hmmmm.... Everyone: thank you all for your responses. Lots to think about.<p>snl, shortest answer I've ever seen from you!!! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] and I am ALWAYS sure to express my gratitude for your thoughts and opinions. If you care to elaborate on your answer, I would appreciate it. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>saved by grace [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] thanks! And I'm glad I brought you out of the lurking shadows. <p>I'm going to work on a letter on Sunday sometime - at least for myself - to get it down on paper. I don't know why I'm feeling so strongly about this. Thank you all for your thoughtful answers. I would welcome more, if anyone else has 2 cents. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Faith1,<p>Here's my 2 cents:<p>First, I would call Steve Harley.<p>Second, I don't think calling OW or meeting with her will do any good. You may just hear things that will hurt you. I know you worked on a plan B letter. I would perfect it and send a copy to him and OW. This will give you a chance to let your H know you still believe in your marriage, but the pain is too much for you to bear. It will also allow the healing to begin for you. Sending her a copy will make it clear how you feel, regardless of what your H may be telling her. You don't need to hear what she has to say, you just need to make it clear where you stand. I intend to do the same thing very soon. <p>sad dad

thanks, sd. Yes,I was thinking the same thing... that my plan B letter will communicate to her what I want. I had decided to put off Plan B until after Christmas, or until I get served, whichever happens first, so I was getting itchy to say something to her before she gets the Plan B letter. thanks sooooo much for your input. it means a lot [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Faith
Called the om last week and met with him. In my situation it helped me. I'm not sure it helped our chances of recovery but I felt better. My ww was mad and said the om won't talk to her, i'm hoping time will make her realize how good she has it at home. This is strictly my opinion but I don't think we should stand back and open the doors for the affair to continue. I know forcing it to end isn't the answer but i don't think making it easy to continue is either. my ww isn't thinking clearly now and won't until her affair ends, I've made a decision to fight for our marriage and i'm not going to just sit around and let it end. Our situation are different in that my ww and i still live in the same house, i to;d her to leave and explore her feelings but she won't leave.
In a nut shell, if you would sleep better and feel better, talk to her, just keep your cool and plan what yu want to say. If you are worried that the ow won't be honest with you try this: When i met the om i told him that i knew about alot of the affair but not everything. I told him that all i asked is that he be honest when i ask him questions, i asked him questions that i knew the answer too, as well as ones i didn't. It helped me establish that he was being honest.
Good Luck

