Please don't get the impression that I was telling anyone how they should feel. Only what I feel/felt and how I arrived at it.<p>Nduli - what your H did was abhorrant and I would have been tempted to run him down with truck. But what better way to get your revenge than to smile like you don't care, pick yourself up, dust yourself off, say yes I got screwed, but screw you too, I am not going to let this destroy me. And then set out to make a life for yourself of your own making and one that suits YOU. <p>I am not making light of your situation. I cannot imagine your life, I am not living it. But I had my own taste of H*** and vowed that I would not let them take me down to their level; then I found my way and off I went. Hard, hard, hard...and I fought myself all the way. But having got to this point I am glad that I did. I learned a lot and experienced alot that is invaluable.

TowardsTheFuture<p>
RE: I'm not sure why some of the more bitter-sounding BS tick me off on this board. I mean, I understand that they have been betrayed and very deeply hurt. I guess...I just think of how my own situation would be if I were dealing with an SO that was bitter and always throwing things that I had done back into my face. Some of them seem to wear their "poor me" badge a little too proudly...maybe because it absolves them from taking their part of the responsibility for what went wrong in the relationship pre-affair. <p>The thing is that some of the BS’s on this post who sound the most bitter in THIS post are the very people who have worked their butts off to learn about themselves, to become better people and understand their WS’s. I think that maybe part of what you are seeing is that sometimes they come here when they are really hurting and just let it fly… this is the only place they can safely let the anger out. What I am trying to say is that there is a lot going on here that does not meet the eye.<p>As an MB member there is a lot you could do to help the people you are talking about get through their anger. Statements like “some of the more bitter-sounding” is too broad to be of any help to anyone. If you see a member being bitter then you could help by very respectfully and kindly bringing it up to them. Help them through this. You will find that the more you give the more you will get. <p>There are always some BS’s, OP’s and WS’s here who are wearing the “poor me” badge a little too proudly (no implying you by any means). We can gently nudge them out of their corner and help them find a better way. That is why we are here. You have a particular vantage point that others might not. Please share it. Especially on a one to one basis.<p>You are right about the responsibilities here. IMHO… the WS is responsible for helping the BS heal, for repenting, for proving their continued fidelity on an on going basis so as to make the BS feel safe. The BS is responsible for giving the WS a safe place so that they can open up, repent and return to the marriage. BOTH parties are responsible for working on the marriage. The OP is responsible for their actions and for getting out of the picture.<p>RE: If it's the WS's responsibility to repent what they've done, then it almost seems like the BS's responsibility to FORGIVE them for what they've done. Not forget, mind you...but forgive. <p>This forgiveness has to be earned by the WS. It will not be given. But the BS should create safe place where the WS can earn that forgiveness. Dr. Harley has an interesting take on forgiveness… it can be found on the home page of the MB web site. <p>RE: “It makes me sad to see some of these bitter BS...with the kinds of attitudes they seem to be holding on to, I just don't see how they'll get too far in their recoveries any time soon.”<p>Again here is a ‘group accusation’. It can be taken as offensive by those of use who are not of that mentality. I know it makes me think that you are talking about me too. You want people to be accepting and forgiving of you. I understand the pain you are going through. If you will read my last posting to Trueheart on this thread you will see where I am coming from. I feel that I have been supportive of you and would like the respect and understanding returned. Are you saying these things to me? Please say them to the people they are directed at not to everyone.