is that people do a poor job of mate selection in the first place? So many marriages seem to be comprised of one person who does not want to divorce no matter what, and one who is less willing to be married just to be married. It is simplistic to call one committed and one selfish. In any event the huge divorce rate suggests really only one thing, and that is we don't really understand the person we marry very well. I wonder what we can do about that. I wonder often if all the committed bs here had chose each other instead, whether they would have had stable marriages..... or STILL had disharmony (if they didn't get to know each other real well first). I also wonder if the ws were married to each other whether their marital failure rate would be any different than the bs's.

snl<p>Have you done anything to try and improve your relationship with your spouse?<p>Do you have any soulutions to improve your marriage?<p>Do you know what your spouse's EN's are? <p>What EN's do you have that your S isn't meeting?

Barring psychological problems...drug and/or alcohol addictions...mental and/or physical cruelty that is a 'surprise...'
I'm sure you will NOT be surprised that I think it is LESS about WHO we pick and MORE about HOW we treat one another.<p>Frankly...SnL...I think you could keep EVERYTHING you know now...and PICK the absolute person...but unless YOU have learned something about YOURSELF and the TREATMENT of others...I think you'd find yourself in a similar boat...<p>Changing mates rarely changes YOUR own issues.<p>Basically...you have to be able to practice a blend of taking care of yourself and acting with good will towards your spouse...the very things that usually occur at the beginning of MOST relationships...then we get LAZY and SELFISH....<p>The relationship becomes a power struggle and a battle of wills...who is right in the marriage is becomes the central theme...<p>No, I don't not think it is so much MATE selection..but that it is that most of us don't act 'authentically' in our young relationships...then when the relationship becomes 'old,' we take each other for granted and are lazy in taking care of ourselves AND one another. Much as you'd like to argue otherwise...it takes a lot of work to keep that naive, young relationship alive...especially if one or both of you has a propensity towards lovebusting in some way.<p>Cali

Or maybe the huge divorce rate suggests that we really don't understand what it means to be married? <p>Who the heck knows??<p>But, why waste your time pondering this. Get a move on and do something positive for your marriage and yourself today!
[img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

SNL,<p>Interesting thoughts... compatibility and understanding I think can be misleading. WW and I took a personality profile test from our MC recently. MC was surprised by the results - we were nearly exactly alike! (Feeling / Judgemental / Intuitive / ?? - can't remember the last)<p>Did we really understand and KNOW each other upon marriage? Aparently not as you can tell by my sig - she was cheating on me even before we were married, but held her happy smile at all costs. I ask myself regularly now - what was THAT all about? She was obviously confused. Built a wall around that "little secret" that probably kept us farther apart than either of us would have liked. (Steve noted - yeah, I could have probably been Don Juan and still had these problems - a secret like that will destory a relationship, especially kept so long.)<p>So I don't have my head up my butt right now. I ask myself - do we really belong together? I mean, if we reconcile this thing, do I want her next to my side till the day I die? I don't know. Maybe I'm a bit different than many out there who cling based on fear or other negative things. I desire based on a belief that we do share a 13 year history that has much value, despite her "revisionist history" being played out - even though I admit - for her, it's real. I also know from so many other experiences, her "revisionist history" account may very well change over time, especially if I'm gone for a while. So I said "I desire". Yeah - desire, not NEED. I don't NEED our relationship. I prefer to work on it, because I think it has value for both of us, based on a rational analysis - and an emotional one too (she admits she loves me - would call me if on a doomed plane, for example - a "deep love", that she doesn't have for OM yet, but would probably like a chance to "explore" I suppose).<p>I think this understanding - need vs. desire - that has helped me get to where I am right now. Where is that? I'm not sure, but not freaking out at all. Probably resigning myself to what appears to be an inevitable Plan B - for myself. I need to protect my self-respect, let alone my love for her. This is becoming ridiculous.<p>Anyhow, I digress. I thought I knew WS so very well before marriage - 5 years worth. I was trying to be cautious - 5 years seemed like enough time to really know. But I was also young. I was also unaware of what went into many relationships, only having had our parents to go by in many ways. We're smart people - very well educated, I've got a well paying job, etc. But if relationships were about smartness, things would be a lot better, I guess. I think we as a society are trained with many skills before we marry, but dealing with real-world problems in real-world relationships is just something that is inferred, assumed and glossed over (especially by Hollywood) - maybe that's an area we can improve on.<p>Anyhow, WW is late tonight, so I had some time to ramble.... Next!

