So, been thinking (I know, a dangerous thing, ha ha)...<p>What does everyone else think on this... my WW has no interest in moving out completely - she is clearly afraid of what stands before her as a single woman, and rightly so. She also says she loves me (but not in-love, yada yada), knows I'm a "great guy", etc.<p>I've been Plan A'ing for a while now. But now that I reflect on it, probably not the best darn Plan A ever. When this started, I was way too needy, almost smothered the life out of her. So I backed off. Maybe too much. Now I feel that to do a really good Plan A, I need to increasingly find my way back into her heart, and that might involve more notes, etc. - doing things that might come across as needy again, I don't know.<p>In thinking about how to accomplish this, my instinct now is to do these kinds of things, but act like they're really casual, second-nature kind of stuff. If she makes a snide remark or something, I'll take it as a sign to back-off, but if she doesn't say anything negative, hey, good news - I'm achieving something good. I think she is becoming more open to some things, but not SF or anything but mild affection - we certainly seem to be doing fine with conversation and other EN. I've been subtly stressing my strong points that OM clearly can't meet.<p>I wrote her a really heart-felt note last night, and actually got an unprompted "I love you" out of it - wow! I e-mailed her today too - trying to build on positives, but of course, don't want too much too fast.<p>Recently she said that just the thought of being married to ANYONE kind of makes her sick - a bit of a downer for me, but ever the optimist, I noticed the ANYONE word, making me wonder about her and OM's state.<p>Geeze, I sound like a love-struck teen or something, eh?<p>Sounds like a Plan? (Yeah, you can probably tell I'm just fishing for some reassurance today!)

If she is still contacting OM then you may have a long road ahead of you.<p>Only you are the best judge of how much and how often to push. If you can keep to the small stuff then that is the safest. It is a bit of a longer road on your plan A but if you do make a loss it is a small loss. <p>Keep revising your plan A if you need to as sometimes we look at things in the wrong light when we should take time to reflect and possible pursue a slightly different course.<p>Sounds like you are on the right track.

Hi... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I can't give you any advice other than what I have done & what seems to work or not.<p>My H has been a serial cheater for 13 years. DDay was 2/01...I had NO idea.<p>Anyway, after doing alot of the wrong things I finally realized that what I wanted was him & our marriage, but what I also wanted more than anything was to be happy & feel whole again.<p>The less dependent I (acted) was the more he seemed to want me. The less I talked about the OP the more he wanted me. If I treated him the way he always said he wanted to be treated he got happier with me.<p>I definately have been kissing his butt for 9 months, but he says he's "in love" with me now. <p>Now I can start to work on what I want & need. It's not easy, I'm dealing with a very selfish person who only sees his needs, but he is slowly starting to see the light.<p>I am actually getting him to talk more about his A's in a healthy way that doesn't "threaten" him.<p>I think most WS feel pretty lousy about what they have done. They know it's wrong, but don't have enough self esteem or control to stop. This low self esteem really is the key.<p>Your wife probably doesn't feel very good about herself (regardless of what she says). And because of this the last thing she is going to do is put herself in any vulnerable situation.<p>Usually the thing that threatens them the most is admitting the "truth" to us because it really is the final acknowlegment of what they have done & become....not very pretty.<p>See why the OP makes it feel better?<p>I hope you can work things out. Try & remember what it was that you did together before you were married. What did you have to do to keep her interested in you etc etc...<p>Good Luck.<p>Lisa

Well, I think it is a good sign that she told you she loved you, but then I guess it does depend on her definition of love. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I think you can feel reassured that she still needs you in a big way so that works to your advantage. She is obviously terrified of being single again, also to your advantage should you decide to move into Plan B! <p>I know, that sounds scary for you, but Plan B might yank her back into reality by helping her to recognize the value of your marriage, while at the same time preserve your love for her.