<p>You have many good points to make here and a lot to offer. I know that you are in a lot of pain, but you seem to be lashing out at all BS’s with great anger and bitterness. I know that I have been almost afraid to post to you but have done so anyway as I am trying very hard to see beyond that anger and bitterness. From what you have said, you may have a lot in your life to feel angry about. That’s ok… but please let us in.<p>RE: Another thing...this may not be true for every OP...but I would imagine that many of them are victims in their own right. When you're a WS and you're relationship with your SO is going to hell, it's easy to give false promise after false promise to the OP...easy because at the time you believe these promises yourself...you don't think you're lying (maybe this is what's meant by the "fog").
My OP didn't seek me out...I sought him out. He stayed with me because he loved me and because he believed that we would be together. He's no vicious home wrecker...and even if he didn't deserve your respect, he is at least deserving of your sympathy...as many of the OP are.<p>You see this is where I differ with you. I was an OP once. The guy lied to me and told me that his divorce was ready to be signed. I’d known him since I was 13... We had been child hood sweethearts and had always thought we‘d be married. I was 30 at the time this happened. What he forgot to tell me was that he’s move back in with his wife. When I found out that he’d been lying to me I was furious and immediately broke it off. And rest assured that I was head over heels in love with this man and it tore my heart out. So when I say what I am about to say it is not from the vantage point of an ‘angry, bitter’ BS. It is from the vantage point of an ex OP … one who never wanted to be one but who was none the less. And it is MY OPINION:<p>Our society no longer honors marriage. What we have collectively forgotten is that a marriage is not over until it is over. I was not a victim even though I knew that the divorce papers were filed and being negotiated before I started to see him again. Any OP who stays with a WS once they know that person is married is not a victim. They know that adultery is wrong and that there are consequences. It is not a judgment of the person, but of the action. What I learned from my experience is to not ever, ever date anyone until the ink is dry on the divorce papers. It was a painful lesson. Maybe your OM will have learned that lesson too. If he really is not a home wreaker then I hope he goes in peace and is more careful of his heart in the future. But just like being a WS is wrong, being an OP is wrong. I was wrong. Your OM was wrong. Because we were all wrong does not mean that I am making a judgment of the person. It is the action I am judging. And it does not mean that we cannot all learn from our experience and move on. I have no sympathy for myself for being involved with Tommy while his divorce was supposedly in progress. I have never asked anyone to give me sympathy or forgiveness of that. It was a stupid choice I made. My leaving him the moment I found out about his lie was the only right choice I could make. Since I can give myself no sympathy, I cannot give any other OP any sympathy. It was stupid, stupid, stupid… I suffered terribly for it. I deserved the suffering, it was part of my healing. And I’ve done that totally on my own because I will not burden others with my own stupidity. I have however forgiven myself. I have also never really had closure with Tommy. He was another woman’s husband and he no business giving me one more moment of his time. <p>I know that my take on things might seem harsh. I do not mean for them to be. It is just who I am. I am not angry or bitter. I am emphatic. I wish I could help everyone through their pain. But that is not possible.

