Well, my suspicions about seeing OW this afternoon were confirmed tonight. (posted a thread earlier today about it..."think I just saw OW). I knew in my heart it was her. There was just no mistaking those clothes and that hair. <p>The rest of my day was pretty much ruined. By the time tonight rolled around, I was an emotional wreck. Not so much hurt by the fact that she was in town - I've dealt with that before, and can again. But SO angry that H lied to me and that I saw her. He told me on Friday that he would be on his own this weekend.<p>I know why he lied - because I told him in my very excellent Plan A way how I felt about her being in town last weekend. Felt like I couldn't leave the house for the fear of seeing them out. He felt bad, apologised, etc...so he probably lied so that I wouldn't feel that way again. That's always his excuse anyway. He lies so I won't be hurt. Like I'm not hurt already? Like I'm not MORE hurt when I find out he's lied? Give me a break.<p>So at about midnight, I felt I had lost the plot completely. Found myself looking at the scar on my arm again, then feeling pathetic for even considering going down that road. I did the right thing and called my best friend. Without blinking an eye, he came round and got me. I just couldn't be alone. I was panicking and scared and feeling just like I did on Dday. Seeing her brought it all back. <p>Then I did what I really shouldn't have done. Drove by H's house to see if she was really here. Of course she is. It WAS her at the ATM. Felt slightly better for knowing for sure, but then all my sadness turned into anger. I wrote down her license plate number for some reason. Then walked slowly away and left, placing a perfectly formed middle finger up at his window. <p>Got to my friends house and went into rage mode. I am SO angry right now! I feel disgusted by my H and his behaviour and his lies. I feel emotionally abused, abandoned, rejected, ignored, disrespected. I'm feeling, as I type this, that he doesn't deserve me. WHY would I want to spend the rest of my life with someone who can treat his own wife this way?<p>I mean, this man has been texting me, calling me and emailing me ALL WEEK! We go on dates and chat and laugh and have a great time. I have been doing an AWESOME Plan A and have generally felt pretty good about myself and him as well, despite the A. He's got me all week to chat to, then on the weekends, when he's with her, I'm ignored and forgotten, only to be remembered again on Monday. I mean, slimball or what? <p>But now, as I type this? I'm sick to death of it all. I'm fed up. I'm repulsed by the way he is treating me. Keep asking myself if I really want him back. Do I still love him? Where I'm at right now, I want to Plan B him in a very vocal, LB-ing way, telling him exactly how I feel right now. I won't, though. I just want to. <p>I love who I married. And somewhere, deep down, I believe he is still there. I need your help here, people. I know my Plan A has been great - I've felt better personally, and as an added bonus, WH has responded to that. But I feel like all my efforts fly out the window at the weekends. He hooks up with her and suddenly it's "venus who?"
I've come to hate Fridays because they mean two long days of not hearing from him and knowing they are sharing time and a bed together. <p>The anger is unbelievable. I only hope it's gone by the time I wake up in the morning so I don't do anything I'll regret. I know I can't make any decisions about anything right now, because it's 3am, I have MAJOR PMS and my emotions are flying. Hopefully everything will feel better tomorrow. Definitely need sleep. And help. Please help me. <p>venusenvy

Well....good that you found out for sure. You won't drive yourself nuts wondering if you are crazy.<p>The only mistake you made is that you had the unrealistic expectation that because your H was responding to your plan A that he would respond with honesty and maybe even dump that icky OW, and turn back saying "what was I thinking?"<p>But he didn't. Because he's in an addiction, and until the end of the affair, theres nothing you can do.<p>This is the part where Plan A really sucks.<p>Thats why I was emphasizing to you that at this point in my plan A (lots of daily friendly contact) the A had been going on almost 2 years, and was dying quickly. There was ongoing contact and lies while I was plan Aing - but there was an end in sight for me. I also had the benefit of being able to look forward to a divorce - I was starting to see some positive things in getting to start over, and was interested in a friendly relationship with the father of my kids, rather than my H, if that makes sense. Otherwise, I don't know if I would have been able to stand knowing that he was with her every other weekend, and that he was spending alot of weeknights too.<p>If you can do this....do NOT bring it up with your H. IGNORE IT. Swallow the hurt and the pride when he is around, and work that anger out elsewhere. (It's good practice for recovery too - just because I'm recovering doesn't mean I get to take out my anger on H)<p>If you can not do this, then, rather than LB, write that plan B letter.<p>You've done a great Plan A. Rather than set yourself back, let your H get a really hard look at what life without you is going to be.<p>But, I'd really not recommend the plan B route unless you are really prepared to accept that the outcome could be the end of your marriage.<p>So if you can Plan A this, do it. Do NOT fight with your H or contact his OW. It's only going to fuel the flames. I know how bad this hurts.<p>But either which way, exploding at him will only let your H's OW win.<p>Think of it like that if you have to.<p>You explode - she looks good.<p>That't the last thing you want to have happen..right?

