Nothing really new to report. Just some questions since you seem to have read so much about WS's and what goes on inside them. Trying to figure out what's going on inside my W. She's shown no signs of guilt, doubt or anger since she filed. She's been very friendly and seems content or relieved, as if the hard part is over. Nothing has changed, except some paperwork has been filed. The hard part is still to come. Is it possible she feels no guilt? Does she realize how much her life is about to change? Does she realize the upheaval our daughter's in for? Is it possible that she thinks she dug herself such a deep hole that this is the only way out? I guess I can't worry about that.<p>I spoke to Steve Harley on Thursday. I told him I wouldn't respond to D until after xmas (re: counterfiling) and that I won't bring up selling the house until I see what her reaction is. I'm not expecting a certain reaction, just curious what it will be. I spoke to Steve about plan B. I was concerned that counterfiling won't leave my W with the best impression of me should I go to plan B. He cautioned me. He said do not plan B if my motive is to get a reaction out of my W or to try to manipulate her. He said plan B should only be done when I just can't take it anymore and am ready to except any outcome of my marriage. I already knew this. I can't honestly say I'm at that point, but I do need to be away from her.

sad dad<p>[ December 10, 2001: Message edited by: sad dad ]<p>[ December 10, 2001: Message edited by: sad dad ]</p>

Hi SD- glad you updated me. I believe you ARE doing the right things.Unless your W is truly a narcissistic personality type which I doubt, she is in complete psychological denial about what she is doing. She probably feels that since she's gone down the wrong road so far already she may as well keep going as your marriage would be impossible to fix.( in her mind) This is what my H thought he tells me now. OW really encouraged this line of thinking with him-she told him that I might forgive him and take him back for a few months just to get rid of her but then I'd revert to all my LB ways and treat him badly and he'd want out again. You can bet your W is believing whatever OM is telling her about the future of your marriage. Its not tell reality creates actual bad things for them that they think things thru for themselves as opposed to believing their OP's views. My H would have been perfectly content to live on our couch for the whole YEAR it took for us to divorce but I was prepared to take legal action to avoid that. He was totally oblivious to my emotional pain - he is only NOW starting to acknowledge and realize the extent of that. lifeismessy

lim,<p>I think my W is oblivious to the pain this is causing me and will cause our daughter. I've done a good job of hiding my pain from her, didn't want to play on her guilt. <p>Steve told me to try to reinforce that I'm not giving up on our marriage, and that although I haven't gotten angry or upset, make sure she doesn't mistake that for not caring. His thinking is that if she thinks I've given up, it will make it easier for her to justify her decision. I've got to keep planting the seed that there is hope and that we can overcome this (even though it seems hopeless to me right now).<p>sad dad

lim,<p>I know the way I plan on handling this is the only choice I have right now. Nothing is likely to change if I don't, it just feels so hopeless. Did you feel that way at this point, like your H was past the point of no return? I don't know how much OM is still in the picture, but I've got to assume very much so. I haven't brought his name up in months, knowing the point would be moot. One thing I do know is that her cellphone bill last month was over $80, it's usually around $35, so there must be a reason for that. <p>She hasn't talked about D except for asking for my lawyer's address last Wednesday. I left a message with my lawyer to let her know my W's lawyer would be contacting her. I haven't heard back from my lawyer. My W hasn't talked about selling the house or our future living arrangements. Maybe she's waiting until after Xmas. Who knows? 2002 will get off to a fun start!<p>sad dad

HI SD- yes I DO understand the hopeless feeling you have- having to force the envelope not knowing if it will lead to your marriage being restored or a very messy divorce. One book that I found helped me during this time was called Hope for the Separated- it would encourage me when I got really discouraged. Your W's not mentioning the obvious results of her filing on you- ie. selling the house, custody disputes etc. shows her emotional detachment from you and her psychological denial of what she is doing- even to herself. I used to ask myself- how can H be so cold to me??? The reason was he had completely transferred his emotional allegiance to OW and so he didnt 'experience' the pain I felt when he would say our marriage was hopeless and I would cry for hours. I finally had to put a serious limit on our 'marriage talks' to avoid being completely emotionally devastated week after week. It was actually about 2 months AFTER he completely ended all contact with OW that he began to get his emotional empathy back for me. See why this type of affair leads to divorce more often than the other kinds?Its sad but true. I can assure you that at some point your W is going to have to deal with the emotional reality of what she has done and is doing.I also think that she and OM disrespect you and your marriage's value- this is something that would have to change if you and your W were to make a successful reconciliation. You have a power imbalance in your marriage.My H admitted to me in therapy that he had lost respect for me during the past few years and OW really fostered that along.OM is probably telling your W how she should not respect you for putting up with her continued contact with him! OM doesnt give two whits about your commitment to marriage and your commitment to raising your daughter in a 2 parent home.He only thinks about HIMSELF! Hang in there- I know its really hard to take such a strong stand but try your best to stand firm and also limit the emotional pain that your W is inflicting right now by getting your needs met by other people and interests- try not to obsess about the future and just take things one day at a time- and even one hour at a time if necessary. Take care- lifeismessy

