Here is my philosophy -
The one underlying theme that characterizes the Bible is Obedience. Jesus stated if you love me you will obey my commands. If people want to act like Jesus, one of the first things they can do is know the Old Testement. He did. God lays out his laws and decrees throughout. He has not rescinded any.
When is someone saved? When they repent from their sinful ways and obey God. In that state, we become much more in tune to avoiding that which is displeasing to God. No one is saved by religion and the traditions of man. You can go to church every Sunday and spout the correct rhetoric, but if there is no change in your actions, then salvation is questionable. I did not say this, God did. Unfortunately, that is where many stand today, in their religious traditions.
At no time are we told to bear fruit, but to abide in Christ (John 15). If we abide in Him, He is the one who produces the fruit.
God's laws are simple and straightforward. He leaves no room for fudging. "Thou shalt not commit adultery". There it is in black and white. Lay all the emotional baggage aside. Folks can rationalize that one all they want but it still says do not. I find it hard to believe that someone who calls themselves saved (Christian not being the same thing) would enter into the act. The act of adultery is not constrained to time. Adultery is a constant state until repentence. If couples married after engaging in adultery/infidelity, they are in a lost state and should separate as part of repentence. God will not bless what has been cursed from the beginning. If you can justify adultery, then Katie bar the door.
One more "benefit" - God turns us over to our sinful ways when we constantly disobey him as we allow ourselves to sink lower and lower. That is called deluded.

ok...The one underlying theme that characterizes the Bible is Obedience. Jesus stated if you love me you will obey my commands. If people want to act like Jesus, one of the first things they can do is know the Old Testement. He did. God lays out his laws and decrees throughout. He has not rescinded any.<p>snl...I agree, so do most Christians. The problem (as you know) is interpreting/applying those rules. For example Thou shalt not kill. Pretty clear, and some Christians claim they would never do so, even to save their life, even to save the life of their child..... however, most agree that not killing is not an absolute, and killing can be done without sin depending on circumstance. The same difficulty can be applied to every rule, every admonition, simply cause we cannot know with absolute certainty God's will.<p>ok...When is someone saved? When they repent from their sinful ways and obey God.<p>snl...Not exactly, the only thing that saves you is believeing Jesus was the son of God, lived, and died to take away our sins, that's it. But it would be difficult to understand how someone could believe that, and still want to sin.<p>ok...You can go to church every Sunday and spout the correct rhetoric, but if there is no change in your actions, then salvation is questionable. I did not say this, God did. Unfortunately, that is where many stand today, in their religious traditions. <p>snl..Exactly, and anyone who deals with marriage in a legalistic dutiful way is guilty of just what you say, it is no more exempt from this mindset than going to church and thinking you are saved by going through the motions. A marriage license, and vows do not make you married/oneflesh.<p>ok...God's laws are simple and straightforward. He leaves no room for fudging. "Thou shalt not commit adultery". There it is in black and white.<p>snl...I agree.<p>ok...I find it hard to believe that someone who calls themselves saved (Christian not being the same thing) would enter into the act. <p>snl....Me too. But ya know ok, you could say the same about sin in general, why does ok sin?<p>ok...The act of adultery is not constrained to time. Adultery is a constant state until repentence. <p>snl...Hmm, I guess I am not real up on repentance, but it makes sense that if we know we are defying God's will, we have a problem, and need to deal with it.<p>ok...If couples married after engaging in adultery/infidelity, they are in a lost state and should separate as part of repentence. <p>snl...You cannot link adultery and infidelity, they are two different things, with different definitions and different consequences. I am not aware of a Scriptural definition for lost state, unless you mean we are all lost, cause none are sin free, nor ever will be sin free, that is why Jesus came to save us...right? But anyways your comment is just another way of saying whoever you "marry" (whatever that is, and many who marry are decidedly not spiritually married IMO), you are in a special state with until you die. I completely disagree with that, nor does the Bible say explicityly or implicitly that is so. <p>ok...God will not bless what has been cursed from the beginning. <p>snl...If God is gonna curse something, I spect He will make it clear to the recipient, no one else can have the slightest idea the state of given individuals relationship with God.