lim,<p>How was your Christmas? Much better than last year I'm sure. All in all, mine wasn't so bad, but I really missed my W's family.<p>Just a brief update. I went to see my lawyer on xmas eve and signed my response and my counter complaint. I was going to have it sent out today, but I called yesterday and put it on hold for a little while. If you have time, please look over my recent threads, especially the one to WAT. He offers an opposing viewpoint that I don't necessarily agree with, but it has some merit. I'd like your opinion. I've got a couple of weeks before I have to respond, and I think I'd like to talk to Steve Harley once more before I do.<p>Also, just something funny that happened xmas eve. My W called me about 10:30 from her sister's house (40 miles away) to tell me that the power steering went out on her car and to ask me what she should do. I was tempted to say it's not my problem, but I didn't. I told her to leave the car there, get a ride home from a relative and we could have it towed to a service station today. She could have figured that out herself, but who does she call when she has a problem? Me, of course. She still needs me.<p>When she got home, she asked if I would drive her to her other sister's house in the morning where her family was getting together. I didn't want to do that because I didn't want to see her family (it would just be too hard). In the morning I told her I would drop her off at another sister's house (she has 4) and she could get a ride with them. I didn't tell her why, but I think she knew I didn't want to see her family because it would be too hard. I think I handled it as best I could. I was barely out the door of my SIL's house when I started bawling, so I know I couldn't have handled seeing all of them.<p>Anyway, let me know what you think of WAT's reply. It didn't change my mind about what I have to do, but it made me think a little. Thanks!<p>sad dad

lim,<p>I just heard from WAT offsite, and I misconstrued what he meant. He agrees I should do this, but don't expect this alone to wake her up. I don't.<p>sad dad

bump

lim,<p>The paperwork has been filed. Now it's "wait and see". I was talking to my sister last night and she brought up some good points. She said my W's silence regarding the D my be on the advice of her lawyer. She also said once my W finds out that I counterfiled, he may also advise her not to discuss it with me, so I shouldn't be surprised if she doesn't mention it. Seems like it would be good advice.<p>On another note, my W's home from work this week. Yesterday she was waitng to get her car fixed. She called me 6 times at work, mostly for trivial things. It almost seems like she wants to talk to me, but won't just call to talk, she has to have some silly question or reason. It's very odd. You'd think she'd be avoiding me as much as possible. I can't figure her out.<p>sad dad

Hi SD- Sorry it took me so long to reply to you- my teen-age daughter (14) made my new computer crash by downloading something bad somewhere! I've only had my new Compaq a few months! She uses it constantly and it crashed on Dec. 24th and my H didnt call tech support till today to get it fixed. He ended up having to re-install EVERYTHING on it from software to internet to printer! Took him 3 hrs! Anyway I just read your post here and I urge you not to back down in any way. When I was counseling another poster on here- sadandconfused is his screen name he too was constantly asked by his wife for favors fixing the car,doing this and that etc and each time he would feel he should do it.( Like you and your W they had each filed for D and yet she had refused to completely end her A) When he finally STOPPED helping her she freaked out- it was soon after that that she finally ended her A for good. (something to think about) I know its habit and SEEMS like a good idea to help her but managing on her own is what SHE is asking for by filing for D on you against your will. I will post more to you tomorrow. Take care- lifeismessy

lim,<p>Sorry to hear about your computer. Funny how we get so dependent on them. <p>I talked to my BIL today. He told me that after my W called me on xmas eve to tell me about her car, my MIL told her she shouldn't have done that. She told my W that since this is what she wants, it's not fair to me for her to call me when something goes wrong. Way to go MIL! Anyway, we picked up her car yesterday after it was fixed. She was still having problems with it and called me 3 times today about it. That really pisses me off. She wants out, so why doesn't she let ME go? <p>One of the times she called me yesterday, she told me she was going to meet a girlfriend for lunch. She knew what street the restaurant was on, but wasn't sure if it was east or west of another street and called me to ask. This was 2 hours before she was supposed to leave to meet her. What did it matter? She would have found it eventually. It's like she wanted to talk to me and needed an excuse. A couple of her phone calls were for no real reason.<p>I understand what you mean about helping her, but I just think I should continue to plan A until we're not living together anymore. Am I handling this wrong?<p>I told my BIL that I counterfiled and explained that is was what I needed to do to get the truth and some peace of mind. He understood completely. This is my W's sister's husband and we're good friends, so I know I can trust him. His loyalty is to me. I told him that I was curious to see if my W mentions anything to her family about me counterfiling, especially his W since she is my W's closest sister. I asked him to call me in a couple of weeks to let me know one way or another. Her silence will speak volumes. Even if she doesn't say anything about it to me, I may bring it up. This will give me chance to reaffirm that I still love her, that don't want a D and that I still believe in our marriage, but that I need to do this to get the truth and some peace of mind. Whattya think? I think the subject needs to be addressed.<p>Also, when my W dropped my our daughter off at my sister's on xmas, our daughter was screaming hysterically. I felt awful, but it gave us a glimpse of things to come. My BIL told me that my daughter seemed to be in a daze all day on xmas. She probably knew something wasn't right (Daddy wasn't there). BIL asked my W how our daughter was handling all of this. My W said she's fine, but he said she wasn't from what he could see. He also said my MIL made the same observation. <p>Sorry for rambling, but I had alot to catch you up on. I look forward to hearing more from you tomorrow. Thanks!!!<p>sad dad<p>P.S. I'm sorry for calling on you for help so often. If I'm becoming a pain in the [censored], just let me know and I'll back off.<p>[ December 28, 2001: Message edited by: sad dad ]</p>

