My short answer: All of us on this forum have experienced at least a "low" point in our M's. Therefore, we don't fit our spouse, and at best, we're "settling".<p>"We want what they're having," the top 1 percenters, that is. If we settle we'll never have it, we'll never be in perfect marriages - we're losers.<p>Just like NCAA basketball. 1 winner, 120 losers.<p>Basically, everyone on this forum has the perfect excuse to leave their marriage.<p>What a dumb excuse!<p>
As a teen, tennis was my love. The power forehand that went exactly where I wanted it was "to die for." I have great memories of solid "50 percentile" tennis. Probably shouldn't have wasted my time on a non-winning effort (I wasn't top 1% material)<p>I don't want to debate SNL's fit theory here - there are plenty of threads for that. My proposition is this: assume that SnL is absolutely correct, then... How would the fit theory affect you? What difference would it make in your life.<p>First, I realize that to evaluate someone properly, to see if they fit or not, would take years. Since I didn't get a perfect fit off the bat (only 1 of 100 do, after all) I guess I have to go looking. I'm 40 something, so there's only time for me to check out perhaps a dozen possible partners for fit before I die. Gee, my chances of success are only about 10% (SnL's good at psychology, I'm good at statistics). Darn, might as well not bother, no perfect marriage for me.<p>So, what to do? Being rational I choose to do the best I can with what I've got. Best option? Probably my current marriage? Interesting, sounds sort of MB like.<p>While it's fun to debate the merits of SnL's theory, the theory itself looks to be pretty irrevelant, doesn't it?<p>Just thought y'all might be interested in this "spin" on the issue.<p>I can think of dozens of branches to this line of thought, truly my heads a whirlin' (sorry, stolen line).<p>Jeffers

jeffers...you make me smile [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>and there's a lot of factors in this...<p>What fit me in high school didn't fit me in college...what fit me in college didn't fit me when I got married...what fit me when I first got married didn't fit me when I was pregnant and what fit me last year doesn't fit me now....<p>My problem with 'fit' is the factors...as I grow...change...age...figure things out...get stuck...experience joy...pain...my psychology changes...unless my spouse changed in exactly the same ways...wouldn't we 'fit' less? unless of course...we practiced some of the 'policies' and marriage builders 'techniques'....

TA,<p>You know, my head also hurts sometimes when I get sucked into this question. I finally realized that I was "focusing on the problem, not the solution." (a prize to anyone recognizing that quote).<p>Of course, the solution is about what do I need to be doing right now with my marriage. How do we best use the small amount of time we've been given.<p>I don't really have that much time to post this week, but I just had to get this out. <p>I have another really nice post I'd like to get out sometime this week (about me). We shall see. <p>Jeffers

I've followed some of SnL's discussion threads, and while it is clear he gives a lot of thought to his posts, they seem unrealistic (which I guess is your point). I think he said in one post that people who are "in love" can get only minimal help from the Harley's advice. I think this is setting yourself up for a disaster. At some point, because we are human, we will fail to meet one or more of our partner's needs. If we do not have and use relationship tools to address these issues, resentment and withdrawal are the natural consequesnces.<p>It reminds me of a statement Donald Trump made after ending his last M. He said he divorced his W because he didn't think he should have to work on their relationship! Well if you find the perfect fit and are able to maintain this fit perpetually, perhaps none of us would ever have to work on our relationships or apply the Harley or other marriage building principals.<p>Even if you are in the lucky 1% who find their perfect fit during their lifetime, as Trying Again suggested, the dynamics of personalities and relationships are that they are changing and evolving (perhaps devolving sometimes). Our MC says the spouses in even the best marriges constantly grow in new directions (sometimes apart) but in the better marriages, the partners find a way to grow back together and thereby periodically renew their relationship. The point is, relationships are a lot of work and I really don't believe a perfect or even near-perfect fit exists.<p>Your M is what you are willing to make of it.

Because it's wrong. I believe he always knew his M was going to fail and needed an excuse. This was his excuse for failing, I did not fail my marriage, we just did'nt fit. Hooey.<p>I am not going to be sucked into this thought process. I KNOW we can have a great marriage, but my H has to come to that decision as well. Do we fit, mostly, but not always. Can we be happy together, without a doubt. No excuses, just work at it, with an open heart and an open mind. No need to analyze it to death, just choose marriage, family and hapiness over divorce, pain and loneliness.<p>
and BTW, I did find most of his posts intersting as well as aggravating.<p>Needing

I agree......the 'fit' theory bothers me because SNL uses it as an excuse for everything.<p>It deflects blame from him. Well what's new, all WS's do that.