<p>ok...If you can justify adultery, then Katie bar the door. <p>snl....I assume that was a generic statement, and I agree with it.<p>ok...One more "benefit" - God turns us over to our sinful ways when we constantly disobey him as we allow ourselves to sink lower and lower. That is called deluded. <p>snl...Then are we all deluded ok? Cause each and every human being constantly disobeys God's laws, including you....correct? But I agree, we should love God, and want to obey, and that truth is in our hearts.<p>estes, as to the agree to disagee (keeping word)...let me ask you this....What does estes do when she pridefully gives her word, and circumstances arise that make it clear God wants something else...... does she pridefully ratioalize God's will away (or bury her head in the sand and ignore it), or does she realize one's word is always conditional, cause we are imperfect human beings.....therein lies the answer to pride. IMO re marital issues, those who say their motivation is just about vows, that nothing else matters, are guilty of pride, they keep their word for their own benefit. I personally would not want to be married to such a person, I do not want to be a project, or loved sacrificially. A vow makes your spouse property, an object, and usurps God's will, which in our freewill we may have ignored, and did not marry in the manner God planned for us. If you blindly follow a vow, you may never hear what God has to say.<p>I know this kind of thing is annoying and unsettleing, but it is inescapable. There is no Biblical basis for the position people take on vows, it is a prideful secular construct. The Bible tells us much about marriage, how it is supposed to look, feel, and so forth....it does not say it is an absolute, and vows are an absolute, therefore they mean very little about marriage itself, and are a human attempt to control our future. We cannot do that, the future is always in God's hands.<p>meaningful Christmas, I like that, thank-you...wishing you the same, and to all the rest here who put up with me as well.<p>[ December 24, 2001: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong>ok...The one underlying theme that characterizes the Bible is Obedience. Jesus stated if you love me you will obey my commands. If people want to act like Jesus, one of the first things they can do is know the Old Testement. He did. God lays out his laws and decrees throughout. He has not rescinded any.<p>snl...I agree, so do most Christians. The problem (as you know) is interpreting/applying those rules. For example Thou shalt not kill. Pretty clear, and some Christians claim they would never do so, even to save their life, even to save the life of their child..... however, most agree that not killing is not an absolute, and killing can be done without sin depending on circumstance. The same difficulty can be applied to every rule, every admonition, simply cause we cannot know with absolute certainty God's will.<p>OK: We can and should know God's will. See Romans 12:1. Thou shalt not kill is more correct as "murder".<p>-----------------------------------<p>ok...When is someone saved? When they repent from their sinful ways and obey God.<p>snl...Not exactly, the only thing that saves you is believeing Jesus was the son of God, lived, and died to take away our sins, that's it. But it would be difficult to understand how someone could believe that, and still want to sin.<p>OK: Not exactly. Many believe in Jesus but have not made him Lord - See Matthew 7:21. "But only he who does the will of my Father.... (this also counters your argument above)<p>-----------------------------------------<p>ok...You can go to church every Sunday and spout the correct rhetoric, but if there is no change in your actions, then salvation is questionable. I did not say this, God did. Unfortunately, that is where many stand today, in their religious traditions. <p>snl..Exactly, and anyone who deals with marriage in a legalistic dutiful way is guilty of just what you say, it is no more exempt from this mindset than going to church and thinking you are saved by going through the motions. A marriage license, and vows do not make you married/oneflesh.<p>OK: Yes they do. The ceremony, which permits consummation, plus consummation makes you married/one flesh. No ceremony with consumation makes you a fornicator.
-------------------------------<p>ok...God's laws are simple and straightforward. He leaves no room for fudging. "Thou shalt not commit adultery". There it is in black and white.<p>snl...I agree.