Venus<p>Sending you cyber hugs! I am soooo sorry, that the guy you love and trust isn't living up to that standard right now.<p>Maybe he didn't "intend" to be with OW this weekend? I know - that can be pretty far reaching, but it is still a remote possibility. And how would you feel if he really didn't "intend" to be with her this weekend, - it just kinda happened - and he didn't have the guts to tell her no?<p>Just thinking out loud here.... What if.... So - even if it is far reaching to think "what if", if it stalls a lovebuster and helps you gain control - then good.<p>You know, I think your "real" husband was truthful with you, this husband that is with OW is not the "real" guy. This fog-husband is not for real, so hang in there and wait for your "real" husband to return. You are like the MB doctor that will help him return, with you VERY good plan A.<p>Now you will be tempted to talk about how "you" feel when you are with husband, or about your concerns about your marriage. I know it will be sooo very hard to leave it on the shelf - but you gotta, okay?<p>Okay, where is your homework list? I want you to find that list that you made of things that make you happy, and I think it is a good idea if you start making lots of those kinds of plans for the weekends. They are the hardest.<p>Maybe you can just pretend that on the weekends you turn into this person who just doesn't have a fog-husband? I don't know, but you are going to need to find a way to deal with these unexpected set-backs.<p>It took a long time for your marriage to get to this point, I'm sure it is going to take some time to get it back to the point of where you are both secure again with one another.<p>Don't give your husband any reason for chest-pains, be the MB doctor!<p>hugs
TNT

Yep, BrambleRose has it. You LB, you then blow all Plan A effort and OW looks great to your WH.<p>If you feel you're truly losing all love for your H, Venus, then write the Plan B letter. But like BR said, that means you're ready to accept the end of your marriage and can move on from there. Plan B should not be used thinking you'll win your H back, it should be done with sincerity of thought that you're ready to D, if that was to happen.<p>I think you've been a great Plan A'er. You really did "get it", you made changes to yourself which helped you understand that your H's affair is a symptom, not the cause. <p>Personally, I think you have more Plan A in you. this is just a temporary setback, and believe me, being lied to SUX! I validate all your anger, and applaud your patience dealing with your H's crappola. <p>Don't talk with your H until you've calmed down, and when you do talk to him ... DO NOT bring up OW AT ALL ..... okay?<p>You're becoming my hero, Venus ... I read everyone of your posts and I'm amazed at your ability to be so introspective about this whole hurtful thing.<p>You stay strong, Hon. Don't blow all your efforts with one swift LB. We're here for you. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Love,
Jo

Venus,<p>This is a roller coaster ride is'nt it. And it seems that yours is flying full steam ahead. I am sorry that this is causing you so much pain and anger. <p>You need to focus on you, not his actions. Do something wonderfull for yourself. Do not bring this up to him. If he brings it up, remain calm and controlled. I know, WAY easier said than done. (What is'nt in all of this mess) Hang in there, you really are doing a great job.<p>Take Care,
Needing