TowardsTheFuture...<p>Just as their are stages of grief...there are stages in the recovery process for both the infidel and spouse...<p>Anger is an important part of the recovery process for the spouse...just as withdrawal is important part for the infidel...<p>The more you learn about the anatomy of an affair...the recovery phases...the aftermath...the more processed the affair is and the better recovered the couple can be...

I have picked myself up, dusted myself off and managed everything on my own. I have had minimal help from any family or friends, have not borrowed a dime from anyone and have done this all by force of will. But it doesn't take away the anger at him and her. I doesn't erase the memory of him calling me a F-ing monster and that he was going to ruin me because I e-maied the OW and made her cry. Those things stay with you and unfortunately change you. I will never be as trusting again with anyone and I will most likely never feel 100 percent safe in a relationship. All this was from out of nowhere and no one could have been more shocked than I was at the raw cruelty I was shown. But my ex was mentally ill and I blame myself in some ways for not guessing that his illness could make him capable of these things.
I don't hate anyone but I am angry and tired of this society that seems to encourage trashing other people or at the very least disregarding their feelings. I'm not claiming moral superiority, who can, but I know that my entire life's philosophy has been "do no harm" and now that outlook on life has been taken away due to my feeling that you can't trust anyone and it's best to always be on your gaurd.

Regarding bitter-sounding BS, this place is about being honest about the pain we've suffered and looking for help to fix a mess we played either only some part in, or none at all. (zorweb springs to mind here.) I would never call my husband a big dumb jerk to his face, that would certainly LB, but does it ever help to have somewhere to whisper those words when I'm at wits end. I've even heard his parents say that, proving that loving someone doesn't mean that you have to empathize with their sinful behavior.<p>I would love it if my husband posted here (which he won't because he can't even check our e-mail), but I would expect you all not to let him get away with foggy thinking. Nor would it help our marriage for him to be "validated" by having people respond "Oh, that was terrible of your wife! I can see why you had those affairs, and OBTW, they were wrong, you know."<p>Trying to empathize with wrong-doing and understand how sin works leads to moral relativism, in my opinion, something our country suffers from WAY too much of. My first act when why my children misbehave is to make sure they know that it isn't acceptable and won't be tolerated. Only then do I have the leisure of trying to figure out why it happened so I can prevent it from tempting them again, if possible.<p>Rose Red

Your points are all taken. Thank you (especially you, Z [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] )

I apologize for my blanket statements about "bitter" BS's...it's hard to remember that a lot of our situations are totally different from each other. None of us, whether we're BS, WS, or OP, can really lump any of the other groups into one category. I was just speaking from my own hurt.

TTf,<p>If all this outpouring of words, pain, anger, frustration etc. as shared by all (OP,BS, WS, etc.....) has helped 1 person understand as you have indicated, then it is worth the effort. <p>Many of those responding here and on the other thread speak not from just today but from what they have seen, learned and heard from past experiences both here at MB and abroad. <p>This is not the first time an OW (they show up with a vengence more than OMs)hmmm.... wonder why?!?!? Anyway, this is not the first time an OW shows up here in anger, stirs up the pot, name calls, puts blame, only points fingers and leaves. Leaving behind more pain and hurt on those trying to heal. <p>What do we here do? We as a group pick up the pieces, continue our support (which sometimes comes in various measures of gentle, bold, firm, loving, caring, blunt, humorus, sad, tearful, joyous and sometimes sarcastic). <p>We have done it before and will continue to do so. Those that don't post here much (old timers) showed us how and some of it we still have to learn. In turn, we share what we can with the new ones. Maybe not as well as others but it is our best and with the best of intentions. <p>That is the difference. The reason why we are here. Some BS come here in anger and if they don't change, then their time here is shortened. Not because of others but because of themselves. Same with the WS, OW, OM, etc. <p>So this is just another notch on our belts of survival. <p>JMHO,
L.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TowardsTheFuture:
<strong><p>It makes me sad to see some of these bitter BS...with the kinds of attitudes they seem to be holding on to, I just don't see how they'll get too far in their recoveries any time soon.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I don't know what you are calling "bitterness" but much of what I see called "bitterness" in relation to the BS around here is actually anger towards corruption and deceit. A RIGHTEOUS anger that any decent person feels. And this accusation is usually levelled by those who are bothered by honest direct opinions.<p>Often, WS come here and try to justify the unjustifiable and, I don't know about you, but when I see someone trying to justify, rationalize or deceive, I get a little angry and insulted - and always have. <p>Now is that a result of some bitterness on my part? No, because I am not bitter at all towards my WS. I have ZERO bitterness towards anyone who is honest and doesn't try to bull**** me about what they have done - we have many WS around here who are completely honest and take full accountability for thier actions and I have nothing but good will for them. <p>BUT, ANGER is exactly what happens when a decent person sees corruption or deceit taking place. So I really wish you would clarify what you mean by "bitterness" instead of using a broadbrush that avails no meaning to anyone.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TowardsTheFuture:
<strong>I apologize for my blanket statements about "bitter" BS's...it's hard to remember that a lot of our situations are totally different from each other. None of us, whether we're BS, WS, or OP, can really lump any of the other groups into one category. I was just speaking from my own hurt.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>thanks for saying so, TTF, I didn't see your eloquent statement when I made my last post. Thanks for clarifying your statement.

