Z,
To be clear, I am not saying that that is all I have heard here. Far from it! However, that is ONE of the things that I have heard here.<p>I have been taught many wonderful lessons while reading/posting here. Make to mistake about it. You guys have been amazing teachers. And if you have not shamed me or anyone else (which I don't think you have) then that statement was not pointed toward you.<p>I was making a general statement about SOME of the things that I have seen here. I'm not saying that that's ALL i've seen here.<p>But make to mistake about it, I have been told, ON THIS SITE "you should be ashamed." I was saying that for those who think that that approach is the answer, it is my opinion that it is not!<p>I could also post all day about the enlightening things that I have read here.<p>What's interesting to me is that I posted a long message about other things and it was the 1-2 sentances about "shame" that everyone picked up on.<p>[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: Katie Scarlett ]</p>

Katie,<p>I have not really followed this thread but this comment kinda struck a chord with me:<p>Katie:
"I should restate the coment about shame. I 100% believe that anything begun in anger will end in shame. So it is true that affairs often end in shame."<p>I never applied it to an affair but my own experience has taught me when I react with anger I am usually sorry for my words/actions. Are you saying that many A's are started out of anger towards the BS? Please elaborate.<p>
katie:
"However, if a person is in a tough situation, feeling bad and down. Contemplating an affair, making them feel (or trying to make them feel) ashamed is not the answer. On the back end of an affair. After it's all said and done trying to shame the WS or OP is not the answer. Just my opinion. EMA's are a reaction to something. It's a coping mechanism. Feeling bad, here's a pick me up."<p>
I will concede that just about every BS including myself does or has engaged in "shameing" sooner or later. It usually happens when the BS is in extreme pain. It's a coping mechanism. The problem most of us BS's face is that after we move through the pain we want to understand and heal. Since we've already used "shame" as a tool we aren't allowed to ask questions and/or any comments that are made about the A are perceived by the WS as trying to get more "ammunition". We simply shot ourselves in the foot without knowing it. Don't know what the solution is but that's what I've learned in my situation. Many OP and WS say we are being high and mighty and we need to get down off the soapbox. Problem is many times it's the WS that places us there without our permission.<p>
katie:
"Shaming or attempting to shame (I think) drives WS or OP to more destructive behavior. Not away from it."<p>This is the basic problem in the A. The destructive behavior is being blamed on the BS. This pattern (blame) has to be broken by the WS. I will agree that it is unhealthy and not right for the BS to shame the WS. Regardless if the BS is engaging in "shameing" behavior it is still the choice of the WS to continue the destructive behavior. The WS can choose (in most cases not all - I know SNL) to get out any time they want. It's just easier for them to continue to blame the BS. The problem with shame and guilt doesn't really have to do with the BS. When the WS has guilt and shame it's a good thing. It shows they have remorse and are capable of learning from their mistakes. The question is weather they will learn from it or use it as a tool like many BS's do.<p>My W and I are seperated but we have remained good freinds. I can honestly say after a year of therapy and endless talks the single most important thing she has learned came from the movie "Princess Diaries". We were watching this movie on Christmas day with the kids. The limo driver says to the princess "Nobody can make you feel bad without your permission". W just said "Wow - That's pretty powerful". It made me feel real good for her. <p>who

Scarlett,<p>One thing I have noticed on this forum (and this is the only internet forum I have ever participated in... well except for about 5 posts on gloryb.com ... they were all erased by the moderator... lol) is that people will pick up on a point and address it as a blanket statement. For example, your statement about 'shame' sounded as though you were talking to everyone on this board. I did feel that you were talking about me, and others. Maybe it's that good old 'Catholic Guilt', think so? With no clarification who knows who was being addressed. After all you did mention my analogy of Hitler... it was not about you or any one person, it was about "humans seeking happiness" justification for affairs. But I've explained myself for that one till I'm blue in the face. Perhaps we could all do a much better job of being very specific about which comments we are responding to.<p>I have seen some posts to you where people have told you that you should be ashamed.I can see where this would wear on you. In many respects you have stood up to the plate, looked at your deamons and are healing. Like all of us, you too have a ways to go. Those were made by individuals. None of us speak for anyone else here. <p>This thread has taken a huge turn... its started out as painforever's heartfelt pouring out of his story. I have been very careful to not address his post directly as it stands by itself. I am sure it was not easy for him to write it. But the thread has turned into a theoredical discussion about the
what part the WS, BS and OP'S play in affairs. I think we are all trying to figure out where we stand on this. There have been so many threads like this since joined this forum months ago. It seems that each new group of MB members have to hash this one out. <p>But both sides have to listen to the other. I pontificate all day about this this stuff. But on a one to one basis I know that we all need to be given the opportunity for redemption as we have all 'sinned'. It helps no one to be harsh and to shame another.