Hi everyone, and thanks for the support. Still woke up feeling crap, but that's par for the course, really. <p>BR said -"The only mistake you made is that you had the unrealistic expectation that because your H was responding to your plan A that he would respond with honesty and maybe even dump that icky OW..."<p>You're absolutely spot on. I did have that expectation. Because he looked me in the eye on the night he moved out, held me close and said "No more lies. I promise." I will never forget that moment, because I believed him. My friend said to me last night, "why are you surprised?" which is a damn good question. I WANT to believe him, so I guess in a way, I'm in my own fog. This part definitely sucks the most. Believing in/trusting someone for so many years, only to have them rip everything from you overnight. <p>BR said - "But, I'd really not recommend the plan B route unless you are really prepared to accept that the outcome could be the end of your marriage. So if you can Plan A this, do it. Do NOT fight with your H or contact his OW. It's only going to fuel the flames."<p>Again, you're right. I'm SO not ready for Plan B. Even thinking about it upsets me. Thinking about having no contact with my H scares the heck out of me. But then I think maybe that's something I need to think about, too. WHY am I scared? Scared of being alone again? Scared of not having him to lean on when I need him? Well, I certainly don't have him to lean on now, so what's the problem? Perhaps I need to learn to lean on myself a bit more. It's something I touched on in counselling recently. Definitely need to get to that place where being there for me and taking care of me is a comfortable place to be. I miss him, I can't help that. I still love him and that's not going away, either. Despite his abhorent behaviour, I still love this guy. I must be sick in the head!<p>TNT said - "You know, I think your "real" husband was truthful with you, this husband that is with OW is not the "real" guy. This fog-husband is not for real, so hang in there and wait for your "real" husband to return."<p>I hope you're right. I felt like he was being honest with me when he said "no more lies". I FELT it and I believed it. But again, perhaps that's because I wanted to. You're right about this fog H not being real. He's acting SO out of character, it's unbelievable. <p>Resilient said -"Personally, I think you have more Plan A in you. this is just a temporary setback, and believe me, being lied to SUX!...
Don't talk with your H until you've calmed down, and when you do talk to him ... DO NOT bring up OW AT ALL ..... okay?"<p>Agreed, darlin! I will not bring it up. I will not mention I saw her because I know it's the Plan A thing to do. But then won't he feel as though he got away with it? Like a kid stealing candy from a shop - no one says anything, so the kid thinks he is off Scott-Free and will do it again. Doesn't it just open the door for more and more lies? <p>Resilient said - "You're becoming my hero, Venus ... I read everyone of your posts and I'm amazed at your ability to be so introspective about this whole hurtful thing."<p>Thank you SO much. You don't know how big I smiled when I read that. It means the world to me that I feel I'm doing a good Plan A and that my feelings are being validated by everyone here. I only wish I could focus my attention long enough to post advice/support/help to more people here. I sometimes feel so caught up in my own drama that I just can't mustre the energy to help others. Guilt-a-go-go. I'm hoping that when I feel powerful again, I will be able to help the people on these boards as much as you all have helped me. What goes around, comes around, and all that. <p>Needing said - "You need to focus on you, not his actions. Do something wonderful for yourself. Do not bring this up to him. If he brings it up, remain calm and controlled. I know, WAY easier said than done. (What is'nt in all of this mess) Hang in there, you really are doing a great job.<p>I DO need to focus on me, you're right. That has been my biggest struggle throughout all of this. In fact, this past week has been about me taking back my power and focusing on me. Had a great discussion with my counsellor about it, and am still struggling with the concept of taking care of me. I'm having feelings of not being "good enough" and therefore, if I'm not good enough, why should I deserve to succeed and if I'm not good enough to succeed, then why bother? I have made lists of things I've always wanted to do in my life, and have marvelled at the list, KNOWING in my head that I am an intelligent and strong woman. But implementing these ideas/plans is a whole other story. I get to the plan stage, then move onto the excitement stage, but always fall short on the taking action stage. Anyone else go through this?<p>Anyway, today I'm feeling better than yesterday. No surprises I haven't heard a peep from H. I have decided Plan A is still in effect, and that I have learned another valuable lesson. Expect NOTHING from him. Why does it take so long for this stuff to sink in? <p>Sometimes I feel like I am going insane. My sanity comes from these boards and the supportive/loving people here. You are all stars. Thank you SO much. <p>And as always, would love to hear more comments from people. <p>VE

Dear Ve,<p>Been watching your posts from the side and despite the 'temporary' setback.....wouldn't blame you though, I probably would have done worse....too tempting when you see the OW on the street ....that car can turn into a weapon... LOL! Just kidding ok@!?!?!? <p>Anyways you have been lied to by a man who has taken over your H's body. So you can not expect anything at this point. Back to square one sort of thingy...... However, you are getting good advice and your way of digesting it and applying it is good. <p>KUDOS to U!!! Keep up the good work! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>L.