lim,<p>I was think some more about what you said about helping my W. I'm kind of torn up about it. I one hand, I like that she still turns to me first when she has a problem. I wonder if I should continue to be there for her so that when I go to plan B she'll be completely on her own. But I know that's not the purpose of plan B. On the other hand, it pisses me off. I'm thinking of telling her something like "I'm sorry you're having trouble with your car, but you want me out of your life and I think it's unfair that you turn to me when you have a problem. It makes me feel used". Maybe I shouldn't say anything, just stop being there for her.<p>sad dad

Hi SD- I read your last couple posts and your situation seems VERY similar to sadandconfused situation about 2 mo ago on here. His W also called him about car trouble, and called often to chit-chat even though she had filed for D on him and he had counter-filed. He kept doing Plan A and it led to nothing but frustration and more heartache as she waffled back and forth and kept going back to OM. Meanwhile he felt more and more used by her considering that SHE wanted the divorce and OM and wouldnt give up on either. It was only when he forced himself to emotionally detach enough to STOP getting her car fixed for her and REFUSING to talk to her as much as possible that she changed her behavior toward him and ended the A once and for all.He basically told her that divorce was wrong, he didnt agree with it but since she insisted on it it was up to her to solve her own problems, find someone to chit chat with etc. He was firm but polite and brief with her. It took a few weeks for that to really make an impression on her. They are now reconciling. But he spent months in emotional distress rescuing her and I think alot of that time was unnecessary pain.Remember that YOU count here too and I think she will admire you ( whether she admits to it of not) for taking a firmer stance with her. It might shake up her A with OM some more too.Make OM meet ALL her needs if he is so darn perfect right??? By all means use your BIL for info- I did that too and mine was very supportive and alot of help. Take care- lifeismessy

SD- I was at the library yesterday with my 3 kids and I re-checked out an excellent book I think could really help you. It is called The Passion Paradox by Dean C. Delis. It is about love and power patterns in intimate relationships. It is EXCELLENT at helping a person figure out how the power imbalance has occurred in their relationship and what to do about it. The psychologist who wrote it explains it all in a way that is easy to understand. Be sure to read it I think it could help you both now and in your future. I also wanted to tell you that I definitely dont mind helping you on these boards- I know the type of A our spouses got involved in are very similar so I thought I could hopefully give you some sound advice since I finally found my way out of my problems last year. When you are IN the midst of it all it is so hard to know what to do and take risks that could make things worse BELIEVE me I have been there!!!! Yet doing nothing and indecision doesnt help either. It seems like the WS has all the power and control in things and in a way it is true. However you still are having impact on them whether they admit it or not and starting to correct the power imbalance in your relationship can help improve your relationship with your spouse no matter if they have ended their A yet or not. Take care lifeismessy

lim,<p>Thanks for your reply. I agree with you 100%. I do feel used. We're supposed to take my W's car in after work on Wednesday to have more repairs done. I'm going to tell her what I said in an earlier post, "since you don't want me in your life anymore, I think it's unfair that you turn to me when you have a problem. I'd appreciate it if you'd find someone else to help you". It might piss her off, but will make it clear that since this is what she wants, she's on her own.<p>I read Bramblerose's post about "detataching with love". That's what I need to do. I'll continue to be kind, but focus all my emotional attention on myself and my daughter. Start acting as if she's no longer a part of my life. Right now I feel so detached from her that I'm much more concerned about the affect this will have on our daughter, losing her family and our house than I am about losing her. It's sad that it's gotten to thet point.<p>As far as the power imbalance, I think throughout our marriage, I always had the power. When a major decision had to be made, we would discuss it, but ultimately the final decision was mine. I think that's why she became so dependent on me when she had a problem, as she still is. This past year she's had all the power and control. Doing what I'm doing by counterfiling may help swing the power back somewhere toward the middle. <p>If the phone records my lawyer gets reveal what I suspect, I'll have undeniable proof that she's been lying to me for months. Whether or not I can prove adultery is not important. I'll have what I need to remove any lingering doubts and I'll be able to move on knowing everything I've suspected was true. She will probably still deny it to me, to her family and maybe to herself, but I'll know the truth. The direction she takes from there is up to her. I've got to tell you that I think she's so far gone, so far in denial and so proud, that even if she wanted to give our marriage a chance, she never will. It would require her to be too honest with herself and me to admit she was wrong. I just can't see that happening and that's really sad because we could have something so special.<p>sad dad