Hey Jeffers,
I though you are working hard ... LOL !!!. I have one for you but I post it later before the weekend come, about "scraching my head".<p>my 2¢ about fit, I agree with TA but with a added comment that we make adjustment to make it fit. I tolerate my current M even BE is better mate or fit in SNL's world. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] One hope that spouses could adjust to fit in each other thus where MB comes in handy.<p>[ December 11, 2001: Message edited by: redhat ]</p>

The 'fit' theory bothers me because it acknowledges only one of the many factors that go into mate selection and making a marriage work. Flawed 'science' is only, after all flawed 'science'.<p>Interesting the he will not take information as valid that is not based on years of scientific study and data collection. But he is willing to derive his own theory and then try to pass it off as valid... to the point of thinking about writing a book about it. Yikes... <p>I also think that he is using the argument to fill the void so that he does not have to take responsiblity for his relationship. If he keeps talking fast enough, then he will no have to face anything. My 14 year old does this.. it drives me nuts.<p>I am very concerned about Snl because I believe that he is setting himself up to be alone for the rest of his life. Looking for the 'perfect fit' in a mate is nothing more then an excuse for never finding a mate. Why? Becuase all people are flawed and no two people fit perfectly. So when perfection is sought, there is always a valid reason to reject anyone.<p>But then again, y'all better not listen to me. I have no clue what love is. I have settled for a bad marriage because I don't want to start over a 4th time. My husband is a WS, a user of women, and therefore can never redeem himself or repent. And worst of all the marriage that I thought was in a wonderful recovery is an illusion that I use to trick myself into accepting something that is less then 'in-love' and perfect. I am not sure what the passion is that I feel for my H? Another delusion I suppose. If you don't understand what I mean by the last paragraph, ask SnL. He knows more about my marriage, my husband and me then I do.

nina...I agree......the 'fit' theory bothers me because SNL uses it as an excuse for everything.
It deflects blame from him. Well what's new, all WS's do that.<p>snl...Let's be fair, I do not make excuses, I posit therories re human behaviour, that "fit" the facts, and the facts are 80% of marriages are unhappy and the majority divorce. That is not a therory it is reality, there has to be an explanation, and simply saying people didn't try hard enough is simplistic, and flies in the face of human nature. If we can learn how to work hard enough over the last 50,000 years to craft a post-industrial society, I don't think it is unreasonable to surmise we would have figured out how to work hard enough to be happily married. It is not the work that is the issue, it is motivation and what drives motivation.<p>
However, you could be right, maybe I am simply a more eloquent ws than most, and am really just self-serving pondscum.....we will know for sure in less than 100 years probably, if we don't commit species suicide along the way, stay tuned.<p>Jeffers I have considered your math (which I am also very good at) before, and indeed the notion that a small percentage of others will fit us well enough to make it into the majors is intimidating, if not disherartening, but then so is settleing for whoever is next to you now just cause you might not do any better..... anyone here want to be chosen that way? I sure know I don't. I would rather be alone, which is also an option, and maybe the better one....what do you think? I need to curtail my philosophic musings even more, coincidently (after I posted my intent to wind down) the powers that be suggested to me today (made no demands, just a gentle observation) that my um......... efforts while understandable are distressing to many of you (I assume cause complaints have been voiced). And I can understand that, I have always been a little uneasy when I get going, this is not a typical place to discuss something controversial, it is real life in it's most raw, and I recognize I have enough skill to influence people. <p>I cannot gauge the effect (for obvious reasons) on whoever I am speaking with like I could in real life, and that does worry me some. It was also suggested that too much focus on the whys can work against me and become a self-fullfilling outcome. I am aware of those dangers, and allow for them, but sometimes one can get lost in their own stuff for awhile. Does make me feel good though I had decided that was time to stop...before that admonition..whew.<p>and jeffers you are guilty of hyperbole buddy. Taking my points to the ridiculous does not alter the facts. The harleys themselves make it clear not all marriages are worth saving. The question is, and each must decide for themself, where to draw the line. In my estimation that is hard to know, if you don't do a lot of homework first on human psychology, how people fit together, who you really are, who your prospective mate really is, what is marriage supposed to look like, feel like, how much work is too much, and best for all to choose differently. And most important how to deal with an uneven marriage where one wants it a lot more than the other....does that mean someone has to be property? (so to speak).<p>So if you can only interview another 12 prospects or so, are you saying your w is the most likely best choice? Cause that is what you must do if we are gonna make this a settling issue. I have a lot of thoughts about the mathmatical side to all this, but this is no longer the time or place to do that. I may (been thinking this a long time, long before coming to MB) of starting my own little forum on delphi or someplace, to discuss stuff with folks who can do so without being offensive, or flaming etc., kinda of a safe place for people of my ilk. If anyone wants to keep in touch with me, fill free to use jbz999@hotmail.com. Plz no serious flaming, but comeuppances/chastisements are ok if you feel the need. I will try to add anyone to my email list, and if I ever get around to a forum or such, will let you know.