I never applied it to an affair but my own experience has taught me when I react with anger I am usually sorry for my words/actions. Are you saying that many A's are started out of anger towards the BS? Please elaborate.
I think that many affairs begin as anger. I can't say that it's always anger at the BS. Anger with one's life, situation, marriage. It can be anger at anything. Is not an A a vengeful act? It seems a pretty mean and agressive thing to do if you're married. I have cheated on many boyfriends. (for me) It ALWAYS begun with the though of "i'm so pissed..."<p>
katie:
"Shaming or attempting to shame (I think) drives WS or OP to more destructive behavior. Not away from it."<p>This is the basic problem in the A. The destructive behavior is being blamed on the BS. This pattern (blame) has to be broken by the WS.
I would think that the pattern of blame has to be broken by somebody. Reguardless of weather it is BS or WS.<p>I think that blaming, shaming becomes a circle. (ie. you didn't meet my en's so I had an A. You had an affair so why should I meet your en's.) Somebody has to step off of the marry go round. I can't be the one to say who should step first. In my reading here I have gathered that plan A is about stepping out of the cycle. So that way a BS can say "ok, I am meeting your EN's...what are you going to do?"<p>Am I wrong?<p>Seeking education here.

Z,
that happens ALL of the time on these forums. And in real life too! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

Hey, Katie,<p>You've got it!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] At least in son's case, exactly. DIL was angry, said so (afterwards, not before A, unfortunately). <p>Katie:
"In my reading here I have gathered that plan A is about stepping out of the cycle. So that way a BS can say "ok, I am meeting your EN's...what are you going to do?"<p>
Exactly my son's interpretation,Katie, and what he actually has done. Unfortunately (again), DIL isn't doing much about it. Sadly, her decisions are complicated by her being clinically depressed, possibly bipolar. They are living under the same roof finally after 8 months. There is still hope.<p>Take care,
Estes

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
<strong><p>
I think that blaming, shaming becomes a circle. (ie. you didn't meet my en's so I had an A. You had an affair so why should I meet your en's.) Somebody has to step off of the marry go round. I can't be the one to say who should step first. In my reading here I have gathered that plan A is about stepping out of the cycle. So that way a BS can say "ok, I am meeting your EN's...what are you going to do?"<p>Am I wrong?<p>Seeking education here.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>
Others would probably be better at explaining plan A than I but I'll give you my opinion.<p>First, I agree 100% with the circle. Plan A is a guidline to get out of that pattern. Most of us make the mistake of "expecting" results and changes from the WS when we first start Plan A. While the changes are good they aren't necessarily real until we accept that the WS might not come around. Then we decide if the lessons of plan A are what we really want and need in our life. At that point they start becoming real and a part of the new and improved BS because the BS wants to be that way all the time. <p>
Thanks for the reply,<p>
who

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:

I think that many affairs begin as anger. I can't say that it's always anger at the BS. Anger with one's life, situation, marriage. It can be anger at anything. Is not an A a vengeful act? It seems a pretty mean and agressive thing to do if you're married. I have cheated on many boyfriends. (for me) It ALWAYS begun with the though of "i'm so pissed..."<hr></blockquote><p>Katie,<p>This is a very interesting concept, never really thought of it this way, but it does make sense. <p>I'm going to start a thread asking our member's what their thoughts are on this.<p>Thanks, Katie.<p>Jo<p>[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

