lim,<p>Just got an email from my W. She wanted to know if I contacted a real estate appraiser and she wants me to come up with a list of things I want from the house. I suspect she got the news from her lawyer. My lawyer sent me a letter last Friday confirming that the paperwork has been filed and that a letter was sent to her lawyer first class on 12/27, so she should know by now.<p>You were right, the sh*t is going to start hitting the fan.<p>sad dad<p>[ January 03, 2002: Message edited by: sad dad ]</p>

lim,<p>I found out yesterday from my BIL that my W got the paperwork. She told her sister and was livid. She doesn't want any one in her family talking to me. I wonder why? Is she affraid they might learn my reasons for doing this? <p>When my W got home from work she barely said two words to me. I went out to dinner with my sisters.
When I got home we watched TV together for about an hour, I thought it would give her a chance to bring it up if she wanted to. She just layed down and tried to go to sleep. I was going to bring it up, but figured I'd give it a day or so to sink in. She doesn't know that I know yet. That's about it. Should be a fun weekend.<p>sad dad

Hi SD! Oh that was a GOOD idea you had to go out to dinner with your sisters after you found out from BIL that she was livid after getting the papers.When in doubt- go OUT! If I were you I would wait until SHE brings it up before getting into it. After all its HER actions that led to your actions- one thing leads to another.I cant stress to you enough right now that you need to be your OWN best friend right now and let her deal with her stuff herself. Make some wkend plans for yourself that you can do without her. DON't get into it with her until she has time to think it all thru and think about HER part of what led to this. Her anger will be something for OM to deal with. lifeismessy

sd...I found out yesterday from my BIL that my W got the paperwork. She told her sister and was livid. <p>snl...Well if you weren't sure before, you are now she was having a full blown affair. If she wasn't she would have jumped on you with both feet, not expressed anger to others.<p>sd...She doesn't want any one in her family talking to me. I wonder why? <p>snl...My first guess would be cause they know stuff you don't. My second guess would be cause she intends to exert pressure on you to retract this, and isolation is one of the psychological tools to exert pressure. The more I hear about your life the more I am thinking your wife is the controller, she acts like one. She is consistently completely insensitive to your needs/feelings etc, and always focused on herself. Controllers come in lots of flavors (re behaviour, and is gender related), but that psychology is consistent.<p>sd....Is she affraid they might learn my reasons for doing this?<p>snl...They don't know? Ok, yeah, that would be quite likely, her pristine reputation is about to be shattered, and if she enjoys and values that she would be angry (ain't consequences a pain in the butt). Plus if they are reasonably moral ethical people she knows what she is in store for, and what the om is in store for when she brings him around. <p>sd...figured I'd give it a day or so to sink in. She doesn't know that I know yet. <p>snl....Why bring it up? She has pretty much made it clear where she is going with all this, let the lawyers deal with it, and/or let her come to you with it.<p>wife, I don't know how all this is going to turn out, and it scares and worries be alot for our daughter. When lawyers have to solve the problems people should resolve themselves, it can get very contentious even when people don't want it too. Our legal system is adversarial, has to be I guess, but I don't like it. Just want you to know before goes any farther I don't want to fight with you, I just want what's best for our daughter and the truth. The truth sets us all free, and good or bad, all can heal and go on with life. But secrets make poor foundations, they suck the life out of you even when you don't realize it. If you are afraid the truth will give me ammunition to use, I promise not to. I will let you go, other than cooperating on parenting our precious daughter, I will amicably let you go to the destiny you seek, but I cannot do that right without the truth.<p>or something like that may be useful if you talk, I would not talk much about the legal details, just say it is all up to lawyer, he is the professional, you are paying him good money, and will do what he advises. I assume she is really worried about depositions, as well she should. Everyone your wife knows, and the om knows, will be deposed (if lawyer is doing his job), and they will be in a quandary...do they lie for her, and risk perjury charges, or do they tell the truth and infuriate your wife.... it could be very very ugly (depending on how aggressive your lawyer is). At the very least everyone will know (by the questions) your wife had an affair, no matter how much she protests....and most will assume it was PA as well. Plus your wife will worry, no one is perfect and she knows there are smoking guns out there somewhere, the most interesting deposition if all will be the om, will he lie, or tell the truth...who knows...I wonder if she has even told him what he is up against, and is worried he will run when he finds out (or out her). It could get very rough around the sd household, you should prepare for that, also your wife may use your daughter as a weapon, you need to consider all the ways she could do that, and be prepared....you may decide this is all not worth it if you get the custody considerations you want.

lim,<p>I guess I'll just play it by ear for now, at least thru the weekend. I've got to help my sister take down xmas decorations some time this weekend and my W has a bachelorette party tomorrow night. I'll just try to keep busy.
She seems to be in turmoil. I guess that's good.
I'll let you know how it goes.<p>Thanks!<p>sad dad

snl,<p>Pretty solid advice and synopsis of the situation. I guess her reaction spoke volumes.<p>She comes from a very moral and ethical family. They are the most wonderful, family-oriented people I've ever known. This goes against everything she was brought up to believe. That is why she has denied it to them at every turn, probably to herself also.<p>I'll just keep quiet about this for now. If she brings it up I'll handle it in the most non-LB, non-confrontational way. I just hope she finds a way to be honest with me about this. I really don't want to go thru all the legal BS and create wounds that may never heal. I just want the truth.
Thanks.<p>sad dad