lim,<p>"See why this type of affair leads to divorce more often than the other kinds?"<p>I couldn't agree more. I believe EA's are much more devastating to a marriage than PA's. I say this because with PA's there is more guilt because the betrayal cannot be denied. EA's are easier to justify in WS's mind.

"I can assure you that at some point your W is going to have to deal with the emotional reality of what she has done and is doing."<p>I hope you're right.<p>"OM is probably telling your W how she should not respect you for putting up with her continued contact with him!"<p>Your probably right. I'm sure she's lost respect for me because I put up with this. Hopefully counterfiling will help me regain some self respect and send a clear message that if our marriage must end, it will be on my terms with all the cards on the table.<p>My W hasn't been mean or angry towards me. I would best describe it as distant or indifferent.
Completely emotionally detached. It's as though she seems relieved that she's finally done this, but she doesn't realize this is just the first step, nothing has really changed and reality hasn't reared it's ugly head.<p>Except for a brief conversation with my BIL before Thanksgiving, I haven't talked to anyone in her family about this in 4 or 5 months. After I counterfile, I'm going to talk to him about it. I won't explain my reasoning, just let him know what I'm doing. He and I are very close. We were friends before we were BIL's. Her family is in denial about this too. They suspect something, but don't want to believe it's true. I doubt my W will tell them that I counterfiled because they'll know I wouldn't do that without good reason and the approval of my lawyer. Maybe my BIL can stir the pot a little so her family begins to see what's really been going on. I doubt she can handle the backlash.<p>sad dad<p>[ December 11, 2001: Message edited by: sad dad ]</p>

Dear Sad Dad,<p>Scuse me while I jump on your thread. I agree with you.<p>Awhile ago I posted on the board about a book review for "Emotional Infidelity" by Gary Neuman (Crown Publishers 2001) which I saw in the L.A. Times, Monday, Nov. 5, 2001, Living section. <p>An EA is what my H has indulged in these last 5 years. We are emotionally divorced, physically under the same roof but I sleep in the spare room. <p>I left the newspaper on his dresser, folded open to the article, with a yellow post-it note on it, saying "WS, this is what I was talking about. Love, BS"<p>He returned it the next day by placing it on my bureau, without comment. I feel peace, because though I always knew he was unfaithful because of the "heavy emoting" he was indulging in with OW, because of the fog and because H is so educated and I'm not, he could argue his way into cloaking his EA in "innocence". The EA phenomenom is fact. He would be less guilty of cheating (in my eyes) had he paid a pro to have sex with him and forgotten her name. <p>The contact continues between OW and my H, via e-mail and his cell phone. I have built up a separate social life of a type that doesn't tempt me to have an affair. (Church and Synagogue contacts with women only and hobbies, and friendships with mothers of our son's friends.) <p>I have joy from interactions with children, doing things with them. Since we have only one child, I enjoy the visits from his friends, having 4 or more kids at the table, cooking meals for them, playing games together, going places. I'm not going to squander the precious years of his childhood moping anymore because WS is a narcissistic fool. <p>I will stay in our "marriage" until our son is in college, but there is nothing left of intimacy, trust, or love.

belle,<p>I remember your post. There is a website that has an article on EA's (I believe it's www.realtionship-institute.com). I couldn't have written a better description of the evolution of my W's EA myself (I don't know if it ever went PA). I think that EA's are so damaging because the hunger for the physical part is always there, and until it is satisfied, the WS can always deny the A and may not feel any guilt. It's the betrayal of being physically intimate with someone else that leads to guilt. <p>I see no signs that my W feels any guilt, even regarding what D will do to our daughter. But as lifeismessy said, at some point she will have to deal with the reality of our marriage being over and the part she played in it. I'm hoping she will see that reality before it's too late.<p>sad dad

