This is in response to those of you who read Mrs. WLD's post and wanted some input from me. HERE I AM!<p>I just realized I've probably been avoiding this. I'm feeling some scary things thinking about all of the history. I'm going to try to go into some detail (in parts, not all tonight), but please always remember that the predominant feeling here is love.<p>In fact, that's been the key to my sanity. Jesus said to love others as He loves us. I don't know how to do that with all of the people I've met in this world, but I promised in a vow to my wife that I would…and I did…and I do…and I will…forever. This much I know. Gotta have Him though. CAN'T do it without Him. No, I'm not a big preaching type. Maybe I should be. I'm uncomfortable with those that are, but I respect them. Maybe it's a courage thing. I just know that He, and His way of loving was absolutely the key. Even if you don't believe He's God, respect Him as a brilliant wonderful man, and love the way He does/did. It's really, really important.<p>I guess this first part is some hindsight on when all was hell. Don't know if it will help any of y'all, but it's bound to help me, so here goes.<p>When I was in the middle of working my little a** off to save my marriage, I, like so many of you, had a friend or two asking me "WHY!!!???!!!" "What the hell are you doing all of this work for? For a woman who's cheating on you!?!? What the hell are you thinking!?!?! Kick her out! Send her on her way!!!! Don't let the door hit her in the a** on the way out." But that's not what I wanted. And that's not what I promised to do on our wedding day. I take that day very seriously. In defending my self and my actions to this friend, I found myself defining marriage in a very meaningful way (at least for me). Now pay attention, this is good stuff! I told him that when we said we wanted to get married, we said basically two things.<p>1. I want to spend the rest of my life with you, and
2. I want to bring children into the world with you.<p>Wow. Them's big words! Now we are/were intelligent people! We both knew that people change, people grow, we learn things about each other and ourselves that we never knew. The commitment we made on our wedding day was this: "Someday this is bound to get really, really hard. Someday I'm going to hurt you, or you me. Someday I may even find myself hating you. But on this day I promise you this. That no matter how hard this gets, no matter how bad, how sad, I promise that I'll pick myself up off the floor and try again. I may fail. I'll try again! And again. THIS IS FOREVER. That's what we deserve, that's what the kids we're going to have deserve. So my love for you will go on FOREVER.<p>And so it does. If we're not willing to make that level of commitment (and this is big!!!), then why get married. That whole boyfriend/girlfriend thing works just fine if your just gonna cr*p out when it gets hard. <p>I did hate her for I while. How could she do this to me? Was she blind? There's gotta be a better way to live than with this cr*p! Maybe so, but that' not what I promised. So I loved her. Unconditionally. My love wasn't based on what she was doing or what she did for me (ya right). It couldn't be. She gave me no reason to love her. I loved her because I said I would and because Jesus asked me to. I came here (to MB). I read…a lot. Harley's stuff, Dr. Phil's book. I learned a lot. But it wasn't enough…she filed for divorce. <p>I was crushed. Oh my God. I'd lost my family.<p>But alas! She came back. About a month later she said she didn't want a divorce. I was thrilled. But I was more scared. VERY CAUTIOUS. I didn't trust her and I told her that. We went to work and it was great…for about two weeks. She kept calling the OM. I asked her and she told me. I told her not to. She said she'd try, and then called him again. We went to our first marriage counseling appt. together about a month later and she told me she couldn't stop calling him. I said, "Then we need to go ahead with this divorce." Those were the most difficult words I've ever said in my whole life. But it was true for me at the time. All that I'd learned, all that I'd committed to. All I believed. It all came crashing down. There was no commitment, so there was no marriage. What was I fighting for? I thought it was something that just didn't exist anymore. And so we moved forward with the divorce. Until an amazing weekend about two months later. <p>Hate to stop there, but it's late. I'll do my best to get back on tomorrow and finish. Jdmac1 had asked for some perspective about the how it felt heading into recovery. I'll get there soon. For now, let me just say that it feels wonderful. Strong. Not as scary as I thought it would be. But Louise get's a ton of the credit for that. The fog has lifted. She can see so clearly now. Thank you God! <p>Goodnight and God bless. Be back soon.

OK, I'm already crying here...can't wait to read more.

Bump, Just making sure you get noticed, Honey! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] 988!

Thank You WLD,<p> WOW! I too will be looking forward to the rest of the story. <p> Thanks to Mrs WLD for bumping this up. I would have hated to have missed it. <p> jd

Sorry I didn't get back out here last night. We had marriage counseling. It was great! I'll try to post more tonight.<p>jdmac1 - You're welcome!<p>Weez - Thanks. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Have a great day.