patient, I wasn't looking for anything with this post, just becoming more and more perplexed, confused, about marriage. All it is is a legal contract, mostly economicaally based (since that is all you can really regulate). The rest is what we agonize over. There really is no reason to live in intimacy with anyone, so why do we do it, and why do we try so hard to hang on to someone who mistreats us, or expresses no interest in being "married"? But I will answer you questions anyways...<p>patient...Have you done anything to try and improve your relationship with your spouse?<p>snl...yes.<p>patient...Do you have any soulutions to improve your marriage?<p>snl...yes<p>patient...Do you know what your spouse's EN's are?<p>snl..yes <p>patient...What EN's do you have that your S isn't meeting? <p>snl...I have concluded that the en model is fundamentally flawed. You cannot reduce human existence to a laundary list of 10 needs. The complex interplay of interaction between humans that is expressed in the intimate bond we call in-love is far more than simply mechanistically meeting a list of needs. It is not so simple as saying my w isn't meeting need a, or need b, that implies she is not perceptive enough to do so, or selfishly chooses not to. IMO it is not possible for just anyone to meet the "needs" of someone, no matter how hard they try.<p>I pretty much know all my wifes needs on paper, and how to meet them, and to the degree I do it makes her feel much better toward me. The issue is motivation, she wants me to want to do it voluntarily (so to speak) not just do it as a duty (I think most of us feel that way). I don't know how well my w understand me, not very well I think. But while I can see and appreciate her efforts to meet my needs, it really makes no difference to me whether she does or not, I feel no different. I don't hide, I am a talker, she knows all she needs to know about me (if she wants to apply herself).... some of it she does not like, and does not want to deal with, and expects me to change.... why should I change who I am?<p>All this really bothers me a lot. I feel so unfair to her, she wants so bad to be loved, and chosen, and pursued, and I just want to be her friend, not her spouse, then she gets so angry and says terrible things, and I wonder how can this be love (for me). It seems all I do is make her unahppy, she has never been happy with me, she just settled. We talked some today about how being married should be about passion, and not just caring, (as steve and jenn both have told us, caring does not make a successful marriage, cause is like being married to your sibling). She said she disagreed, that she can settle for just caring. This is the kind of fundmental paradigm difference that makes for very unhappy marriages. I think many feel like she does, that passion is not necessary, just be kind and decent to each other, and cohabitate with safe sex, passion is too ephemeral, too dangerous.

JR I too had a 5 year relationship before marrying. The difference is I did know my w, who she was, and her issues, pretty much, the problem was I didn't know myself well enough. I knew we were going to have problems, that the marriage was a roll of the dice, I thought I could go the distance, could "fix" everything.....if I had been properly trained in marital psychology I would have known better. Also never in a million years would I have thought I could be a ws. I was one of the folks you hear here so often saying how their morals and and ethics insure they would never do such a thing.

snl,<p>Honestly? I think that we tend to complicate this issue too much. Having a happy marriage is relatively simple. So simple, in fact, it's almost ridiculous. Provided that you marry someone who is a decent human being and relatively sane (no alcohol/drug issues, no bizarre psychiatrict disorders, etc.), there are only three ingredients that I feel are necessary:<p>1. Courtesy and respect - first and foremost
2. A good imagination when the newness wears off the relationship
3. Optimism - having faith in yourself and your partner.<p>Trouble is, it only works if both parties are working in tandem - with each other, and not against each other. Once you begin to slide down that slope into marital decline, reviving the momentum of the marriage - and of the love and passion that you want so much - is very difficult.<p>I have seen very happy older couples who are crazy, goofy in love. And they all seem to share these traits - courtesy toward each other, a verve for life, and a strong faith in each other. It can happen and does happen. It's just very rare. We are a jaded lot, some of us. And I'll be the first to admit that I have very little faith.<p>belld

I agree bell, but where I think the conflict is, is that one can just "do it". I think the things you describe are the outcome of marriage between two people who fit together. I think in theory it is possible for 2 very decent, caring, people to "make" themself appear happily married...but I think the reality is they would not be passionate, and I think you could sense the difference if you set them down next to a passionate long term marriage....the issue is the passion, that is the characteristic of in-love, it only exists with couples who are in-love (and it is often not there even when you think it is). I don't think marriage is simple at all, we (humans) are incredibly complex organisms. Mating is a very important behaviour, it makes a lot more sense to me that in the millions of potential combinations humans could enter into maritally, there is going to be a gradient, a bell curve perhaps, of marital success (measured emotionally, physically, psychologically). Cohabitation is the bulk of the curve, the lower end is abusive toxic marriages, and the high end is in-love marriages. I think we do ourselves a serious diservice thinking successful mnarriage is just a matter of good will and committment. In so doing we will not do the serious indepth work of understanding ourselves and prospective mates (and how we fit maritally with them, before marrying), instead figuring we will just work it out....not realizing it may not be possible to work it out. If were as easy as just doing it, decideing to be happy, be nice, then we would not have the divorce rates we do, and only 10-20% of marriages satisying any reasonable objective of being safe, healthy, passionate places for both spouses.