ROFLMAO!!!<p>SNl is gonna write a book??!?! Wow what an ego!<p>
And now he is gonna start a forum for those of his ilk? That will be a forum with a member ship of one hopefully! Gawd to think there are more like him out there. Very scary!

ahh kalgrl I was so hoping you would show up, would have been disappointed had you not. Of course an ego, that is the first requisite to write a book.... right? Should I assume if I should be so bold as to start a forum on delphi (as thousands have done) you would not stop by? May I ask you a question, would you prefer more of your ilk, or my ilk on slow boat to china?

RJB2,<p>Yes, you did get my point. I do make a concession to SnL on this (see my answer to him). Basically, maybe some people are impossible dreamers and can never be happy knowing perfection exists. I don't think that describes most of us in this case. Yes, I agree with TA, that life is about change. SnL has never agreed with that statement, though, if you fit, it's forever and never changes. I more of a grey-area person. A black and white world seems a very harsh place to me.<p>needing and Nina too,<p>It doesn't bother me if he uses this as an excuse. I think my own reaction is more that it feels like a judgement of me and my marriage. That makes it very difficult to think about the issue objectively.<p>redhat,<p>Many of us view change as inevitable and think marriage has to be adjustable to take that into account. I don't think SnL agrees with that view.<p>I have an update that I also hope to post before the weekend. I really am busy... doing all this stuff during my lunch break. LOL.<p>Z,<p>Yes, I think you get my point about what this "fit" theory would mean if we applied it to ourselves as instructed. It doesn't seem to match with the way most of us "actually" live our lives.<p>SnL,<p>I do have a rather long response to your reply and associated questions, it's just not ready yet. I think you'll be interested, please stay tuned.<p>Jeffers

SnL,<p>Yes, I admit to a little hyperbole... but only a little. I think I have been true to your very strict definition of "fit" and "settling". You have always been very resistant to the idea that the line is adjustable. <p>I live by my math sometimes. I used it to illustrate that this is a game I clearly cannot win. I don't play unwinable games. I have never bought a lottery ticket in my life...and never will. I'm too educated to play "the education lottery", yuck!<p>If I can't ever win the true love game, what to do? Guess I'll join the circle of life. Life is a grand, huge game, and not just about marriage... at least that's my POV. I would not be just as happy spending my life alone. <p>I'm very aware that I'm not objective, I'm certainly heavily biased to come up with viewpoints that support the choices I've made. Kinda my point of why we all react so strongly to your view. Being human means were biased when we examine these core issues. Being aware that we might be biased doesn't "unbias" us either.<p>SnL: The question is, and each must decide for themself, where to draw the line <p>I don't remember you ever saying this before, sorry I missed it. (I always thought you resisted this view.) I suspect you may be someone who forever quests for Shangri-la, a place that may or may not exist but in any case is unfindable. We tend to either scorn or idolize such people. They can waste their lives in senseless searching, or discover new miracles. The crazy person or the noble searcher. The majority of us aren't like that - or maybe we all search for "different" Shangri-la's.<p>To answer your final question: did I settle? Yes. I chose to take my place in the circle of life. I can't pretend that I understood it in those terms at the time. I suspect that I may not even have been real good marriage material at the time - my primary interests were elsewhere. <p>I can't answer the question: "Was my W the best choice?" After 20 years I can say that she seems like a good choice, but I haven't lived with any other women for 20 years so how would I know? I've seen your list of adjectives that might describe a relationship with my true love, pretty much what poets say. What do they know about perfect relationships? How do I know what my perfect relationship would feel like? We've had our poetic times, and we've had times that were not so poetic. For all I know it could be the most I'm capable of. I don't think I can ever answer this truthfully without "comparison shopping". I won't do that, so I guess I'll forever have to just wonder about this question. <p>Jeffers<p>P.S. I did have further comments about genetics, etc. that I was going to add to one of the other threads, perhaps I'll just email them to you.