J.R.<p>
If anyone ever did a perfect plan a, I would be completely amazed. Don't be hard on yourself about mistakes along the way, the majority of the non-MB BS in the world react to this curve ball of life with anything but compassion and understanding, so by just choosing to not start WWIII you have shown yourself to be some one who is emotionally mature with some honor and nobility. Please try to remember that with every step you take. <p>As far as the "I love you" comment, it's not bad, but try not to put too much meaning behind it. WS that are still in contact are like love struck teenagers on a major hormonal roller coaster. They'll flip flop around the top of the fence post like a fish out of water. So it's best to just look at those fluke occurrences with an attitude of "wish it meant more but at least I'm not getting yelled at". <p>The "not being married thing" is something a lot of us BS guys hear. I think it&#8217;s a freedom thing, they see marriage as a jail to there new definition of happiness. Even with the fear of going solo in life seems easier than being accountable to another person. Once again, and I know it&#8217;s hard, just don't give this type of talk too much weight in what's really going on with her and/or an indicator of her intended path. <p>Plan-b&#8230; It's up to you, if you can continue living in this way. It's not about getting her to do anything differently in her life other than how she interacts with you. <p>
HI

Hi,<p>>>> Keep revising your plan A if you need to as sometimes we look at things in the wrong light when we should take time to reflect and possible pursue a slightly different course. <<<<p>Yes, I can see how revising one's perspective is important over time. What seemed like a good approach may not always be that way, and changing things up is sometimes good - got that book by Susan Page - has some good ideas, for sure.<p>>>> I think most WS feel pretty lousy about what they have done. They know it's wrong, but don't have enough self esteem or control to stop. This low self esteem really is the key. <<<<p>Yes, this is definitely true for my WW, I think. I read in one place that romantic love is really driven by self-love that's supported by someone else, and that's what's happened here, I think. She has self-esteem issues, and my really big mistake was in forgetting that fact (although I can't say that to her, or it's a big LB [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] ).<p>>>> I know, that sounds scary for you, but Plan B might yank her back into reality by helping her to recognize the value of your marriage, while at the same time preserve your love for her. <<<<p>Well, it's becoming less and less scary as I become more and more disillusioned. My feelings are slowing changing, but at the same time, I'm willing to reset my focus on Plan A. Just when I feel like giving up, I pull myself together and refocus. I need to do that a few times, I think, before my feelings will be changing "for real". It's only been 3 months, so I need to keep remembering that others have been doing this for much longer. And I have some specific plans for things to do for myself over the next couple of months that might be important in creating an environment that she SHOULD want to be a part of. But at the same time, I think of "a quick blow-out is better than a slow leak" - it just seems the longer this goes on, the more negative she becomes, the more attached she is to OM, etc. - maybe a crisis is needed... thinking out loud now.<p>>>> As far as the "I love you" comment, it's not bad, but try not to put too much meaning behind it. WS that are still in contact are like love struck teenagers on a major hormonal roller coaster. They'll flip flop around the top of the fence post like a fish out of water. So it's best to just look at those fluke occurrences with an attitude of "wish it meant more but at least I'm not getting yelled at". <<<<p>Yes, the fog is there, clearly. It's even something she can see for herself! In my letter, I said that "I missed her" i.e. the woman I married. She said "yeah, I miss her too". Another example - she sneezed, I said "God bless you", she replied "Yes he has, I'm just screwing it up." So, maybe unlike some WS, she it quite aware that her mental state is whacked - but she still can't do anything about it, it would seem.<p>So yes, she is seeing OM - daily in fact, they work together quite closely. She "works late" more now than ever, but here I am, smiling and welcoming her hope happily, even in the face of who knows what. I know she's feeling tremendous guilt, though. Her whole reason for the d-days to date were to get these things off her chest - unburden her dishonesty over the years. By continuing this, though, she's building new reasons to feel guilty, and I know that troubles her deeply. A part of me really believes she's going to do something after Christmas - either break it off with OM or try to leave. We're going home for Christmas, being with our families is going to be so hard on her, plus she'll be doing some mini-withdrawal - gosh I don't look forward to that. But there's some opportunity embedded in there for me to demonstrate some things about myself that she needs to appreciate as well.<p>I'm starting to ramble, so I guess it's time to close off for now.<p>Hope everyone has a good day!