Bump

Sorry, sorry, sorry it took so long.<p>OK, where was I? Oh yes! <p>Everything changed just 2 months ago. Well, it actually started changing a several weeks before that. About a month or so after that horrible counseling session where she said she couldn't stop calling the OM and we started moving forward with divorce, she started waffling again. "I think we can still make this work," and such. But I couldn't. She was still calling this guy! No, my mind and my heart knew that "making this work" was far, far from reality. Her words were there, but more than words were needed, and even then I wasn't very optimistic. We were actually getting along very well. She'd ask me if my kindness/attitude etc. in any way meant that I was considering working things out with her, because she wanted to plan for the future (should she get a house or apartment, should she get this guy out of her life etc.). I told her that her plans should probably be made without regard for "us." As for the guy, I told her that it was my opinion that she needed to get him out of her life and Jesus back in, no matter what the future held for us.<p>She said she couldn't imagine God wanting her after all she's done in her life. (heavy sigh). Then God got into my head (I say this because these next few word couldn't have come from me, but I said them, so…). I said, "Weez, do you remember the story in the bible about the woman who screwed up her life over and over again. She kept getting chance after chance to fix things and blew it anyway. She had every chance in the book to make things right and just kept screwing up. But then she went to Jesus and asked Him to accept her, but He said, 'No, you've had all the chances you're going to get.' Do you remember that story?" She said, "No." I said, "That's because IT'S NOT THERE!!!!!!!!" I think she understood.<p>For the next several weeks, I couldn't help but notice the very positive things she was doing. She changed her pager and cell numbers so the OM couldn't call her. She got rid of everything he ever gave her. She told me she understood how and why I felt the way I did, but she wanted me to know that she wanted to make this work. My head didn't budge. My heart quivered quite a bit, but my head still said that we had to finish this divorce crap. In fact, on the first Saturday of October she wanted to talk to me about a friend's wedding that we had agreed to attend together that night. She was scared that I was going to ignore her all night, and that our friends that would also be there might do the same. She also reiterated that she wanted to try again. I told her that day that there was "nothing I want more on the face of the earth than the two of us and those two beautiful little girls of ours, happy and healthy and together forever. But that's not the reality of the situation. Maybe someday, after we're divorced. After we get our collective sh*t together. Maybe then, if we're both still interested we could see what happens, but not now.<p>Well, that night we went to that wedding. We sat at a table with several people who had been some of our best friends throughout our marriage. We had a great time. We danced together that night for the first time in a long time. It felt so good to hold her. But my head was still steadfast.<p>The next day, we both took our girls to church and to the church carnival that was going on that weekend. It was phenomenal to spend such a fun day with her and the girls. The girls were in heaven. You could see it in their faces. They were so happy to be out somewhere with Mommy and Daddy. That did it. Although, thinking back, that still wasn't enough to get me to let my guard down. Don't get me wrong, it was a lot, but not enough. I tried for a few weeks to figure it out. Then I realized that Jesus has worked His fanny off for me several times in my life, He must be back at it now. I stopped trying to figure it out.<p>The next night we had a long talk. We decided we could and would put our marriage back together. We held hands!!! We hugged!!!!!! We kissed!!!!!!!! She looked into my eyes like she used to…with love and caring and kindness and love!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm still thanking God. I hope many of you get to feel this. I really do. It feels better that falling in love with her the first time. And that was awesome.<p>We're doing really well. It's tough this time of year to get the time we need, but we're still finding time to do the work we need to do and have the fun we need to have. We're in marriage counseling. We finding time to get out here. We've got the EN questionnaire, the LB questionnaire and the Personal History questionnaire printed up. We haven't filled 'em out yet, but step by step we're getting there. In the mean time, we're loving each other a lot.<p>So, that's it. What else do you want to know? What can I/we do to help? Fill us in. Ask some stuff. Give us advice if you've got it to give.<p>God bless. Merry Christmas. Happy holidays.
Bill<p>[ December 18, 2001: Message edited by: wld ]<p>[ December 18, 2001: Message edited by: wld ]</p>

I want another Christmas miracle (see Cali's post about the Season of Miracles)...<p>I've cried all day and my face hurts...<p>I talked to WH and didn't LB...well the conversation itself was probably an LB...but there was no yelling or screaming...just quiet conversation...<p>I guess I just want too much...<p>Your story is beautiful and inspiring and scary (how far down to the bottom we have to go)...thank you for sharing...<p>And like the old Quarterflash tune goes...I have to harden my heart...I have to swallow my tears...