Just my two cents here. I think that more than the concept, SNL's use of the word "fit" seems arguable. It's a matter of semantics to some. We each have our own definition of what "fit" means. And too often, one hears of someone as being the "perfect fit" for the other.<p>I too think that people should "fit," although that's not the word I would use to describe it. I think that friendship is essential first and foremost. Equity in the marriage. Trust. Both parties should *want* to adjust the behaviors in the marriage, if it damages their spouse in a very fundamental way. I'm not talking about leaving the toilet seat up or being a bad cook. I'm mean ... having respect and empathy for each other. My thoughts are that some people are capable of maintaining their respect and empathy for their spouses while others are not. It is possible that some of us posting here didn't really get to know our spouses that well prior to marriage. It may also be true that our spouses didn't take the time to get to know *us* either. <p>After the passion fades, you're left with that person. Either you like them. Or you don't. And vice versa.<p>I can't peer inside SNL's marriage. I do not know his W's story. I cannot possibly pass judgment on his motivations. But I do agree with some of the things that he has to say, from a strictly objective standpoint.<p>belld

belldandy,<p>Sorry I missed this. <p>Yes, we may all have different views on what the word "fit" means, but SnL has been very precise in his definition. <p>I agree with some of the things he has proposed, as well. I even understand how someone might come to develop such a theory. Many parts of it are very reasonable.<p>It just does not seem to me to be a very useful theory if what you want to do is have the best marriage with the person you are currently married to. I believe (personal experience also) that if you work at it, your marriage gets better. If you're willing to work, then "fit" doesn't matter as much. Conversely, if you're not willing to work, then fit is everything and it's "not your fault" if the marriage doesn't survive.<p>Perhaps this is just "fit". If someone doesn't want to work at their marriage, it's just an indication that they don't fit. Someone who wants to work, does so because they fit.<p>It seems that very few people really get to know their spouse before they marry. I wonder if those who do fare any better? Or, if they have to work at it to keep things going, just like the rest of us?<p>Jeffers

jeffers...It just does not seem to me to be a very useful theory if what you want to do is have the best marriage with the person you are currently married to. <p>snl...Absolutely correct. My attempt to understand the behavioural psychology behind successful marriage (what it is, and how we achieve it) I refer to as fitting is mostly about motivation. Once you decide you are going to continue (I assume after some marital crisis) then fit is only useful in decideing what and how to meet needs, something MB is excellent at. Assessing fit is synonomous (or at least should be part of due diligence) in DECIDEING to marry or stay married. Since many here appear lost and injured by people they are trying to love, it seems to me they should first assess whether they are in circumstances that will ever be in-love, or whether they can live with it as settleing. So we discuss what is love, and such, to have a target to work towards, or decide won't work etc. There are reasons why we can be more successfully married to someone than someone else, and that falls under fit. <p>IMO people try way to hard to make sqaure pegs fit in round holes, and will never have much more than civil cohabitation, and I wonder about that, why people do that, and we start talking about fear, and losing, and programming, and such. My goal for me (and share with others) is to throw off my programming, and really take control of my life, including who and how I love. I am not going to be married just cause I am, I am going to be married cause I understand what it is, how to recognize fit and bonding, and what constitutes good mental health. Staying married just cause you are, and trying to make the best of it, is IMO the worst possible reason to stay married, and is essentially about fear, and selfishness. Using your example (plz don't get angry, already ticked zorweb off, don't want to do the same to you, this is all anyalytical to me, not personal, it is a quest for truth, pleasant or not). You are on record as saying you desire to stay married cause is the best you figure you can do. IMO the standard should be different, one should only be married if they are in-love, and that requires fit, if not you end it, even if it means you are alone and miserable. It took me a long time, and a lot of effort to understand that is NOT the same standard all apply. I still don't really understand, but I can see why people do that. But what I do see is people who are supposedly happily married, not acting very happy, and I wonder.<p>jeffers..I believe (personal experience also) that if you work at it, your marriage gets better. If you're willing to work, then "fit" doesn't matter as much. <p>snl...You are right, doesn't matter much, if getting better is the standard. Safe to say any relationship marital or otherwise can be improved by better behaviour of the participants.<p>jeffers...Conversely, if you're not willing to work, then fit is everything and it's "not your fault" if the marriage doesn't survive.<p>snl...hmmmmm, more hyperbole. The issue is why you won't work. IMO it is a direct function of how well you fit...or a personality disorder. I am not sure, but I think personality disorders make you unmarriageable, meaning you cannot hold up your end, and cannot really fit anyways. We have the kneejerk, and unsupported notion, that just cause someone does not want to work at a marriage, they are just a selfish jerk, when more likely, they "recognize" in fundamental ways the lack of fit and do not want to be married. Obviously we are back to where do you draw the line, and how much fit is needed to be in-love?<p>jeffers...Perhaps this is just "fit". If someone doesn't want to work at their marriage, it's just an indication that they don't fit. Someone who wants to work, does so because they fit.<p>snl...In part. As I just said. But humans are complex, and other issues can interfere, it is something that should be taken very seriously, and not just cut and run at the first conflict.<p>jeffers...It seems that very few people really get to know their spouse before they marry. I wonder if those who do fare any better? <p>snl... Alot better.<p>jeffers....Or, if they have to work at it to keep things going, just like the rest of us?<p>snl...Nope, work varies considerably. And IMO when one starts feeling a marriage is "work" and not passion, one is expressing they are in an accomodation, and are not that happy with the contractural choice they made.