Just looking back over the post folks and wanted to ask Zorweb a question. You say that "forgiveness has to be earned" - Zorweb I can't remember but are you a christian? I ask because where would any of us be if "forgiveness had to be earned?

renee k,<p>Excuse my butting in on your question. Thankfully, God's forgiveness doesn't need to be earned. We already have it by His grace. That an "us and God" thing.<p>However, human to human forgiveness is a different matter. An evil doer who is repentant and changes his/her ways earns forgiveness. Makes things a lot easier. Sometimes forgiveness simply has to be an act of will from the BS to the WS, something not earned. According to MB concepts, though, the relationship will heal much faster if the WS intentionally behaves in a manner to restore trust and earn forgiveness.<p>Just MHO,
Estes

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by renee k:
<strong>Just looking back over the post folks and wanted to ask Zorweb a question. You say that "forgiveness has to be earned" - Zorweb I can't remember but are you a christian? I ask because where would any of us be if "forgiveness had to be earned?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I agree with Zorweb that TRUST has to be earned, however, the only requirement for forgiveness is REPENTENCE. And repentence is the TURNING AWAY from wrongdoing and feeling remorse, in other words, REPROVING themselves. <p>REPENT
1 : to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life
2 a : to feel regret or contrition b : to change one's mind
transitive senses
1 : to cause to feel regret or contrition
2 : to feel sorrow, regret, or contrition for
- re·pent·er noun<p>
It is bad business to hand out "forgiveness" like some cheap candy to the unrepentent because then they have no motivation to change their ways - and THAT would be doing them a disservice. It simply cheapens the concept of forgiveness to hand it out unbidden.<p>Luke 17:2-4 So watch yourselves. "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.<p>Luke 17:3-5 If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, `I repent,' forgive him."

When you carry it out to it's logical conclusion, zorweb is right. To get forgiveness from a person, one has to REPROVE oneself, which is essentially the same thing as EARNING it.

I'll say this about forgiveness, and it may be where zorweb is coming from too...<p>It's hard enough forgiving once, but when your partner, your spouse, your LIFE cheats over and over again, it FEELS IMPOSSIBLE. No amount of Christian upbringing or belief can just zap the pain of multiple infidelities away.

I just feel like as the Lord's Prayer says "Our father who art in heaven ... forgive us our traspasses even as we forgive those who traspass against us" I believe that Trust must be earned. But I'm personally not willing to dole out forgiveness as an earned thing - heaven knows I need my heavenly fathers forgiveness and he's commanded me to forgive as he forgives me. I'm going with him on this one folks.

I just feel like as the Lord's Prayer says "Our father who art in heaven ... forgive us our traspasses even as we forgive those who traspass against us" I believe that Trust must be earned. But I'm personally not willing to dole out forgiveness as an earned thing - heaven knows I need my heavenly fathers forgiveness and he's commanded me to forgive as he forgives me. I'm going with him on this one folks.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by renee k:
<strong>But I'm personally not willing to dole out forgiveness as an earned thing - heaven knows I need my heavenly fathers forgiveness and he's commanded me to forgive as he forgives me. I'm going with him on this one folks.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Yes, I agree you do need to go with Him on this one. But He outlines the conditions in the Bible, which are that one must repent. Just as it states in the Bible.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by new_beginning:
<strong>I'll say this about forgiveness, and it may be where zorweb is coming from too...<p>It's hard enough forgiving once, but when your partner, your spouse, your LIFE cheats over and over again, it FEELS IMPOSSIBLE. No amount of Christian upbringing or belief can just zap the pain of multiple infidelities away.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>can't argue with that, Sherry!!