bump

lim,<p>How was your New Year's? Hope you did something fun. I went to dinner at some friend's house. We wound up drinking martinis all night (I'm a beer drinker usually, but it was a special occasion).
I had a great time and wound up spending the night. My W stayed home with our daughter. She went my her parent's yesterday and I went to watch football with the guys. When I got home I realized I had a bit much to drink and thought better of bringing up the "helping her out" issue.
I'll call her or email her at work about it today.
It should be an interesting week. Talk to you soon.<p>sad dad

lim,<p>I sent my W an email as I said I would. Her response was "That's fine, but you offered to take me to drop my car off. I'm sorry I bothered you". My reply was "I know I offered and I still intend to take you. The offer still stands". Her response was "No thanks". I could tell she was pissed, but I made my point.<p>sad dad

Hi SD= glad you summoned your courage up to let her know she cant expect you to go on doing favors for her if she wants to exclude you from her life. Standing up for yourself is important if you want to keep what little self-esteem you probably have left after enduring so much rejection from her. Believe me I have been THERE!!! My H and I went to a New Years Eve party across the street from our house and I felt sad there looking at so many happy couples that we know and then I looked out the window across the street and saw our large new 2 yr old home and thought how ever since we bought it his emotional affair had started right then and how sad it is that we were so excited to get our first NEW home in 15 yrs of moving around and how lots of the rooms in it are triggers for me because of his frequent "We need to talk' speeches that would make me cry and cry for hours. H didnt seem to notice how I was withdrawn at the party but we did talk about it on New Years Day. I told him the year 2001 was the worst year of my life. H is interviewing for a job that would require us to move again to another state- just as we did 2 years ago when we moved here to Ohio - his interview should be in a few wks. If he doesnt get it and we stay here I plan to apply right away for a part-time job to get me out of the house more. I need a change of scenery this year one way or the other.Plus our budget is tight so we really NEED the money. Let me know how the car saga turns out tonight. Limit your contact with your W to preserve your emotional strength. Has she mentioned anything about your selling the house again yet? When do you plan to list it? lifeismessy

lim,<p>I sorry to hear that those triggers still come up and bite you. Maybe moving will give you both a fresh start.<p>She hasn't mentioned anything about the house, or anything else divorce related either. I'm not going to bring it up until after I know she received my response & counter complaint. It was sent out last Thursday or Friday. I'm not sure how long that will take with the holiday and all.<p>sad dad

lim,<p>Someone took my W to drop off her car. She didn't say who & I didn't ask. I could tell she was pissed. She sorted my daughter's laundry and her own, but left mine in the hamper. I guess she's trying to teach me a lesson. I went to my Mom's for awhile. When I got home my daughter was in bed crying. My W said she was misbehaving so she sent her to bed early. I calmed her down and then just watched TV in bed. I avoided my W as much as possible. That's about it. No mention of selling the house or my counter filing. <p>sad dad

sd, I keep up with your stuff, and just want you to know (for whatever it is worth) that IMO you are pretty much following a good course. As you know I am particularly sensitive to people (especially men) who try to "manage" the recovery (and the ws), you seem to have a good (if sad) attitude, and a solid pragmatic behaviour (meaning you are not obsessed with this, just realize you can only do what you can do, and your life is not over if it does not work out). Too often I see between the words of some bs a tightly controlled anger, and it does not surprise me their spouse wandered, I don't see any of that in you. Your comment about making all the decisions previous to this was based on what? Were you aggressive? Or did your w simply just defer to you, and you did not realize the eventual consequences? You do not seem aggressive, and if not, you really did not have the power, she did, and she exercised it by making you responsible, that is different than you taking power....do you see? She also seems to be exercising power pretty well in the affair, she has been in control all along. IMO you are doing the right stuff, gradually setting boundaries, and not being at her beck and call, I wonder if part of her issues were you not being strong enough (this primal male/female stuff), she needed you to not let her give you control....I know that sounds confusing (even to me), but do you kinda get what I am talking about? Also people who are controlling, but let someone else make decisons, often subtley are dictating, did you make your decisions in large part how you thought your w would want you too? If so, that gives her the ability to not take responsibility (for a bad decision), yet still get what she wants. If any of this makes any sense, then starting to do what YOU want should have an impact on her, and the counter-filing was just that. You did it for YOU, cause was not in her best interest. Just be careful not to act aggressively just to prove a point, but do act in ways that make it clear you are a man, the "head" of the family, and will do what you have to do. The thing with the car was a good illustration. She seeks independence, she needs to act independent, and not rely on (control) you, by not being controllable you will become more attractive (again if this applies), long as you are still reasonable, and loving...plan a I guess.<p>You know my feelings about fitting and intimacy. I don't think it serves any purpose for folks to "make" each other stay together, it should be a freely made choice because both enthusiastically want to be intimate partners. Otherwise I think people should pull back, and be special friends (and good parents), as only ex-spouses who respect each other, and care, can be. You seem to be able to do that if it comes, and are just motivated by trying to make sure your marriage was given a fair chance, and for that I commend you. I hope your wife is the same, and your changes eventually motivate her to be honest with you, everyone (especially a bs) deserves that.