Great Beginning WLD,<p> Yes, I can only pray that my Wife and I get to have that new beginning. Your stories are truly inspirational. Thanks for posting it.<p> jd

TryingAgain,<p>The interesting thing for me was, I accepted what I had been "given." Meaning, her decision to divorce. It was devastating. But at that point, I felt EXTREME rejection. I'd been trying for months to make a difference, a positive difference, and I was unwavering in my attempts. But then she filed. I cried, I freaked, I cried some more. And then I took a look at what I had left. An uncertain future, but one that had a lot of positives. It wasn't the road I wanted, but it was a road. It seemed better than the stagnant crap I'd been sitting for so many months. So I accepted it and focused on the positive. Then and only then did I get out of my depression and feel like I had some control in my own life.<p>I know that attitude is contrary to what you learn here. I just wasn't strong enough to fight for my marriage after it was over. And in my view, it was over the day she filed. The only thing left was legal crap. The marriage vow she made was sitting in the dirt, it was worthless.<p>Deep down inside I was still hoping that someday we could get back together. But that was the angle. It wasn't "save my marriage" anymore, it was "start over someday."

Bump

Mr/Mrs Wld-<p>You two don't know how much what you've written means to me. You've given me hope to carry on in the last several weeks. Thank you.<p>My wife came out to the forum and lurked around some in the last couple of weeks, and I believe she read the Mrs' story. Though I haven't received any response on it, I can't help but think it's given her a ray of sunlight, the knowledge that it CAN work.<p>We've had some terrific interactions over those couple of weeks, and I feel better about myself, about life, and about my love for my wife than I have in YEARS. I'm not saying my work is done, but I actually look forward to the hard work that will hopefully result in our reconciliation.<p>Wld, thanks for showing us that it's REALLY never too late. That's something that both my wife and I have been struggling with.... "It's just too much", "too much has happened", "I can't forgive it all", etc... But I now am able to believe it CAN happen. I can't speak for my wife, but hopefully, she can see that too.<p>No matter what comes of our marriage, ANY relationships that we DO have are going to take a TREMENDOUS amount of work, and I for one am ready to put in that work.<p>Thank you so much for sharing your story with us all.<p>God bless,
Kevin

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>That's something that both my wife and I have been struggling with.... "It's just too much", "too much has happened", "I can't forgive it all", etc...<hr></blockquote><p>I'm on the "I can't forgive..." part. Like I said up on the first post of this thread, YOU PROMISED YOU WOULD! I know what you meant by that and I don't mean to sound so...so...well, I don' know...forceful. But what is "marriage" if it's not loving her no matter what, loving him no matter what. No, I'm not talking about love. I'm not talking about the awesome visceral love-at-first-sight love. I'm talking about a decision. That's it, that's all. A decision to be true to yourself, true to your spouse, true to your marriage vows. Sure it's hard! But you made a vow, and it wasn't for nothing. The reward for working this out is phenomenal!!! Think of the example you guys will be for your friends and family 6 months, 6 years after you get back together. THEY WILL LOOK AT YOU WITH AWE EVERYDAY. You made it!!! "Damn they're strong!" they'll say. What a great and awesome couple! They didn't just quit, even when it seemed impossible, they made it work…and look at them now!<p>Kev, the truth is, this may not work out, but no matter what happens, you're going to go on in your life knowing you did what you could in the end. You haven't done all you could through the last year, few years, whatever. But, that's OK. Not good, but OK. YOU'RE HUMAN. Be pissed at yourself, feel dumb, kick yourself once or twice. Finished? Good! That's over now. Now you're reading, you're learning, you're improving yourself. You can't change the past. But the present is yours baby! And you've got it by the balls! That's huge. 80% of the morons in this world would, if in your shoes, blame her, stay stupid and screw up several other people's lives. The bad news is…you're going to do it again. Maybe not the same mistakes, or maybe not to the same degree, but I'm back to that whole human factor. That's what she's so scared of. She's got good reason to be scared, she didn't marry Jesus. This is going to turn around for her only if and when she realized that He's not up for grabs, when she realizes that she's in a dating world filled with 80 percenters. Yup. When she got you, she got one of those rare 20% people, who do screw up, but who are always able to get their butts off the ground when the sh*t really hits the fan.<p>Jill, he's not perfect and he never will be. But look at what he's done for you. More than that, think about what he's done for himself. You may get lucky and find someone else in that 20% bracket, but even if you do, you'll be starting over with someone who has no idea what an EN is. He's doing his homework. He'll slip again, you can bet on it. But the tools are there to fix it just that much faster. And the history you two share does matter. I know you're confused, but think…just think…if he wasn't worth it, you wouldn't be confused at all. This would be a snap for you. "What an a**hole!! I'm outta here!" But it's not that easy for you because you're talking about your husband here. And a husband who's done some great stuff lately. Don't let someone else get the benefit of your grief. You're confused. OK, be confused, but get it together soon. What you're going through is, well, I don't honestly know, because I haven't been there, but there's no doubt in my mind that's it's really, really tough. But what he's going through is absolute hell. And there I have been.<p>God bless both of you. Please, please let us know if we can help.