Sad Dad,<p>You know my story. My WW is having a EA, has been for the past 8 months. She stayed out till 3:00 AM one night with group from work, OM was there (d-day - April 6th) and everything changed. She became a different person after that night. I found out two months later who she was with that night, and how many calls she made to him, 116 calls from our house in a two month span. That's not including cell phone calls. I checked records before April 6th and not one call was made to him. After I found out, She confessed that "he is someone to talk too", and then told me that she indeed has feelings for him. W then tells me that she has been unhappy throughout our 9 year marriage. W said that she does not know what she is going to do about us. Said that it has nothing to do about OM. W must have been so unhappy that we were talking about having another child and buying a new house a month before d-day. I know we had problems, but not ones where you go and cheat on your spouse.<p>She works with OM and continues to "talk" to him. Unfortunally, when you talk to someone 116 times during this period, you give your heart to them. Yes, a EA is very bad. So much so, that I have filed for D. It's sad. It's something that I did not want, but things are getting worse.<p>Dino

Dino,<p>Isn't it funny how these men our "just friends", but they need to call them 5-6 times a day. Or how they never said anything about being unhappy before OM was in their life. Our situations are so similar. <p>I wish it didn't have to come to this for either of us. I know you held out as long as you could, but there's only so much a person can take. You did what you needed to do and I respect you for that. I wish I had had the stones to file, but I chose to handle it differently. Hopefully things will turn around for you.<p>In the end, both our W's will find out what they had, it just may be too late by then. The worst thing is, our kids will suffer the most. Take care.<p>sad dad<p>Anytime you want to have that drink, let me know.

Sad Dad,<p>Your right about what they had before and now lost. Her own father told me that I'm too good to her. In the end, it IS our children that will be the most affected by this. I think now, how will their lives will turn out knowing that D will take place. My W is in la la land. She just thinks about herself and no one else. I really think that she thinks nothing major will change in her life. <p>Believe me when I say that I tried everything to make this work, but with 8 months of being crapped on, I HAVE HAD ENOUGH. I hurt too much to sit on my hands and watch what she has done to the kids and myself. <p>Sorry if I keep on blabbing on. It's really sad it came to this point.<p>P.S. I'll give you a call and maybe we can have that drink next week.<p>Dino

lim,<p>I got a call from my lawyer today. The paperwork is ready for me to sign and respond. I told her paralegal I'd be in there next week to look it over and sign. For my daughter's sake, I want to wait until after Xmas to respond. I'm really curious (and a little scared) to see how she responds. I wouldn't be surprised if she doesn't say a word.<p>sad dad

SD- have you told your W that you plan to contest the D? What is her reaction to you telling her that if you have? My H would argue how dissolution( mutual divorce) would save us $, I told him that divorce is wrong so the $ part of it is inconsequential to me.I did assure him that I wasnt going to contest it merely to make him mad, but rather its my strong moral and spiritual convictions that I have to live with myself with and thats why I would be contesting. THAT made him think a bit. He would say, "Why would you want to stay in a loveless marriage-what example is that for the kids?" ( I think this was echoes of what OW had said to him)I'd tell him- its only loveless from your side of it. Oh I tell you SD- sometimes it was like trying to reason with a stubborn distracted toddler if you get my drift! Yet H tells me now how glad he is that I didnt divorce him! lifeismessy

lim,<p>No, I haven't told her that I'm contesting it. Our situations are different in that I'm contesting her grounds, but counterfiling under my own. This is what I need to do since she's never admitted the EA, unlike your husband. I'm trying to follow Dobson's advice of "opening the cage door...", if she wants out, I'm not going to stop her, I just want all the cards on the table. I asked Steve Harley if I should tell her about counterfiling, and he said no. It will come off as being controlling or a threat (and IMO, maybe lose the shock value). He said this way it will just be a reaction to her action. I've got to convey to her that I'm not doing this to hurt her or make her angry. I'm doing this to get the truth for my own peace of mind, but make it clear that it's not what I want and that I still believe in our marriage. Kinda opening the cage door for her to leave (albeit under my terms), but not closing it behind her. She's got to know that it's not too late to turn back.<p>W was home very early from junior achievement (w/OM) yesterday. I told her our daughter was running a slight fever. She said maybe she'd stay home today, she didn't want to go to work anyway. I asked why, and she said she hates that place. First time she's ever said anything like that. Trouble in paradise??? I know, I can't allow myself to read anything into it.<p>On another note, I got a xmas card from my in-laws. They sent seperate cards to my W and I, which I appreciated because it meant they were thinking of me, and not just sending cards off of some list. I'm going to send them one back with a little note. They're great people and have always treated me well. <p>sad dad