Dear Katie:<p>I have read this thread, as well as your posts, with much interest.<p>It is my opinion that you have come here (marriagebuilders) to learn/heal yourself...and for that, you should be commended!<p>It is also my opinion that you are making progress...but (like most of us [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] ), have more work to do!<p>When I go back to your very first post on this tread, I notice a few things...<p>First, you say: <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>It was a beautiful (if limited) relationship, and this much time later I don't regret it. I feel guilty that I dont regret it, but I don't. <hr></blockquote><p>
And, later on, you say: <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I got to live my life, date, keep him as a friend/lover and play at commitment. I didn't want "the real thing" there was NO WAY that I could have handled it.
<hr></blockquote><p>And, further down... <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I now understand that it was unfair to his wife and children...<p>More and more these days I get the idea of esteemable actions and global community. That in helping create an environment where his children/wife were wounded and sad, I helped create sadness for the planet and ultimately for myself. <hr></blockquote><p>So, is it right to conclude that you are now aware of how your actions affected your MM's wife and children...yet you still have no regret???<p>And, if so, why don't you feel regret? <p>Then again, perhaps you meant to state something more like, "I regret the affair because of the pain it caused (myself and others), yet I do not regret the feelings I had for MM?" Or, to state that, "I don't regret the learning experience, but I regret how I was able to learn????<p>Skipping forward to your recent thread: <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>But make no mistake about it, I have been told, ON THIS SITE "you should be ashamed." I was saying that for those who think that that approach is the answer, it is my opinion that it is not! <hr></blockquote><p>I don't think 'shame' is something to be afraid of, or embarrassed about. I've been ashamed plenty of times in my almost 40 years of life. Shame is simply a painful sense of having done something wrong, improper, or immodest. Many times, shame eventually follows regret-- unless of course, one is unable to see where their actions have been wrong, improper, or immodest.<p>It may be true that telling a WS/OP that "they should be ashamed", won't help matters; however, it doesn't take away the fact that affairs are wrong, improper, and immodest...and therefore, can be considered shameful acts. <p>Perhaps, you have not reached the level of growth needed to admit to yourself that you have done something which is (considered by many) shameful...that you have acted selfishly and without regards to how your actions utlimately affected others.<p>As one, like you, who studies Global Peace, I would like to share with you some wise words from the Dalai Lama: <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>A universal humanitarian approach
to world problems seems the only sound basis for world peace. <p>What does this mean: We begin from the recognition mentioned previously that all beings cherish happiness and do not want suffering. It then becomes both morally wrong and pragmatically
unwise to pursue only one's own happiness oblivious to the feelings and aspirations of all others who surround us as members of the same human family. <p>The wiser course is to think of others also when
pursuing our own happiness. This will lead to what I call 'wise self-interest,' which hopefully will transform itself into 'compromised self-interest,' or better still, 'mutual interest.'<p>Although the increasing interdependence among nations might be expected to generate more sympathetic cooperation, it is difficult to achieve a spirit of genuine cooperation as long as people remain indifferent to the feelings and happiness of others. <p>When people are motivated mostly by greed and jealousy,it is not possible for them to live in harmony.<hr></blockquote><p>Peace, ~Marie<p>[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: ohmy_marie ]</p>