yeah I can be succinct on occassion. Actually a few others have pretty much made my points. But in a nutshell I really really dislike anything that smacks of strategy and tactics, and whether it is a LB'er or not ect. Some things transcend whether they are good for our marriage or not. You just do em, and let the chips fall where they will. I have concluded you cannot save or lose a marriage anyways, people are gonna do what they want. But you can increase the odds by being the best person you can be, if one is afraid to behave as who they are, or ethically, cause their spouse might not like it, then I think they are manipulating their spouse, and I personally would not want to be married to such a person. I don't believe in marriage, I beleive in people, and you cannot be the best you can be, worrying about how your behaviour affects whether someone will love you or not.<p>Having said that, IMO secrets are not good things. I think everyone who is affected should know the truth, immediate family, close friends, op family, etc. And I think all the principals should have a face to face communication bs, ws, and op_spouse. This clears the air, exposes all the lies, everyone should be on the same page, and from there all can proceed with the same facts. It makes no difference to me whether that is a good strategy or not for someones personal agenda. Marriages are never destroyed by the truth, they end cause the truth says they should. Nor can they be properly restored without the truth, they will only be a sham. Exposing the truth of what lies behind the mask we all wear, in our hearts, can be a very traumatic thing, there is real risk....but IMO it is well worth any price, cause the truth is the only thing that sets you free, free to choose your life unemcumbered. If we fear losing our marriage, or any relationship, we do not deserve it, because that fear insures we will manipulate to keep it. Fear is the antithesis of in-love, you cannot love someone as man and woman, unless you set them free, every minute of every day.<p>In your case faith, your wish to let the ow know who you are, and how you feel is appropriate, it makes no difference what she thinks or does, nor what your H thinks or does. Do not even concern yourself with such things. A piece of your life is missing, you cannot recover it until you do this. You don't have too, it is your choice, but not doing it cause you wish to manipulate is not good for you. IMO your concerns over outcomes are misdirected, your only concern should be do you need to do this (the outcome will reveal important things you need to know as well, no matter what they are). I also think there is a legitimate reason for ow to know how you feel. She too is in the dark, and while thinking of the ow as a less than human object of hate is common, that harms the hater a great deal more than the ow. However, viewing her with human compassion, and true concern for her well-being sets you free too faith, and may change her in some important way. Keep in mind always, God moves in mysterious ways, and things are rarely as they seem, trust your instincts, pray, and do whatever you decide with courage, not fear.<p>I do not know with certainty the status of my ow. I suspect by now her H has found out. I have wondered what I would say if he contacts me. I am not sure, but I will be truthful, even if he does not like what I have to say. My w has talked to her a couple times after D. The outcome was not particularly helpful, and pretty much just made my w angry, although the ow was cooperative and remorseful, and she respected my w request we stop talking to each other (we knew that had to be, but were having difficulty doing it). I never talked with again after that (about 5 months ago). I don't think what is said is the real importance. I think knowing that the ow, om, spouses etc. are all real live human beings, and where each is coming from is the important thing. Clearly many (of all the parties) will be angry, manipulative, lie, often, that is just the way it works, and just like everything in life, we will get out of it what we put into it. All you have control over is you faith. And if you contact her in the spirit of goodwill, and with the intent to communicate who you are and how you feel, you will be rewarded. If you did so vengefully, aggressively, hurtfully, you are no better than anyone else, and will suffer accordingly...that is how I think life works. But what do I know. Good luck.

Faith1,<p>As far as sending your plan B letter, I wouldn't wait until you get served, it will make it look as if "you did this, so I did this", you know what I mean? Do it when you feel when you need to, not as a reaction to anything your H does.<p>Be careful though. I spoke to Steve about this, and he emphasized that plan B shouldn't be done expecting to get a reaction from my W, it should be done when I just can't take things as they are anymore. Plan B is something I need to do for me. If I do it to get a reaction from her, it is an attempt to manipulate her or control the situation. Once I (or you) go to plan B, there's no turning back, so be sure you're ready. <p>sad dad

Everyone is right, I must not do this with the intent of gaining a certain result. I will either be sorely disappointed, hurt someone, or get hurt myself.<p>sd, you are right. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] thanks [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] the thing is, December is such an emotional month. H's b'day, Christmas (which we have always REALLY celebrated - such special memories), and our anniversary. These thoughts are preventing me from Plan B right now. Plus seeing him the other day proved to me how much I still love him. Otherwise, I would be ready, and I would do it, regardless of H's filing or not.<p>snl, thank you very much for your thoughts. They really do make sense to me.<p>you said: "And if you contact her in the spirit of goodwill, and with the intent to communicate who you are and how you feel, you will be rewarded. If you did so vengefully, aggressively, hurtfully, you are no better than anyone else, and will suffer accordingly...that is how I think life works."<p>I agree, and this is my intention, but my doubts lie in keeping the purpose intact in my wording with her, when emotions may get in the way. I believe a letter is the best option for me, cuz I DO feel a need to communicate in an honest and respectful way, and face to face will not be a good idea for me. <p>snl, I won't spend a lot of time on this point, but I do disagree with one of your points, in that I believe we SHOULD modify our behaviors to a certain degree, for the sake of our spouse, IF it is a modification for the good. Why not learn self-control... biting you tongue until the anger has passed? or resisting the urge to "teach" or "preach"? Fear exists when we KNOW we have bad habits, and we don't want to hurt others by displaying them. When I drive over the speed limit, I fear getting a ticket. I CHOOSE whether or not I want to risk that. When we CHOOSE our behavior in relationships, we are also choosing whether or not we accept the outcome; i.e., an unhappy spouse, vs. biting your tongue and letting yourself be unhappy over that one issue. The "changing oneself" becomes a bad thing when we lose sight of who we are completely, and do everything just to make them happy.<p>Thanks again everyone. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I'm gathering my thoughts on this and feeling much better now. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

faith, yes of course we should "improve" our interpersonal behaviours. We can always improve in that sense. I meant more choosing behaviours solely because we think our spouse will like us bette (or not be upset etc.), kinda the stuff talked about in the appeasement thread.