Venus ~ you really are doing so well. Plan B scared the beejeezus out of me too, until I learned to cut the emotional dependency stuff out and to love me. The stuff I see you writing says that you are headed in the direction you need to be. It's a rough road, butyou know what? You are gonna like yourself so much when its over. You are going to look back and be proud of yourself. <p>Here's something though to think about:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Agreed, darlin! I will not bring it up. I will not mention I saw her because I know it's the Plan A thing to do. But then won't he feel as though he got away with it? Like a kid stealing candy from a shop - no one says anything, so the kid thinks he is off Scott-Free and will do it again. Doesn't it just open the door for more and more lies?<hr></blockquote><p>You aren't his keeper. It's not your job to make sure consequences happen. He's NOT a kid. He's an adult, who is making his own choices. You are not the authority figure that he has to answer to, and your job is not to dole out the punishments when he doesn't meet YOUR standards.<p>Lots of selfish demands and disrespectful judgements in that kind of attitude.<p>Consequences WILL happen for him, just not on your plan and in your way.<p>Keeping the focus on you means that when he continues to lie and cheat, you have the right to choose to withdraw from the marriage. It means that you protect yourself and go to plan B. The consequences of his affair will be the choices that you make for yourself. And as a result, he will lose a great deal.<p>When I filed for divorce, it wasn't to punish my H or to get him to pay attention. It was because I was exhausted and didn't want someone in my life that had values and made choices the way my H was doing at the time.<p>The reality was that I couldn't take care of myself and 3 children (one a brand new infant) without help and that I had to move out of state. I wasn't doing any of these things to punish him - I was doing what I had to do to take care of me. See the difference?<p>So consequences were happening....<p>Of course, I wanted him to be hurt and punished and all kinds of horrible stuff to happen while I stood by self-righteous and gloating. I wanted to be RIGHT.<p>But then I discovered that being right and being married are mutually exclusive.<p>My H used to always promise no more lies. He was lying when he said that.<p>I had to learn to accept it, and not to expect anything different until he starting doing different. <p>The way I survived my plan A was to accept that EVERYTHING that my H said was a lie. If he said he stopped for gas on the way to our home, or if he said he was late because of traffice, I didn't argue, I didn't question him to try to find a hole in the story...I just accepted that he was lying...and let it be.<p>Acceptance of that fact, that my H was a liar, was a relief. I didn't WANT him to be a liar, and that kept me getting hurt over and over. He'd promise, I'd want it to be true, and he'd break it again, and I'd be hurt.<p>*I* was the one suffering...not him. <p>Acceptance is the hardest thing to do, but the ONLY way you can survive this. Acceptance does not mean that you approve of or condone unacceptable behavior. It simply means that you accept the reality of the situation and that you can't control it or change it. You can still hate it, and you can even make decisions to protect yourself from it...but acknowledging the reality is the most important thing you can do to minimize the hurt.<p>((hugs)) You really are doing great. Hang in there, work on some self-sufficiency, you'll be OK.

VE,
Hey, thanks for your reply on my tie/chair thread. Sorry if it sparked your current feelings.<p>Steve said something to me Friday that might help you understand and deal with some of the feelings you have right now.<p>He asked me if I knew what feelings I was having during Plan A. He asked if I felt it was unfair that I should have to be the only one who gives a crap, the only one who can't just say whatever I want. He asked if I feel like a doormat, giving in to WS every whim. He asked if I feel like an enabler, allowing WS to just go galavanting around with OP.<p>When I answered emphatically YES! to all three, he said, "GOOD, that means you're performing a very good Plan A."<p>These feelings are to be expected. And as a result, they drain your love bank, making any transition to Plan B or DV possibly easier.<p>Make sense?
Kev