About whothehellisshe's comments about BS's using shame as a tool and that when they then want to undestand the WS will not give info because of the prior use of shame.<p>I really do not believe I have used shame with STL. Except for the first few days when I was loosing my mind.. like when he was denyiny any affairs until I handed him the phone... I'd called one of his OW and had her say hi to him. My mother-in-law was staying with us that day. It's a very good thing she is deaf. Poor lady, her ears would have fallen off. So no I am not perfect but I have been very carful not to use shame as a matter of course.<p>I too am still trying to understand. STL answers any questions I ask. But he cannot tell me the why's and wherefores. He did not love any of the OW'en. As good as our recovery is going.. I still struggle with how he could have done the the things he did and say that he loved me through the entire thing. For example.. how could he have married me knowing that he had a weekend fling planned for the next weekend? How could he have gone through with the weekend fling and still say that he loves me. We discussed some of this last night. He told me that he loves me so much it hurts.. in a good way but it hurts. I am feel the same about him. And he says that he has felt like that about me since very shortly after we met. I know that we can find all sorts of reasons like he was still all screwed up from his previous marriage. But can anyone tell me anything that will help make sense of this? How does a person do this? He cannot tell me.. all he can say is that he was not making good choices. He does not know how he could have acted so out of character<p>Another intersting thing is that although he says he loved me through it all, in retrospect I can tell that the affairs were pulling him away from me. There are things that I see very clearly now that make this obvious. I believe that if he had not ended the affairs he would have eventaully built such a wall between us that he would have arrived at the usual 'I was never in-love with you' reasoning. An he would have arrived at that by his own design, not because I as not meeting his ENs or because I was a terrible wife pushing him away. It is a coping mechanism to help a person explain their own actions to themselves.<p>This is the type of thing that every BS is struggling with and it seems never gets a resolution to. Can anyone here give me an answer as to how a person can do this? Can anyone tell me something that will put my mind to rest? The explaination that he was simply a human seeking happiness does not do it for me. Why does his 'happiness' have to be at my expense? His saying that he knows that what he did was wrong and admitting it does not do it for me either. I seek the key, the one thing that will make it the confusion and pain go away. I do not believe that one thing exists. It's just like the pain from the still birth of my twins. Somethings have no explaination and only time can heal. There is no magic key. But it really does help that he will discuss this with me, answer my questions and be there for me as I mull it over. That is a loving jesture that I respect him for. I do not seek to shame him or anyone else, only to find my own peace.

zorweb and all,<p>I have struggled with your question also.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Can anyone here give me an answer as to how a person can do this? <hr></blockquote><p>The only answer that in my humble reasoning continues to hold up is that at a particular moment in time, the WS cares more about what he/she wants than about anyone or anything else ( BS, children, religious beliefs, family, marriage vows, etc., etc.) I am satisfied with this answer about how a person can commit adultery.<p>The questions that I continue to ponder are 1) What events led the person to these actions? and 2) What can be done to help people avoid reaching this point?<p>Estes<p>[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: Estes49 ]</p>

Estes,<p>You pose a very good question.<p>Altho my answer sounds simplistic, I'd say "good communication" in a marriage would be key in preventing an A.<p>So, I'll throw a question back your way then ... how do you foster and continue to nurture "good communication" in a marriage???<p>Jo

Let me first say that it's a little freaky that some one can quote me that way. Espically someone that I've never even heard of. Thatnotwithstanding:<p><strong>So, is it right to conclude that you are now aware of how your actions affected your MM's wife and children...yet you still have no regret???<p>And, if so, why don't you feel regret? </strong><p>This is the thing for me. In my heart I still feel like maybe it was no big deal to them. Maybe they really didn't know. When i'm thinking about it I often think if it effected them, as opposed to "since" it effected them. I have never seen proof that anybody cares what happened between he and I. To a certain respect is doesn't seem real. Kind of like if a tree falls and nobody hears it... I wonder ALL of the time if this affair had any effect.<p>Maybe that would make it real for me. I have no idea.<p>Then again, perhaps you meant to state something more like, "I regret the affair because of the pain it caused (myself and others), yet I do not regret the feelings I had for MM?" Or, to state that, "I don't regret the learning experience, but I regret how I was able to learn????<p>To be honest i'd have to say "i regret the affair if it casued any pain."<p>I DO NOT regret the pain that it caused me. They were lessons that I needed to learn, and the A helped me to learn them. However, it is true that as I mature I learn/grow sans the pain. But I believe that you learn through pain until you figure out how not to.<p>I don't regret my feelings for MM. He was one of the great teachers of my life. And for that I am forever grateful.