The problem I have with the "fit" theory is that it is dicardable (ok...not a real word, but it "fits".. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] )<p>I believe that one of the reasons that the fit theory does not work well is that it projects the "What's in it for me?" psychology. Being a teacher, one of my greatest challenges is to get my kids to think "outside" what they think. Kids are so ego-centric in their thinking, they can't see beyond their own benefits. What they fail to recognize is the joy that giving to someone else brings to their life. If the "fit" theory were so black/white, cut/dry, then the most successful athletic coaches would be total failures in that their teams would never "fit" and play together as a team, since each would be looking for their own rewards, rather than what is best for the team, how they can help in the team's goals and "fit" into the coaches game plan. Personally, I believe that once we quit "giving" and start "expecting", our road is covered with "other opportunities" (read: open to others entering our lives with "better options"). The key to the "fit" is growing..."together". People are not like old coats that, once we gain a few pounds, go into the recycle bin at the salvation army. The "fit" theory centers on what someone else can do for me. The growth theory, I guess that I believe in, is what can I do to bring joy to someone elses life? What can I do to grow "with" this person in order to compliment and complete the imperfect circle that is my life? I have a belief that if I give to the other person the things in their life that are important to them, they will be given back to me in more ways than I can imagine. (I admit having to learn this over time and making a great many mistakes on the road to "enlightenment", but now can focus on that for the second half of my life.) I agree with jeffers...if we go on statistics, we are all going to be losers. But if we go on statistics, the Yankees should have won the World Series over the D'backs this year too, right? (Sorry NY fans, not a jab...LOL) The great thing about psychology, or the sad thing, is that sometimes it forgets the dedication of the human spirit. To quote a sports announcer when speaking of statistics and playing the favorites in Vegas after the big upsets "That's why they play the game on the field."<p>I am not here to say SNL is right or wrong in his theory, but I am not one that any longer believes it has to be about me finding someone to make me happy...cuz I have discovered that I can get more happiness given back.....by giving. I realize the skeptics will say that I have no guarantees that it will be given back, and what a waste if it is not returned. But, to know love, one has to be willing to experience loss. We all have...and continue to search for the same thing...still. Maybe the search should be inside ourselves and what we believe a relationship is all about....rather than looking to what someone else can bring to us??<p>There are those that will say I am being foolish or idealistic. There are those that would call me a dreamer, that I live in fairy tales and romance novels. There are those that say I take a big chance on being hurt or giving too much. So be it...my search began with the same questions...but ended inside me. I know it now works for me to look inward at what I can do, bring, mean in making someone else happy, and I am NOT a doormat or weak, by any means. I am very happy with who my journey has allowed me to become. I have read SNL's posts and think he makes some very good points and some very scary ones....ones that have made me think and rethink...and now I have the answers...for me. It did bother me...as you suggest, jeffers...until I discovered the answers for myself...so thanks...for making me think. <p>*Go confidently in the direction of your dreams.*<p>Trueheart