BR said - "You aren't his keeper. It's not your job to make sure consequences happen. He's NOT a kid. He's an adult, who is making his own choices. You are not the authority figure that he has to answer to, and your job is not to dole out the punishments when he doesn't meet YOUR standards."<p>Your are so WISE! Where were you about 4 years ago when I started this relationship? Honestly, everytime I think I have it all figured out, you come in with this different way of looking at things, and my eyes are opened. Thank you from the bottom of my heart, BR. I mean that. <p>You're right. Despite behaving like one, he's not a kid. He's an adult and it's damn time he began thinking like one. Funny, really. Everyone keeps telling him to grow up. <p>BR said - "The way I survived my plan A was to accept that EVERYTHING that my H said was a lie. If he said he stopped for gas on the way to our home, or if he said he was late because of traffice, I didn't argue, I didn't question him to try to find a hole in the story...I just accepted that he was lying...and let it be."<p>Nice one. I think I'm going to try that approach in thinking. God knows, I've tried everything else!<p>Kev- didn't mention it in your thread, but I'm very proud of you for not going over THERE. Well done to you! You did it. And thank you for quoting Steve for me. I admit to being scared as I read it. I was thinking, "oh no. I'm feeling all these things and in the next sentence he's going to say I've been doing it all wrong!". But then I found out I'm NOT! I rule. Thanks for that, mate. Helped a lot!<p>Quick update...She has just left his house. How do I know this? Because whenever she leaves, he sends me a text message. Just got one telling me about a "fantastic Christmas present" he bought me this weekend that he swears I'm going to LOVE!<p>My first reaction? What a shmuck!!!!! Probably feeling this way because I just got off the phone with my Mother who laughed at all his recent antics. Made me giggle, too, actually. So I'm kind of in a "he's a pathetic little soul" mood right now. This too shall pass. <p>Thanks again everyone!
VE

Okay, not doing too well today. Did really well last night and didn't answer his text message. Haven't contacted him at all this morning. But just got an email from him saying that he is coming over tomorrow night to sort out some paperwork. Then he went on about how his Christmas party was and asking how my weekend was. <p>I know what I'm supposed to do. NOT bring up that I saw OW this weekend. But I'm seriously fighting with that right now. I haven't answered him yet and am SO torn as to what to say/not say. Help me, please. Plan A. Plan A. Plan A. <p>Spoke to friends and family last night. All of them think I'm being too available to him. They all suggest I should not be there everytime he contacts me. Does anyone else find it hard to try to explain to your friends/family what you're doing and how you're handling the situation and why? I try to explain the concepts of Plan A and they all think I'm insane. And then I start to think that their advice makes sense. But then I'm in love with my H and don't want to NOT contact him. My life feels like one big contradiction. <p>So how do I handle this? Do I reply to his email? Do I let him "sweat" for a while? Or do I just do what feels right to me?

ve,
I'm just going to jump in here as you're probably waiting for some help and we're all just getting up over here.
I'll make it easy for you. Just copy this:<p>"I had a fantastic weekend, thanks for asking. Went out with (friend who rescued you when you were feeling like crap) and had a nice time. I'm proud of you for going to your Christmas party and I'm glad it went well. Tomorrow sounds fine. Thanks for the email, ve."<p>Short, cordial, no hint of an LB, no asking about his weekend because you don't care.<p>Hope this helps.
sj<p>[ December 10, 2001: Message edited by: sweetjane ]</p>

Hi venus,<p>SJ's response sounds good to me. I know how you must feel, I would want to ask. But you know it would not lead anywhere good and you already know the truth.<p>My FWH is away on a business trip and the OW is there too. He has called me at least once every day, sometimes twice, and I have desperatly wanted to ask if he has had contact w/OW, but I have'nt. Conversations are kept light. I have asked about the other people there that I know and just let it go. If they are together he is probably going to lie to me anyway and there is nothing I can do about it one way or another.<p>The family/friends thing is hard, most people really don't understand the principles we are trying to practice here, they don't see how it can be good for us, view us as being doormats. You know better. You know that you are being a strong supportive person. One day, whether you are together or not, your H will look back on this time and wonder what he ever did to deserve such a loyal strong W. Hopefully it wont be to late. <p>Keep up the awesome Plan A. Bite your tongue and be as pleasant and non-chalant (sp?) as possible.<p>Take Care,
Needing