Estes, <p>RE: The only answer that in my humble reasoning continues to hold up is that at a particular moment in time, the WS cares more about what he/she wants than about anyone or anything else ( BS, children, religious beliefs, family, marriage vows, etc., etc.) I am satisfied with this answer about how a person can commit adultery.<p>I agree totally with you on this one. Most days I have a pretty good grasp on this. On those days my rational mind knows this. My intellect understands. Even my heart gets it. But once in a while my gut takes over feels the knife being turned. Like today, the roller coaster dips down a bit. Does not happen often for me anymore. But is part of the healing process do I just live through days like that knowing that tomorrow will surely be better.<p>I came to believe several months ago that the WS and OP both come to a point at which they do not care about anyone else, religious beliefs, family, marriage vows, etc. All they care about is their own 'happiness'. Many BS's here have expressed that. Yet I have never heard any WS or OP (except maybe Scarlett) say that out loud. Anytime anyone has brought this up to a WS or OP they deny it. Yet it is so obvious. Is this only a justification that the BS uses to make themselves feel better? Who knows.<p>RE: The questions that I continue to ponder is 1) What events led the person to these actions? and 2) What can be done to help people avoid reaching this point?<p>Yep, this is where STL and I are focusing our attention right now. I do believe that if a couple truly lives by the MB concepts (or others like them) this will go a long way to prevention. But there is the other part of it? as in our case, many people have affairs because of issues they are dealing with that have nothing to do with the marriage or the BS. These must be addressed too.<p>I do still wish that I could find that little bit of magic that would make the pain go away. I do not want the memory and the lessons learned to go away. Only the pain and the nagging questions that go along with it.

Wow! As a WS myself years ago I'm amazed at how much said in these posts seem to be right on. I'm an old time poster that rarely posts at all anymore. But I can see that in the last couple of years it seems the betrayed and the wayward spouses are listening to each other and learning from each other. To keep a marriage strong it can never be taken lightly, never taken for granted. Communication skills and time alone are two primary tools needed to keep a marriage strong. If your marriage is strong your marriage can be affair proof.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
<strong>I don't regret my feelings for MM. He was one of the great teachers of my life. And for that I am forever grateful.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>This sends shivers down my spine. <p>Let me tell you what my OM taught me:

• How to be a sneak - I have always been an "open book, until the affair. I began hiding things like notes from the OM and pictures.
• How to lie - I believe in TOTAL HONESTY and LIVED IT until my affair. It went against everything I believed in, but I lied my face off to "save" our "beautiful relationship"...
• How to pretend - I pretended he and I were destined to be together. We had hopes and dreams... and sometimes we'd drive down the street and I'd say, "Please just keep driving until we end up anywhere but here" and we planned to move in together and go on vacations at the beach and lay in his hammock all the live-long day, naked, of course, because we were so natural and beautifully in love.
• How to make a fool of myself - When it came out and I was still in the fog, I would do anything to protect him - HIM, not my (then)H, not my children, not myself, but HIM.

<p>I regret everything surrounding my affair, from the fact that it happened to the fact that he exists on this earth at all. No, I'm not wishing him dead, I just wish I'd never laid eyes on him. And, for the record, he isn't a "bad guy" (as in, he didn't hurt me in any way except to help ruin my life)... he was just the worst thing to EVER happen to me.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by new_beginning:
<strong>
Let me tell you what my OM taught me:

• How to be a sneak
• How to lie
• How to pretend
• How to make a fool of myself

<p>I regret everything surrounding my affair...</strong><hr></blockquote><p>NB,
I don't know what to say to you. As I was single person who was childless when my A began my expereince was VERY different.<p>I never lied, sneaked or pretended to ANYBODY about our relationship. I tend to be a kind of "in your face" kind of person. (I know you're all shocked by that news [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] ) I felt like my relationship was a good and beautiful thing. I walked down the street holding his hand. No ducking, dodging, making excuses. To me this was a regular relationship with an extra twist. I treated him as I would any other boyfriend.<p>What the heck did I know about marriage. ABSOLUTELY nothing!!!<p>I know now that he was lying like crazy. But as far as I was concerned I was living a (mostly) honest and clean life.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by zorweb:
<strong>RE: The questions that I continue to ponder is 1) What events led the person to these actions? and 2) What can be done to help people avoid reaching this point?
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>
Z,
you've got to know that to a ceratin degree, this is an inside job. The only thing that I can compare this to is my drinking. Anything in the world can happen, there is no excuse for me to drink. AA old timers say "you're a*s can fall off. Is that an excuse to drink? NO! You pick your a*s up, but it in a bag and come to a meeting."<p>You can't prevent someone else from acting out in the way that they want to. The most that you can do is to create for yourself, and for your mate an atmosphere that makes cheating less likely.<p>To use myself as an example. I can stay out of bars. My mate can keep booze out of the house. We can throw parties, join clubs and make friends who are all non-drinkers. And then the choice is up to me. Because there will always be temptation out there. Always! It's MY choice as to how i'm going to deal with it.<p>Personally, I maintain my spiritual, physical and mental health. Then staying out of trouble is easy.<p>But when any of the three begin to slip, i'm in trouble.<p>Hope this helps.

Jo,<p>Boy, this takes it back to basics doesn't it? I think that MB and probably most relationship counseling is about good communications. Then as you ask, HOW?<p>I think that for a M to be successful (to me that means mutually fulfilling) good communication must begin before a couple agrees to marry. I know this is idealistic, but I guess that is what we are striving for, the ideal marital relationship.<p>Continuing to be idealistic, what if a waiting period with mandatory counseling were required before a couple could be married. What if communication skills were taught in these sessions? Carrying this further, what if young people were required to take courses in human relationships beginning in middle school (my territory) and continuing through high school. Wow. OK, pop the bubble, and back to real life.<p>Maintaining good communication is a decision. It rarely just happens. To work right it takes two people, but if only one person is committed to the concept, they need to be sure they speak plainly and directly, write it down if necessary, and avoid LB.<p>If both partners commit, good communication is an ongoing process that must be continually nurtured. How? I have read about the concept of a weekly family meeting - a scheduled, sit-down-across-the-table-and-talk-things-over type thing. I think that I read something about this from the Harleys, but I can't find it. The partners actually discuss EN, negotiate, plan on how to spend time together, etc., and they continue this the ENTIRE M. Wouldn't it be great if we all had known to do that? <p>Want to know something sadly ironic? Son and DIL did this in the beginning of their M. They were so diligent. They even shared their insights with us. They read HN,HN, Five Love Languages (close), did personality profiles, went through Christian counseling, etc., and what happened still happened. Why? I think they lost their focus in the day-to-day activities of living, and in doing so, they may well have lost each other. <p>Maybe that's it, Jo. Good communication AND focus. <p>Considering the importance of stable families to strong societies, maybe M should have yearly inspections to make sure they are sound, just like our cars.<p>In specific reference to your anger thread, how do we detect underlying anger (past history) in a potential spouse so that we can make an informed decision before we marry, and how do we defuse building anger within a M before it reaches a crisis point? Good and focused communication?<p>Estes

zorweb, <p>z:
But there is the other part of it? as in our case, many people have affairs because of issues they are dealing with that have nothing to do with the marriage or the BS. These must be addressed too.<p>
This is sooo true. Our partner's history outside our relationships influences the relationship in ways over which we have no control. And if there are unresolved issues brought into the M, there are two strikes against them before they even start.<p>True with my DIL. Her history influenced her interactions with my son in ways he could not do anything about. <p>Same with you and STL. Things were going on in his head that you didn't cause and nor could you do anything about.<p>
______________
To Katie,<p>
Katie:
What the heck did I know about marriage. ABSOLUTELY nothing!!!<p>Katie, your parents' marital history gave you no model to follow, so lack of perspective influenced hs your ability to empathize with MM's W and kids. I see you gaining perspective, and I'm glad. BTW [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] , if a tree falls in a forest and there is no one to hear it, it does still make a sound. (science teacher here) And sadly, even though an OP doesn't perceive damage to the BS and kids, it still occurs. <p>How complex and diverse we are. I am thankful for our ability and willingness to try to understand.<p>Estes