snl,<p>Can't believe I'm agreeing with you on so many things, lol! <p>I posted to you on another thread about this: there is also the danger of not really knowing who you are married to. How can one possibly predict the outcome of a marraige? Can we ever know each other *that well* before we pitch our tent and set up shop together? Sometimes I wonder if it's not just a luck of the draw.<p>I think of all of the times that I've been "in love" with "the one." Well, turns out that all of those relationships ended up toxic and bad; but when I look back on it, the relationships in which I had the most peace of mind were the happy relationships - where I felt valued and respected, where there was an 'activity' going on that surpassed just the physical. Where I had a partner with similar goals and beliefs and aspirations. I didn't appreciate it then, because I was too young and too enthralled with the "bad boys." But boy, do I ever appreciate it now.<p>Perhaps it's that when some of us got married we lacked the wisdom to really know what is important in a mate. To my mind, part of having a passionate marriage is being passionate about one's own life and one's own dreams and goals and aspirations and to find a like-minded soul. To have that never-ending curiosity about life, and to find out something new about the person you're with on an every day level. To keep being interested in that person - not necessarily a sexual passion (of course that figures into it), but an intellectual passion - a passion for their life, as well as your own. Being with a passionless person can and does such the passion for living right out of you. I'm right there wearing the name tag.<p>It's late and I'm prolly not coherent, but I think we're somewhat on the same page. Your thoughts?<p>belld

Good point bell, one I had not thought about it a long time. I do think being passionate about yourself and life, and letting that light shine is a part of it. It will draw those of like mind, and you will be passionate for each others stuff (another component of in-love I think). This whole notion of changing to fit your spouse works against this, both of you give up your passion and lose something in so doing. This aspect of poja disturbs me, cause to apply it you may have to give up things you are passionate about, for the marriage, but in so doing you may give up part of the mystery.<p>It is far too common, and sad, to hear folks speak about how they were valued for who they were while dating, but as soon as the marital door closes behind them they are expected to change, and chastised/abused for who they were. Maybe in a way that is even how the badboy thing works. The attraction, then the marriage, then the attempt to reform the badboy...in a way, that is a betrayal too......right?<p>bell... there is also the danger of not really knowing who you are married to. How can one possibly predict the outcome of a marraige? Can we ever know each other *that well* before we pitch our tent and set up shop together? Sometimes I wonder if it's not just a luck of the draw<p>snl...Yes, I think we can, in spades. We just don't make enough effort, and dating is the worse possible way to know someone. You need to make them a part of your life....work with them, bring them home (or with friends etc.) alot, volunteer with them, talk about all variety of things, be friends, not dates...and careful about the physical relationship (but kissing is good). The biggest problem is the speed with which we marry, it should take at least a couple years of exculusive relationship to marry.

snl,<p>I think you pinged it on the head when you brought up the friendship aspect. Friendship and being best friends with each other is *the* single most important thing in a marriage. I never was best friends with my H - honestly, I can say that now. I was attracted to him and blown away by his intelligence and his wit. But never did I have that sense of equitability and "balance" that I have with some of my close friends and family members. <p>When people bring up the "friendship" word, seems like everybody gets all wriggly and evokes warm thoughts of new puppies and Hallmark cards and taking tango lessons. But the friendship that I think you are talking about - at least the kind that I'm talking about - is the ability to reach out with one's self, without facade and without defensiveness, and reveal one's true self to one's spouse. Your spouse doesn't know you as well as the best friend you've known since grade school. <p>Friendship, on a more ethereal level ... well, I'm not sure if you've read any Rilke, but he uses the metaphor of two trees growing side by side, each protecting each other's solitude. If they are too entwined, they cut off each other's roots; if they are too far apart, they cannot shield each other from the storm. That is the more poetic vision of the love that I want and expect. I have seen it, and I know that it exists. <p>Re., POJA: The POJA does have limits. IMHO. I feel that it can teach us simple things, such as tolerance and courtesy. In Harley's book, he uses a story involving a couple who go shopping - the wife wants to look at shoes, the husband hates shopping. So they negotiate that the wife will only stay in the store for X-amount of time. To me that is an equitable compromise, and if applied wisely, it can work. But my question is: why should two healthy people need this tool in order not to sweat the small stuff? I personally feel that two good communicators/negotiatosr can figure these things out without feeling as though they are making a huge sacrifice (falling again under my definition of courtesy and respect). I could give you a billion examples of this, but I think you get the idea.<p>belld