-----------------------------<p>ok...I find it hard to believe that someone who calls themselves saved (Christian not being the same thing) would enter into the act. <p>snl....Me too. But ya know ok, you could say the same about sin in general, why does ok sin?<p>Ok: Once you receive salvation, sin becomes more abhorrent to you. We are not perfect, we still sin, but we cherish it less and less.
------------------------------------<p>ok...The act of adultery is not constrained to time. Adultery is a constant state until repentence. <p>snl...Hmm, I guess I am not real up on repentance, but it makes sense that if we know we are defying God's will, we have a problem, and need to deal with it.
-----------------------------------<p>ok...If couples married after engaging in adultery/infidelity, they are in a lost state and should separate as part of repentence. <p>snl...You cannot link adultery and infidelity, they are two different things, with different definitions and different consequences. I am not aware of a Scriptural definition for lost state, unless you mean we are all lost, cause none are sin free, nor ever will be sin free, that is why Jesus came to save us...right? But anyways your comment is just another way of saying whoever you "marry" (whatever that is, and many who marry are decidedly not spiritually married IMO), you are in a special state with until you die. I completely disagree with that, nor does the Bible say explicityly or implicitly that is so. <p>OK: Then you have to disagree with Jesus. He said what God has joined together, let man not separate.
The lost state - "For the wages of sin is death;;"
Romans 6:23 // "But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you so that he will not hear"Isaiah 59:2
---------------------------------------<p>ok...God will not bless what has been cursed from the beginning. <p>snl...If God is gonna curse something, I spect He will make it clear to the recipient, no one else can have the slightest idea the state of given individuals relationship with God.<p>OK: I think we can. We know there are lost people cause Christ gave us the great commission. We can determine who is lost and who is not. Paul even admonishes us to kick sinners out of the church.
-----------------------------------------<p>ok...If you can justify adultery, then Katie bar the door. <p>snl....I assume that was a generic statement, and I agree with it.<p>ok...One more "benefit" - God turns us over to our sinful ways when we constantly disobey him as we allow ourselves to sink lower and lower. That is called deluded. <p>snl...Then are we all deluded ok? Cause each and every human being constantly disobeys God's laws, including you....correct? But I agree, we should love God, and want to obey, and that truth is in our hearts.<p>OK: you statement is incorrect. The Word is spirit, truth, and life. In Proverbs, the two things we are told to get is wisdom and understanding. The Truth is the Word. If we don't know the Word, we don't know Truth. The Truth is always there, whether we recognize it or not.
--------------------------------------- <p>estes, as to the agree to disagee (keeping word)...let me ask you this....What does estes do when she pridefully gives her word, and circumstances arise that make it clear God wants something else...... does she pridefully ratioalize God's will away (or bury her head in the sand and ignore it), or does she realize one's word is always conditional, cause we are imperfect human beings.....therein lies the answer to pride. IMO re marital issues, those who say their motivation is just about vows, that nothing else matters, are guilty of pride, they keep their word for their own benefit. I personally would not want to be married to such a person, I do not want to be a project, or loved sacrificially.
--------------------------------------
SNL:A vow makes your spouse property, an object, and usurps God's will, which in our freewill we may have ignored, and did not marry in the manner God planned for us. If you blindly follow a vow, you may never hear what God has to say.<p>OK: That is your unsupported opinion. Show me the money.
----------------------------------------<p>I know this kind of thing is annoying and unsettleing, but it is inescapable. There is no Biblical basis for the position people take on vows, it is a prideful secular construct. The Bible tells us much about marriage, how it is supposed to look, feel, and so forth....it does not say it is an absolute, and vows are an absolute, therefore they mean very little about marriage itself, and are a human attempt to control our future. We cannot do that, the future is always in God's hands.<p>OK: Unsupported again regarding your view of marriage. God does hold the future, but he will not intervene in anything unless we ask him to. <p>meaningful Christmas, I like that, thank-you...wishing you the same, and to all the rest here who put up with me as well.<p>[ December 24, 2001: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</strong><hr></blockquote>