The whole "fit" theory bother me because my H and I DID fit! I know for a fact that "fitting" doesn't mean a life of effortless perfection. When we got together it was a fairytale. We often spoke about how neither of us ever thought that we would meet someone we connected with so wonderfully. Everything just clicked. We are exactly alike in may ways, and our differences complement each other. I think that "fit" was actually our downfall. Since things were so perfect, we both expected everything to stay that way with no effort on our parts. Then daily stresses, afew big events and depression got factored into the equation and things got rocky. Going into a marriage expected nothing but hearts and flowers forever is asking for trouble. When rough spots eventually show up (as they always do), it's a shock. I do think that people need to fit together, but that doesn't guarantee a thing. Some people never fit, but can still make it work if they both want to. Some people fit in the beginning, then one or both of them change. IMO expecting to find someone whom you "fit" so perfectly that you don't have to do any maintenance on the relationship is asking for a lonely life. No one can live up to those kinds of expectations.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>There are those that will say I am being foolish or idealistic. There are those that would call me a dreamer, that I live in fairy tales and romance novels. There are those that say I take a big chance on being hurt or giving too much. So be it...my search began with the same questions...but ended inside me. <p>I know it now works for me to look inward at what I can do, bring, mean in making someone else happy, and I am NOT a doormat or weak, by any means. I am very happy with who my journey has allowed me to become. <p>I have read SNL's posts and think he makes some very good points and some very scary ones....ones that have made me think and rethink...and now I have the answers...for me. <p>It did bother me...as you suggest, jeffers...until I discovered the answers for myself...so thanks...for making me think. <p>*Go confidently in the direction of your dreams.*<p> <hr></blockquote><p>WOW, Trueheart!...you've really *touched* me this morning...AMEN to what you posted.<p>I, too, am a BELIEVER [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] .<p>In fact, your message reminded me of the song, "Imagine," made popular by John Lennon: <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> You may say I am a dreamer,
but I am not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one. <hr></blockquote><p>No, Trueheart, you are NOT the only one [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] !!! I'm standing right here next to you...confident in what I believe in...imagining the rest of the world joining us!<p>Peace, ~Marie

I think that part of the problem is the way the word 'fit' is used. Call it connection, fit, in common...what ever, but the real issue is not so much a word as a feeling and that is extremely difficult to describe...just like defining the word love.<p>During the A my husband was convinced that we were no longer connected (his perception of things) and that he and OW were a perfect fit. This he tried to prove to me by sharing with me his 'new' feelings, that they had the same emotional needs (she bought the two of them SAA, then he gave it to me...boy was that a mistake), they liked all the same things etc etc. In reality, she was manipulating him big time. Using his neediness to build her self esteem. I had to laugh at the two of them...they were behaving like a couple of teenagers. Doing things that I had done when 16 yr old. But that doesn't last when faced with real life and real life decisions. Apparently it lost its luster, as he seems to think that maybe we still did fit and 'fit' even better now (I mean, why trade in homemade chocolate chip cookies and freshly ironed shirts for store bought and wrinkles?). <p>Hmmm...interesting after all this that I am the one that now wonders if we truly fit. But not because of anything that he did other than force me to face the possibility of living without him. I discovered myself, my strengths, weaknesses, likes, and began to apply them. In a sense he forced our separation and that is the most dangerous thing that he could have done. Because in doing so I also got a fresh look at him and his behaviours and it is this that I have such a hard time with. I havn't created a separate life for myself, I have started living MY life, which in no way excludes him, but if he wants to participate he is going to have to show some initiative.<p>So what is the solution if we find that we no longer feel that 'togetherness'? We are faced with change and we humans dispise change. Why should I have to change me to fit him or vice versa to be happy together? Should we just except each other as is and go on, happy or not? What if we no longer like what we see in the other, is that where we start to manipulate them to get them to do what we want? I think the most important thing that we can do is be ourselves, but how does this tie into plan A if we are trying to always be on our best behaviour? Now that is another topic altogether. <p>I have more questions than answers at this point, but still think that the reason it raised so many arguments is because so many of us have had that very thought but reasoned it away. Having someone toss it right back at us, made us very uncomfortable and out come the barbs and jabs. Just think about it, and why it really bothers you. You might find the answer an interesting one.