gotcha [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Faith1:
<strong> December is such an emotional month. H's b'day, Christmas (which we have always REALLY celebrated - such special memories)</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Faith,
I wanted to comment about this statement. I actually had a conversation w/friend-counselor just today about this very thing! She said not to forget that WH is ALSO feeling all these emotions, too! <p>She said "Don't think for one minute that he isn't torn up inside with thoughts, memories, etc." IF he can "keep all this out of his head, and move ahead w/new life without some thoughts of all the things we've shared in Christmases past," he's a bigger JERK than I thought! Uh, those aren't exactly HER words, but how I interpreted them! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Just wanted you to know that.....that the WS is ALSO having a tough time of it at this time of year, regardless of what they show US!!<p>Love and Prayers to you,
Lupo

thanks, Lupo [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] yep, I figure these thoughts and memories are with him as well, and I'm wondering if that is one reason he has sorta dropped the D issue... perhaps even having second thoughts. I dunno... but it's definitely a possibility.

Hello Faith, So many times I have felt like you and posted similar threads to stop myself. Several weeks ago I broke down and called the OW. It was by no means based on the premise that I would convince her to stay out of the picture and save my marriage. It was my need to express my hurt and my anger. It was my need to know that she understood my emotions and the damage that she helped to cause. It was my need to know if she felt remorse. <p>Guess what? For some strange reason, I felt better. I don't think it was the most intelligent move because it certainly made me more vulnerable. But it proved to me that she is not the warm wonderful human being that my H so aptly described. She's a cold heartless soul who expressed "she's happy to be alive" and she doesn't feel sorry that she loves my H. She rambled on about how our separation wouldn't change relationships, how he would be a better father, how I could continue to be a part of his family, etc...all the BS my H has been spewing and I realised, they are brainwashed. <p>I'm not recommending that you follow through on your need. I'm just trying to prepare you for the possible outcome. Everyone is right. They don't care about your pain and it does expose you. <p>Good luck with your decision.

I too am struggling with sending the OW an email.<p>H sent no contact letter - via email - two weeks ago. He asked for her not to respond, and we haven't heard a peep. However, I just want confirmation that she did receive the darn thing and I let her know in this email (which has been composed but NOT sent) that I love my H and family and that I hope she finds her happiness with her fiance and that she can give him her honesty.
I make it clear I don't want to open things up again and correspond, I just want to know that she "gets it this time" (no, I don't actually say that) and that we can now all move on.<p>I know, I know....99% of the folks here would not be in favour of sending this, but I wonder if it would just make me feel better..close a door for ME in all of this.<p>Hmmmm.

I don't intend to post here much, but as I stated before, this thread does hit really close to home. I must say, there is a real difference between an email an a face to face pow wow. If XMM's wife had sent me an email instead of me meeting her, the A probably would still be going on. Just speaking honestly so please do not get upset. It's NOT my intention to upset anyone here. Believe me, I KNOW it was wrong, but I had been in MM's house and seen pictures of his W but it was still just a picture. It is a lot easier to get misunderstanding from an email. Someone may feel that something was written with a nasty undertone when it was actually not. As I said before, by me actually sitting and talking with Xmm's Wife, it allowed me to see the hurt, the anger, the betrayal....all the things that I myself experienced a few years ago. It allowed me to empathize with her and know that what she was feeling was REAL. It made me as a person, sit back and remember what I felt with my first love. We weren't even married so i could only imagine that what she was feeling was ten times worse. During the A, XMM led me to believe that his W had her own thing going, that she had no time for him, was not interested in him, she only stayed so that she could SAY that she was married...all lies. He even told me once when I asked him what she would do if she found out that, "she wouldn't even care. As long as I didn't leave and ruin her 'status' of being married, she wouldn't have too much to say about it." Then again, maybe he wasn't lying. Maybe since they weren't effectively communicating that's how he honestly felt. I don't know. What I do know, is that in my situation, it helped. Everyone isn't like me though and I do know there are SOME OW out there that would delight in seeing a BW's pain.