Mr. and Mrs. WLD,

Just wanted to say I went back and read both of your posts again. They are an inspiration still.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She looked into my eyes like she used to…with love and caring and kindness and love!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm still thanking God. I hope many of you get to feel this. I really do. It feels better that falling in love with her the first time. And that was awesome. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I now know this feeling again. How I missed THE look. What joy to see the love return to their eyes. Heaven!

I wanted to ask how things are today? For the both of you but especially from WLDs perspective. Has there been any bitterness, or dwelling on the past so to speak? Have you put it all behind you completely in other words? I am having some trouble with that. That and fear of letting myself get too close again. Fear of being crushed all over perhaps?

jd

Mr.WLD,

I am truly moved by your words. I have recently been blessed by your wife's interest in my problems, and after reading your point of view, I am uplifted.

Last night I had an awful night, and I cried and prayed to God to help me. I think HE did by guiding me to your post today. The words you wrote have given me hope when I was on the verge of throwing in the towel.

Thank You for sharing,

jdmac1,

It sounds like things are going well for you. Cool. Fill me in!

For us, things are AWESOME!!!! Yesterday was Mrs. WLD&#8217;s birthday. We had a great weekend. It was so nice to spoil her all weekend. Saturday I took her to a salon where she spent an hour and a half getting a manicure and pedicure (while I took our girls and went shopping for her). We still have days where we disagree, even get mad at each other, but we&#8217;ve got the tools to work it out each time.

Bitterness? No. Dwelling on the past? Not dwelling, but I&#8217;ll never forget what happened&#8230;nor should I, nor she, nor any of us. They say &#8220;forgive and forget.&#8221; Bull! Forgive. Don&#8217;t forget. If you forget you can&#8217;t learn from the mistakes that have been made. But I&#8217;ve heard people say just that. One will say, &#8220;I&#8217;m worried because this reminds me of back when&#8230;&#8221; The other will say, &#8220;You said you&#8217;d forgiven me for that, but you keep bringing it up! You never really forgave me! You bad, bad person! Will you never let it go?!?!&#8221; If any of you reading this feel like I&#8217;m quoting you here, get a grip. There will be times and situations throughout the rest of your lives that will stir those memories and the emotions that go with them. When that happens, share the info with each other, be open to the conversation if you&#8217;re on the receiving end, and let it be a BIG RED FLAG to you. Mrs. WLD met a photographer at a photo shop she uses some times. He wanted to do portraits of our family. I went in with her once and met him. He bugs me. That&#8217;s all. He doesn&#8217;t necessarily remind me of the OM, but he bugs me and I get some of the same weird feelings when I talk to him. She doesn&#8217;t completely understand why he bugs me, but that&#8217;s OK. She understands that he bugs me and that&#8217;s all that matters to her.

So no, I haven&#8217;t put it all behind me. But that&#8217;s helped our relationship. Understand here that I&#8217;m not saying that I think about her and the x OM every day. In fact, I almost never think about that. I focus on her, on our family, on us. But when those little feelings creep back in, I pay attention. I tell her about it and she does the same for me. We both understand that this stuff will affect both of us and our marriage forever. That&#8217;s a good thing. It means we can both learn from this. It never should have happened, but it did and we will learn from it so that it never happens again.

As for your fear, that will fade as the trust grows. But understand what trust is in a marriage that&#8217;s been hurt by infidelity. It doesn&#8217;t mean, &#8220;Honey, I&#8217;m going out and you should just trust that I&#8217;m not going to mess around.&#8221; NO! It doesn&#8217;t work that way. Not for us. We build trust by illuminating every dark corner in our lives. She knows where I am and when I&#8217;ll be home. SHE MAY CHECK UP ON ME AT ANY TIME! AND I MAY CHECK UP ON HER. We need to keep things so transparent that our spouses never need to wonder. A time will come when there won&#8217;t be a need to check up on each other. But the opportunity and ability should still be there. This is Harley&#8217;s stuff, and it makes perfect sense. That whole &#8220;I need my privacy too&#8221; thing is cr*p. Not in marriage. Especially not a marriage that&#8217;s had these kinds of problems. We&#8217;re one. I will hide NOTHING from her. Not even a birthday surprise or the like. Not until we&#8217;re both comfortable with it, and even then, if the lights have to come on, they come on.

Kily,

Mrs. WLD has mentioned you to me. I hope things get better for you, soon. Keep in touch.