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong>is that people do a poor job of mate selection in the first place? </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Yes, which is why I plan to tell my kids if you have a doubt, then DO NOT marry that person!!! Regardless. Everything inside of you should be screaming YES when you decide to who to marry.<p>Personally, knowing that I chose the right person was (during our most difficult times) the only thread holding it together, and it was enough for us--even more than MB principles which we both have embraced since March 2001.

snl,<p>My belief is that marriages fail due to lack of marital and relationship skills. People do not know how to solve conflict, people have unrealistic expectations about what a marriage "should be" and people, in general lack good relationship manners.<p>Look at TV. It portrays the American dream in idealized ways. Couples in movies rarely have to deal with real problems - lack of money, ailing parents, teenage angst, problems of too many pressures and not enough time. No, relationships are often idealized and we see beautiful people doing fun and beautiful things. I can't recall any movies where I saw the actors/actresses doing mundane housework and fretting over bills, etc. I believe that a majority of peole still have the Cinderella/Prince Charming fantasy, and if they wake up one day and realize they aren't experiencing that, they think something is wrong. They are "missing" something.<p>No doubt some people do choose the wrong mate. But, I think more often people do choose a suitable mate, and then they don't know how to adapt as their mate grows and changes, or their mate does not know how to adapt as they grow and change. Lack of marital skills is a biggie. <p>I do think you personally might underestimate this. I have read alot of your posts on "fit". I think what has happened to you and Thinker is that you have both changed and grown over the years, but have not adapted well to the changes and growth in each other. If you do D, snl, and you pick another mate or companion that you fit with now, what will happen as the years go by and you and she change and grow? Will you adapt? Will she adapt? If you both don't, then you will no longer "fit". If you can't learn and demonstrate the skills now, how will you be successful later on?<p>Take care, Desiree

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Could it be the primary reason marriages fail is that people do a poor job of mate selection in the first place? <hr></blockquote><p>Nope...I don't believe this is why marriages are failing. I think the majority of married people (on their wedding day) believe that they are choosing wisely...I think they DO BELIEVE that THEY ARE marrying their soulmate.<p>What goes wrong then?<p>Well, I personally think Roll Me Away described it perfectly: marriages fail due to lack of marital and relationship skills. People do not know how to solve conflict, people have unrealistic expectations about what a marriage "should be" and people, in general lack good relationship manners. (Thanks, RMA [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] !!!)<p>Peace, ~Marie

Yes, poor mate selection is a key to SOME failed marriages. That was the case in my first two marriages. I married men who did not have the capacity to love anyone but himself or herself. My current husband is a much better choice. Though flawed as we all are, he is a very loving man. It makes a great difference.<p>The point of MB is that no choice of a spouse is perfect. Perfect does not exist. But where there was once love, if BOTH people will work at it the love can be restored. Yes, there could very well be a BETTER match out there. But it’s not likely.<p>Why? Because most people marry because they love their spouse. More often then not, the love dies from neglect. Simple neglect. MB teaches who to nurture the love and overcome the neglect.

SNL: I&#8217;ve read a great deal of your posts over the last several months. I agree to an extent on much of what you say. Many of my perceptions are slightly different, perhaps that can be attributed to the fundamental difference in perspectives of the WS and the BS. Who knows if our roles reversed if our opinions would&#8230;.<p>I&#8217;ve given a fair amount of thought to the &#8220;fitting&#8221; you talk about and how it is at odds with the behaviorist&#8217;s model of what creates the in-love we all seem to crave. I don&#8217;t believe they are mutually exclusive. I believe that fit is important and plays a role in that we are more likely to be attracted to someone we think we fit with. A person we fit with will have to do much less work to make enough deposits into the bank to reach the in-love threshold. This doesn&#8217;t exclude someone that isn&#8217;t quite as well suited from reaching that threshold, only means they will have to make significantly more deposits. <p>I believe the fit aspect plays a secondary role after the relationship is established. It&#8217;s the nature of our courtship rituals that leads to so many problems, we put our best foot forward and that &#8220;fit&#8221; is often contrived. After the newness is gone and we show our true selves, we have the options of becoming disillusioned and bitter or building the relationship we desire. This is where behavior takes the primary role. Live as if you have the relationship you desire and there&#8217;s a very real possibility that it will develop.<p>Regarding POJA: I think I may look at this a bit differently than most do here. My W absolutely despises this aspect of the Harley method but she sees it as an absolute. I&#8217;m not as literal in my definition. For example my W is a crafter, she quilts, paints, does needlepoint, knits, etc&#8230; She is extremely talented. I am a musician (semi-pro). Neither of us are willing to give these things up, they&#8217;re a huge part of who we are. She believes that under POJA we would have to.<p>I may not be enthusiastic about quilting and she absolutely despises the music I play but I love that aspect of her and she loves that in me. While I will never share her love for quilting, I am very enthusiastic about it because I know how much she loves it and the pleasure it brings her. This is enough reason for me to become enthusiastic. From that perspective, I&#8217;ve sat down and learned to quilt with my W, and she comes to my gigs to listen to me play. We can support each other enthusiastically because of how much these things mean to the other. Doesn&#8217;t this meet the spirit of POJA? <p>One last thought&#8230; I agree that the needs and desires of a person can&#8217;t be cataloged in a questionnaire. I believe that what can be taught through these concepts are the behaviors that allow us to meet each others needs no matter how ephemeral they are. It&#8217;s the skills learned in meeting the cataloged and obvious needs that allow us to meet the more elusive desires. I think of the EN concepts as learning to walk. We can develop the skills to run on our own if we&#8217;re taught to walk.