I did actually speak with OW twice in May 2000 shortly after Dday#1. She and I had long conversations, we both laughed, we both cried. She did realize I was a real person and not the "*itch from hell" my H painted me as. (Which he did, and I'm not denying I wasn't always a lot of fun back then...)At any rate - we live far away from OW - we're in Alberta - she's in northern Minnesota and I only know her work phone number - which I don't plan on calling.<p>Anyway - the most recent contact between my H and her were very very emotional on her part. H realized that he must just cut off contact with her, he couldn't exchange the odd email or phonecall because it just escalated with her feeling her love for him all over again (even tho she's supposedly getting married) and him getting caught up with it, telling her he loved her, but not totally engaging at the same intensity. He told me he found it all alluring and exciting, but realizes how unfair it was to her and me.<p>Anyway - I'm still struggling with sending her this final email. On one hand, I want to know she got his email and she "gets it" now but on the other hand I don't want to open up another can of worms.<p>Sorry Faith for hijacking your thread!<p>[ December 10, 2001: Message edited by: Alberta ]</p>

Faith,
SNL has never spoken more true or more meaningful words on this forum. I think he has detailed perfectly the reasons you should do exactly what your heart tells you to.
Please let us know what happens.<p>Best,
Wiffle

saved by grace: You sound as if you are very sorry for your affair with a MM and the hurt that you caused his wife. Wsa your affair with MM "emotional" or "physical" or both? Do you or he have children. If so, how has the affair affected them? Are you married? And if so were you honest with your husband about your affair? You said that you were in his house and saw pictures of his wife, does his wife know this? Just trying to understand my own situation by talking to others like you who have found their self in this situation....I appreciate any insight that you might share.

HI- SNL doesn't have all the facts correct. I am the recipient of the OW calling me. She was not cooperative and remorseful. <p>She called me after her and my H had a harsh communication with each other on the phone. Remember she lives 2000 miles away. She called me to identify herself as D**i. I said D**i who, and she said from Arizona. I said what do you want? She said she wanted to talk. I told her it is not a good time. Our business line was very busy that day with service calls. I told her I can't right now. She said she needs to talk, I said we will have to talk between the calls coming in, and I told her it is your money. All in all we talked about 25 minutes in 1 hour. I just put the phone down so she could hear me take calls. She said she was sorry for all that she had one. I told her she was a liar, and I don't trust her or like her. Anyways, she said please don't tell her H about the affair. She was so depressed and couldn't sleep or eat. She could sleep with my H though. She didn't want her H to know about this affair. This is her second affair in the marriage she has with the same H. Two physical affairs. Which I didn't know at that time it was physical with my H. Anyways, she manipulated me with suicide if we told her H. Said she can't hurt her H. Told me she never loved my H, she has only loved her H always. I asked her why she had an affair with my H, she said I don't know. Also, I asked her other questions and she said I don't know. Asked her if she had sex with my H, and of course she said no. She controlled the conversation and used her words to coerce me into doing what she wanted. <p>She called me the second time. Same thing, saying she is depressed and can't sleep and everything. I wasn't exactly dancing on the tables. She said she is going to tell her H in her own time and in her own way. Told me not to tell H, she will commit suicide again. I should of told her do it. Anyways, I asked at that time if there was a hospital around. Asked her if someone was home to take her to the hospital for emergency suicide threats. Her son was home (adult) I asked to talk to him and she said no you can't talk to him. I wanted her to go to the hospital for help now. She seemed pretty adamant at committing suicide.
I was willing to have the ambulance come to her home and she said don't do that. Anyways, when the conversation was to end, I said will you and your son go to the hospital to get some medical help for you. She said her and her son were going out to do errands and she would think about it. This is a person who used me, to coerce me to think she will commit suicide if my H and I told her H. When I gave her my heart, and concern to get medical help for her, she blasts me in the face with maybe later. What a manipulator. Anyways, I told her I will call her the next time and gave her a day. I told her I will think about not informing her H, because of all she told me, how it will kill him, the pain he will feel, and etc. She doesn't care about all the pain I am feeling. Just what is in it for her-her-her-her!!!!!!! The next time I talk to her, she calls me again 3 days earlier than when I told her I would call her. I was annoyed at that point, and H asks if he could listen to the conversation. H sits on bed with me and listens. Not much to hear, the OW controlled the conversation again. She will commit suicide, and how it will hurt her H to hear about the 2nd physical affair. Anyways, I ended the conversation I will give her a couple of months. H says, after I hang up, you didn't say much, I said I couldn't unless I was rude and butted in all the time. I said I let her be, cause I think she is mentally not stable. Also, in my conversation with the OW, her counselor thought there was something mentally wrong with her. Depression runs in her family. Also, I asked her if her counselor told her that her chances of having another affair were greater now that she had 2 and she said yes. I asked her why she played with my H, she answerd her famous answer (I don't know), asked her didn't she learn from her first physical affair (I don't know), my counselor said this was a cop out verse, didn't have to make a statement, act dumb. <p>Anyways, this is the truth, and SNL needs to become more honest with his statements. <p>We will have a big argument tonight, of course I am the one that gets angry and am the wicked witch of the west. If only you knew how he treated me today. Not going to go into this or that about him. Thanks for listening to the truth of this incident.