Hi SD- that's good that your W found someone else to take her to the car repair shop. Be sure to keep doing only the necessary things you must do and let your W handle her own 'stuff.' That includes her 'emotional stuff' that she will probably let loose with soon. Especially if she takes offense when she gets the counter-filing papers. DON"T let her drag you out into an emotional free-for-all then. Just repeat what I told you before- that you believe divorce is wrong, is harmful to your D and that you dont agree with it and wont discuss it further. I remember at this point in my ordeal my H telling me that 'divorce would be GOOD for the kids because it would harm the kids to live in a home with a loveless marriage." THAT was what OW told him to tell me. I told him, " The lack of love is all coming from YOUR direction, not mine." I then went on to tell him how friends of our kids HATE having to split their time between 2 different homes when their parents are divorced. It creates so much problems with sports, activities, playing with their friend times etc as well as the conflict between the ex-parents and step-parent stuff added in. There's no WAY that can benefit our 3 kids. Even he had to see that despite what bull OW was feeding him. Keep me posted on your situation. You are just about up to the part where the sh** hits the fan so to speak. Its hard I know! Stay tough! lifeismessy

snl,<p>First, it's good to see you're still around. Secondly, what are you doing online at 5AM?
Get a life (just kidding). I must admit, I was a little worried when I saw your name, but it was good to see that for the most part you think I'm handling this as well as can be expected.<p>"Your comment about making all the decisions previous to this was based on what? Were you aggressive? Or did your w simply just defer to you, and you did not realize the eventual consequences?"<p>I can't say I made all the decisions, but I generally had the final say on most of the major financial ones. I guess we both would say I had a better handle on what we could afford and things like that. Yes, I do think my W deferred to me. Also, I think I had more of an opinion on things that are usually "women's decisions" than most men (i.e. which couch is nicer, what colors would look better in the family room, etc.). <p>"She also seems to be exercising power pretty well in the affair, she has been in control all along. IMO you are doing the right stuff, gradually setting boundaries, and not being at her beck and call..."<p>I couldn't agree more.<p>"...then starting to do what YOU want should have an impact on her, and the counter-filing was just that. You did it for YOU, cause was not in her best interest. Just be careful not to act aggressively just to prove a point, but do act in ways that make it clear you are a man, the "head" of the family, and will do what you have to do."<p>Whether it is in her best interest isn't my call to make. But I do not feel D is in mine or my daughter's best interest. I can already begin to see signs from my daughter that this is affecting her. This will only become harder for her when she doesn't see each of us every day and is in a new home(s). <p>"The thing with the car was a good illustration. She seeks independence, she needs to act independent, and not rely on (control) you, by not being controllable you will become more attractive (again if this applies), long as you are still reasonable, and loving...plan a I guess."<p>I hope you're right. I felt I needed to take a stand regarding her reliance on me because it made me feel used under the circumstances. Would her anger towards me regarding this be because she sees she's losing "control" of me?<p>"You seem to be able to do that if it comes, and are just motivated by trying to make sure your marriage was given a fair chance, and for that I commend you. I hope your wife is the same, and your changes eventually motivate her to be honest with you, everyone (especially a bs) deserves that."<p>There have only really been two things I wanted throughout: <p>1. a fair, sincere chance for our marriage, without the influence of OM, so we don't have to look back a year or two from now and wonder "what if?"...<p>2. the truth, I can accept if my W wants OM over me, it's part of life; I just want her to be honest with me, as disheartening as that would be, I would respect her for it.<p>Thanks for your input.<p>sad dad

lim,<p>I'm think I'm prepared for whatever reaction I get from her re: counterfiling. I'll keep it short and to the point and not get into an emotional "toe-to-toe". As I mentioned to SNL, I can already see some affect this is having on our daughter, and for the most part her life hasn't changed, accept Mommy & Daddy don't do things together. <p>I know things are about to get rough, and I just hope I can maintain my composure. Thanks.<p>sad dad