I think zorweb could read my mind. SHe said exactly what I could say about this. <p>I was just thinking this morning... about what I miss, what I'm fighting for, what I LOVE. I was pursued by my H. I was not interested in him... he romanced me and I fell in love. SO where are we now? What do I feel for him? Sure my love bank is very low, due to my 7 months of Plan A and being separated, and divorce pending.... but when I saw him for 10 minutes yesterday, I'm not sure what I felt. <p>Yesterday, I felt the love we once shared, and the life we had, and the comfortable, safe feeling of sharing the rest of my life with that man. I didn't feel all tingly and mushy, like I HAD to hold him or anything. But I remember the feeling very well.<p>Did I really fall in love with HIM 11 years ago? Or did I fall in love with *being in love*, and *being loved*? Or did I fall in love gradually, as I got to know him? <p>Anyway, I know I love him, and I love what we had. I know he loved me, and loved what we had. <p>Just like the Harley principles, and as several have said here, if we don't re-evaluate the way we feel about our spouse, the way we are striving to meet their needs, and they meet ours, we can become complacent, and the passion can fade. If we can follow pro-active growth steps, to maintain or improve relationshops, they can be fulfilling and long-lasting. Everything changes... nothing remains the same... everything is either growing or dying.<p>just my 2cents today.... thanks for making us think, snl. Sometimes we can over-think... we should just live and enjoy.

Honestly...maybe this is simplistic...but...<p>barring addiction or other mental disorders...<p>I don't buy the "fit" excuse. If you fit enough to marry in the first place...then there is room to choose to become compatible. Real mature love is a decision.<p>I think the real reason most marriages fail is that we live in a society that does not know how to behave with 1. self-love, and 2. selflessness.<p>I am becoming more and more sensitive to disrespectful judgements and selfish demands - and all I have to do is turn on the television to see them depicted as "normal" or "right" in marriage. I watch as spouses insult and ridicule each other, make power plays with selfish demands, and basically run rampant disrespectfully all over each other. And this is "love".<p>Even my housekeeper told me the other day that I hadn't "trained" my H right. I was horrified that she said that, but I also realize that not only did SHE not see anything wrong with what she said, but that several years ago...neither would I.<p>I do think that there is a HUGE problem with addiction in our society, and the result is that for every addict not getting treated, there are multiple co-dependents not getting treated. These spiritual and emotional dysfunctions are passed down generation after generation...and the sick, twisted ways of thinking are becoming modern day conventional wisdom.<p>No wonder that the divorce rate is so high. <p>No one has ever shown us (society) how to treat ourselves with love, and how to serve and love others at the same time.<p>We only seem to "get it" after we hit bottom...after disaster has affected us...and our lives become completely torn up and turned upside down.

Oh and btw...snl....<p>are you willing to have your wife meet your needs...really and truely?<p>Because I don't get the impression that you are.<p>I experienced this with my H during our first "reconciliation" which was entirely fake.<p>He wasn't willing to have me meet his needs, so while he went thru the motions (appeasement is what Steve Harley called it) my efforts were completely ineffective.<p>The second time around, my H was willing to have me meet his needs. And the difference is like night and day.<p>I have an H who now tells me that he loves me.<p>He didn't feel "emotionally connected" to me the first time around. He was simply going through the motions so that he could say to himself and everyone around him that he tried. He was simply looking for a justification for divorce that wouldn't make him feel guilty.<p>You sound just like him.