thinker,
Thanks for replying, and clarifying that story for us. sighhhhh.... I guess we all have our own versions of what happened. Gosh, I wish there was something we could do for you and snl to help you. There's so much pain caused by A's.... it's just unbelievable, really. And that's proven even more here by the story you just told of the conversations with the OW. The thing is, that logically, we should all be able to get past the pain, and recover and heal, IF we are all willing to lay down our weapons, and allow each other time to heal. I know you two have fought this road to recovery for several months, and it has been long and hard. I pray for you and wish the best for you both.<p>Thanks again for sharing the story of the OW. I dont' think that I want to talk or see my OW. But I still believe I will send a letter.

Faith1,
When my H and co worker OW ended their 2 yr A, I felt as though I was just so much hassle to my H (explinations of lies, etc). The OW never had a bit of concern for me or her own H or any family members. She had affairs with MM before my H. Her present H being one, 5 years ago.
As time went on (DD 6-01)I had built so much resentment towards OW. I started to write a letter. I would go back and edit it, maybe add a thought or two, over and over. It was in the computer for several months.
The knowledge that she didn't have a clue about me, or any concern about the implications of the A, became so great lately that I would imagine her laughing at me. (one night during the A, I was at the office after hours with them and they were in another cubicle laughing while I sat out of sight)
My H had given her a scenario of him doing everything for me and not asking anything in return. The proverbial good guy/white knight. She told her friends I was treated like a "spoiled princess".
Finally I felt I had to send the letter. H sent no contact last summer and thought a letter would start some unwanted contact. I let him read the letter, and he agreed with the contents. When we saw our MC I took a copy of the letter and asked him about sending it to her. Right away he said "no". H said let him read it and MC had me read it aloud. (I have to say hearing the words out loud gave me a clearer meaning of the tone of the letter) When I got done MC said it was very well written and to send it, BUT be prepared for any type of response, from nothing at all to an "in your face" discussion.
I sent the letter last week and there has been no response, other than hang up phone calls started again.
What I wanted you to know is this, I feel better. I needed her to know me and realize that I am a woman, wife, and have my own goals for my life. I did no name calling or any whining, none. I did not want to go there. It does contain some uncomplimentary parts, MC said it would be considered a "dressing down".
I don't know if this will help you. My H is 100% dedicated to our M now, constantly reassuring me, and is contented and at peace now, a total change from the past few years.
As far as face to face, I don't think I would be able to think fast enough to get my feelings across so I chose writing instead.
Lots of help here and different slants on the idea. LAD