Yes I am Christian, Roman Catholic to be exact. My husband is Byzantine (or Malakite) Catholic.<p>Most of issues like forgiveness are about the same in all major religions. The Jewish, Catholic (and Christian), and Moslem faiths all have the same roots. They are all 'OF THE BOOK". So much of the same beliefs hold.<p>Before you read my response to your question, read the letters and replies by at the following link. <p>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042_qa.html<p>Dr. Harley did a wonderful job of explaining the idea of the WS compensating the BS for the wrong of the affairs. That is how forgiveness is earned.<p>MelodyLane's analysis is right. God's forgiveness is freely given. But humans earn forgiveness through repentance. Repentance without acts of contrition is not repentance at all. To simply say one is sorry is not enough. To behave in a manner that shows one's repentance does matter.<p>In Harely's response to letter, he says that the WS must compensate the BS. This of course does not mean money or diamond bracelets. I remember that our first wedding anniversary was 3 months after d-day. I could see STL's gears going.. he wanted to get me the one present for our anniversary that would make it all up to me. For some reason I got the idea that a diamond bracelet was coming. So I sat him down and told him that anything gift of any monetary value would actually be a slap I the face. It would signify that I could be bought off with money. Instead he offered to take me on a long weekend trip to Santa Fe and pamper me. It was like a mini honeymoon. I felt like a queen. He also sent out the no-contact letters at that time. That was great compensation. He knew that I no longer felt special. So he did what he knew would make me feel special.<p>Another example of repentance in action that we have used STL doing things to help me feel safe. He understands that I do not want to feel like I am the police looking over his shoulder always trying to prove he is/is-not cheating. So he willingly put the keystroke monitoring software on his computers, gave me the passwords to all of his email, messenger and email accounts. To show my appreciation for what he is doing and that I too agree to live in total openness and radical honesty I am doing exactly the same thing for him.<p>Another thing he is doing to repent (earn forgiveness) is that he is very supportive of my pain. The way he puts it is that he has caused the pain, therefore he must help heal it. He has been by rock and comfort though all of this. To watch how he could stand there and admit to me what he did and then help me work through it has shown me that he is the man of character I thought I had married. It takes quite a person to do that all the while wanting for it all to be forgotten. In tern I make sure that I judge and LB to him as little as I can. I am well aware of the gift he is giving me in his repentance and support.<p>So repentance earns forgiveness (though Dr. Harley says it should probably never really be forgiven. I think that it eventually will be totally forgiven by me. I am working on that one.) And repentance though action is the way to compensate the BS for the hurt of the WS's affair(s).<p>Trust and forgiveness are very tightly coupled, IMHO. So if one is working on earning one, the other can be earned too.<p>Yes it is possible for human's to give forgiveness freely. But I am often not sure this type of forgiveness, for very grievous actions, is sincere. Don't know? I'm not a theologian and have not thought through all possible case here. I do know that it is in our best interest to strive to "forgive those who trespass against us."<p>RE: Luke 17:3-5 If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, `I repent,' forgive him."<p>Note that from this passage, a person must repent for each sin individually.<p>RE: But I'm personally not willing to dole out forgiveness as an earned thing - heaven knows I need my heavenly fathers forgiveness and he's commanded me to forgive as he forgives me. I'm going with him on this one folks.<p>Where does the heavenly father command us to forgive as he forgives us? The Lord's prayer is not a commandment. It is an example prayer, written to teach people who to pray with humility and praise of the Lord. The prayer is statement of a human's wish to be able to forgive and realizing that they cannot ask for any more forgiveness then they dole out themselves. For those of you who can look this up. Is there something in the bible that contradicts Luke 17:3-5?<p>Remember that God and Jesus recognize that we are not at the same level they are. We can only strive follow their example. But in Luke 17:3-5 it is clear that we are not expected to blindly forgive. There are some very stringent rules set down in the Bible and other church readings. I do not believe that blanket forgiveness shows up anywhere.<p>One thing to remember is that unlike many BS's I share absolutely no part in my h's affairs. I have no responsibility for a deteriorated relationship at the time of the affairs. This is unusual but it does happen. So my feelings about there might be different if I had been instrumental in the deterioration of our relationship. In my previous marriage I know that I was not perfect and contributed to the problems. But not in this marriage. Melodylane is right about the number of affairs too? my H had affairs going with atleast 10 women. The sheer volume of it makes my stomach and head hurt. There is a lot to get through in my relationship.<p>I don't know if I am right or not. This all my opinion in the final analysis. All I know is that the approach is working wonders for STL and I. We are well into a very strong recovery. And I am well on by way to forgiving him. We all know that neither he nor I will ever forget. But that's good? maybe the memory will keep us on track.