SD- trouble in paradise with OM? Its bound to happen at some point which is why delaying, patience and stalling all work in YOUR favor in this situation. I know that OW got on my H's nerves eventually by insisting on more and more commitment from him and his taking more and more legal action against me. Because I wasn't arguing/fighting/ LBing with him it made it harder and harder for him to keep treating me so badly and justify in his mind that what OW was telling him was the right things to do. Steve Harley's advice is very sound- by all means dont talk about divorce and grounds and all that with your W for as long as possible- if she does bring it up tell her calmly and firmly that you believe divorce is wrong, you dont agree with it and thats why you are taking the actions that you are. Then DISENGAGE from further discussion with her. Tough to do- but highly effective believe me. And it will help preserve what shreds of feelings you have left for her. You ARE doing the right things- I know its so hard to do- it seems like you are doing the HARD work here- but like my mom told me, " Someone has to be the grown-up here and WS is certainly NOT doing it." lifeismessy

lim,<p>"trouble in paradise with OM?"<p>Who knows? I may be jumping to a conclusion. Since she started JA in October, she's gotten home at 11:30, 11:00 (both before she learned of P.I.). Since P.I., 8:30, 8:30, 9:30 & 7:45 (last night). Interesting???<p>"Steve Harley's advice is very sound- by all means dont talk about divorce and grounds and all that with your W for as long as possible- if she does bring it up tell her calmly and firmly that you believe divorce is wrong, you dont agree with it and thats why you are taking the actions that you are."<p>It's reassuring to know that you & Steve are on the same page and giving the same advice.<p>"Then DISENGAGE from further discussion with her. Tough to do- but highly effective believe me."<p>I assume this is to prevent her from having the chance to say things that will hurt me or to suck me into some kind of confrontation.<p>I really appreciate your help. I'm sure it must be tough on you sometimes because it probably brings back some painful memories. I really admire the BS's/WS's in recovery who still post here and offer advice. It shows their depth of character and compassion for others. THANKS!!!<p>sad dad<p>[ December 13, 2001: Message edited by: sad dad ]</p>

bump

SD-thanks for the thanks! I know when I was in my darkest hrs 6 mo ago I leaned heavily on the support I got from these boards. Only someone who has BEEN there can know how hard it is to go thru this. I go to a good counselor regularly but even he cant understand how emotionally devastating and life-changing this whole process is. I wish there was some easier way to make WS see the gravity of what they are doing- unfortunately I dont know of any other ways other than what worked for me. I have gained enormous emotional strength this last year and found out what I 'm made of- that's for darn sure! Some people say that once infidelity gets hold in a marriage- that marriage is OVER - in some ways I agree with this in that a new type of relationship has to evolve in order for recovery to be effective. Thats why you need to change the power dynamics in your marriage if you hope to have a meaningful new future together. In my case- I always gave in to H and took a passive back-seat role to him and this actually made him angry and resentful of me. When I finally took a strong stand with him without being hateful it made him really see what I was made of - and he LIKES it!Hang in there- lifeismessy

lim,<p>"Only someone who has BEEN there can know how hard it is to go thru this."<p>That's why I come here and turn to people like you for advice, you've been through it and have been successful. My friends and family have been very supportive, but can't really understand what it's like. Most of them think I'm nuts for not giving up.<p>"I have gained enormous emotional strength this last year and found out what I 'm made of..."<p>I feel the same way. If someone told me a year ago I'd be going through this and still fighting to save my marriage, I would have said no way.<p>"When I finally took a strong stand with him without being hateful it made him really see what I was made of...<p>Exactly why I've got to do what I'm going to do.
Basically, I'll be telling my W, "if you want out of this marriage, it will not be on your terms. We will have to face the truth and BOTH be accountable for our actions and choices". Of course I won't say that, but she'll get the point. I can accept my marriage being over, I cannot accept her never having to face the truth. After 7-1/2 years together, I deserve that much!!!<p>sad dad

lim,<p>Hope you had a good weekend. <p>The more I think about some of what you've said about respect, the more I agree. I don't think my W respects me at all for putting up with her continued contact with OM. There's really nothing I could do about it. I couldn't stop her from what she was doing. I didn't want to file for D, she wouldn't leave and I couldn't leave due to custody ramifications, so my hands were tied. I just sat back and hoped she would do the right thing. I really don't know that I had any other choice. <p>My hands are no longer tied and doing what I plan to do will help me regain my self respect, possibly gain some respect from her and will at least adjust the power imbalance that is so much in her favor right now. <p>She may laugh that I will file under grounds of adultery since I have no proof of PA, although after a year I have to believe something has happened (you don't tell someone you are in love with them if nothing physical has happened). Anyways, I'm really curious how she'll respond. My guess is she won't say a word about it.<p>Also, I'm really puzzled that she still isn't talking about the D, selling the house, living arrangements, custody issues, etc. Maybe she's waiting until after the holidays, but then why file before them? Is she avoiding dealing with the real issues to come?<p>sad dad