Thanks you guys. But I think I blew it. Felt like a volcano ready to errupt. <p>He called as I was walking to get a Christmas tree. I kept it light, kept saying to myself "Plan A. Plan A". Asked him how his weekend was. He said Saturday was a write-off as he was hung over. He said Sunday he went shopping. Then started going on about how he finally took the bus (remember, his car is being fixed after the crash) and just went on about how easy it is, etc... So as I was sitting there listening to him lie, I just couldn't stand it anymore. I said, very calmly, "Why didn't OW drive you?" <p>D'oh!<p>Silence. Dead, flat silence. Then he started stuttering and managed a "what?". I repeated the question. More silence. More stuttering. "what do you mean?" he finally managed. "Well, she was here this weekend, wasn't she?" More silence. Longer this time. I could almost hear him trying to think of a way out of this. I was getting angry, but I stayed calm. So I finally said, "I saw her on Saturday". <p>He immediately wanted to know when and where. Started asking all sorts of panicky questions. I answered them calmly. I then told him how it made me feel. I asked if he could explain to me why he lied. He said just what I figured he would; that he didn't want me to be upset. <p>Then I said something I shouldn't have. I was still calm. I wasn't shouting. I said, "I'm having a hard time coming to terms with the fact you lied to me again. It's hard to realise that the person I have loved and trusted for 4 years is a liar". <p>Please be gentle with me. I know I screwed up there. He just said, "I didn't want you to feel like you couldn't leave the house. I didn't want you to be upset". I just listened to him. And then, since I knew I had screwed up, I just wanted the conversation to stop. I didn't say anything for a while then he said, "hello??!!!" in a really angry tone. I said I was still there and said, "why do you sound angry?" He then blurted out, "because I feel like you're trying to control me still!".<p>Still calm. "Okay. Maybe you can explain to me how I'm still controlling you?" "With all your questions!" He said. I immediately recognised that he was angry with himself for getting caught in a lie, so I wasn't letting this get to me. I know, for a fact, that I've not been doing anything controlling.I barely contact him at all, and when we do see each other and talk, it's all very light and just normal conversation. How was his weekend, did he do anything fun, how are our mutual friends, etc... Just like any normal conversation I would have with my friends/family. <p>I said this to him. Said that I took on board what he said a few months ago about feeling controlled by me and that I'm dealing with that in counselling. Said that I've done my best to leave him alone, to not judge, to respect the space he has asked for. And I HAVE! I don't demand anything from him, I've not asked him for anything and I don't check up on him to see where he is or what he's doing! Unbelieveable that he said this to me. Again, I asked, very calmly, if he could give me an example of me trying to control him over these past few months. <p>Nothing. Nada. Zilch. He couldn't say one single thing. Couldn't come up with one tiny iota of an example. Then he said, "Maybe it's just that I'm used to you being that way." Said it very quietly. BINGO!!!! So I said, "you sound angry. I really don't feel like I've done anything wrong, here, so I don't understand why you are angry with me. Or maybe you're angry with yourself for getting caught in a lie. I don't know. But if and when you can help me understand how you feel I'm still controlling you, I would really appreciate it and I'm willing to listen and hear." He sounded calmer now and just said, "okay". We said goodbye, and he was using his "sweet voice" as he said goodbye to me. Not sure what that means. <p>So here's my take on all this. Let me know what you all think -<p>He's pissed off with himself. He lied, he got caught, he knows how much it hurt me that I saw her and he can't deal with it. He's infamous for not taking responsibility for anything in all this. He never admits when he's wrong. <p>I think he just doesn't want to see the changes in me at all, because it would mean that he would have to face up to what he's done. It would mean taking responsibility for causing me so much pain. It's the same reason he won't talk to his family or his friends. He can't deal with any of it. What the hell do you do with someone like this? I know there is nothing I can do except be the best me I can and hope he pulls himself out of his pit, but when he gets angry at me for things he's done, it makes it SO hard. <p>Guess I'm learning more lessons today. I should have listened to you all. Shouldn't have said a word. <p>feeling regret -
venusenvy