Dear sad dad,
I hope you don't mind me jumping in to add my 2 cents to your exchange with lifeismessy--whose opinions I also admire greatly...<p>It's interesting to me how users always say "YOU OFFERED." I think it is their way of absolving themselves of any responsibility for their manipulative, controlling behavior, not to mention their self-centeredness.<p>I'm not trying to badmouth your wife, but I have a dear loved one and have had lots of "friends" who suck you into all their drama until you feel so sorry that you have to help. Then when you feel all used up and can't take anymore, they throw that "YOU OFFERED" crap at you to excuse themselves for BOTHERING you. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Sorry, I have run out of patience for these types. You give and you give and you give and it's like dropping your investment into a big, black hole.<p>Just wondering (you don't have to answer cuz I think I already know the answer--I could be wrong), but how many times of the 6 x's that your wife phoned you at your office did she ask YOU how YOUR day was going or show an interest in your life or THANK you for being there for her? I just wonder...<p>If users would take one ounce of time to show appreciation or interest instead of being all self-absorbed in their miserable situation with NO SOLUTIONS, then I feel it would make all the difference.<p>WS aside, I think the user mentality is another type of fog all its own. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Oh well. Guess this turned into a vent, ey?<p>I just wanted to say that it's sad that your wife can't just come out and say that she needs you and always will need you, that she appreciates you and all your help and intelligence. It's too bad she can't just come out and admit that she is scared and just hopes that you won't mind being there for her even if things don't work out and for your daughter's sake.<p>But for her to just assume these things and just plow over your feelings and good nature, taking your kindness for weakness, there is no excuse. I'm on your side with closing the door on all the taking advantage that has been going on.<p>To me, this is no different than male WS's who keep their OW and continue to get SF need met with their BS's. Just awful!<p>Your WS has disqualified herself to receive EN of Domestic Support met by you. Sorry.

btdt,<p>Thanks for chiming in. Opinions are always welcome. Good point about her "you offered" defense. To answer your question, she never asked how I was doing or how my day was, but I'm sure you knew that. I did offer to help. She's my W, I care about her and she knows she could always depend on me.<p>What really bothered me was the phone call on xmas eve. I'm sitting home alone, away from the two most important people in my life and her family who I adore, and she calls me when she has a problem with her car. After I hang up, I wonder if she gave me a second thought all night until she had a problem. Then the next day, on xmas, she wants me to drive her to her sisters' house where her whole family would be so I can help carry presents in, see them all and then turn around and leave. Did she ever think how difficult that would be for me? It hurt like hell.<p>As far as offering domestic support, I don't do that to fill an EN. That's just the way I am. I don't believe that cooking, cleaning, grocery shopping, child rearing, etc. are women's responsibilities. They should be shared equally. To me that's only right.<p>lim,<p>My W left a message on our answering machine asking me not to feed our daughter because she was taking her out to dinner. She came home, changed and came downstairs with a bag that we use for our daughter's PJ's and stuff. I asked her about it and she said she was going to her girlfriend's after dinner. This girlfriend was one of the people my W was talking to often when I was using the telephone recorder 8 months ago. She's well aware of everything. In fact, the M.O. is the same. The night my W found out about the recorder (she snooped in my email, what comes around goes around), she immediatly when to her house. It wasn't until 3 days later that she mentioned it to me. She needed time and an ally to help her come up with a story. Anyway, I'm glad she left because I wasn't looking forward to sitting around with her all night. She seems to be scrambling. If she wasn't doing anything wrong, she'd have nothing to worry about. Look forward to hearing from you.<p>sad dad

lim,<p>Day three, nothing new to report. I went to breakfast with my sisters and my mother. Spent the afternoon exchanging xmas presents and grocery shopping with my daughter. Took my daughter by my Mom's tonight, my W went to a bachelorette party. W was pretty quiet all day.
I followed your advice and just kept busy all day. I've got plans tomorrow. The ball's in her court, I'll just lay low. I still have the urge to bring it up or give her a note explaining my position. I can't help but feel that my reason for doing this needs to be addressed. I want her to know that I haven't done this out of spite or vengence. Whattya think?<p>sad dad

SD-I understand completely how much you want to bring it up and get her to to address things with you. However I really think if she DOES she will explode and it will lead into a huge LB session for both of you. You have stated your position to her about WHY you are doing the legal stuff you are doing. You need for her to reflect on those words rather than allowing an all out LB session now that would cause her to RUN RUN RUN to her friends and OM to tell them, "See how my H is !" Believe me, as long as your W is still talking to OM you are NOT in recovery. And since you are not, you need to stay calm and focused and have a plan which you do.By the time you get into the start of recovery which can only happen when your W cuts off ALL contact with OM, there will be plenty of fights ahead of you where you can get all your feelings out. Our counselor said in affairs like these- a minimum year of counseling at least is needed. I believe it as we are still going and I am approaching d-day on valentines day and H and I STILL have it out over the affair every few wks. However I am going to start trying harder this year not to bring it up as I am working thru my anger at him eventually. Take care and keep busy- lifeismessy PS we have a hamster on the loose here- my 4 yr old didnt shut the cage door right on my 10 yr old dd's new hamster cage- so "cinnamon' is on the loose now and we cant find him! We've only had him 3 days! Wish us luck today- the good news is at least we dont have a CAT- but we do have a big 2 story house to search thru!!!!!

lim,<p>Sorry to hear about the hamster. Hey, if you had a cat, he could help you find the hamster (dead or alive, however!).

"You have stated your position to her about WHY you are doing the legal stuff you are doing."<p>I haven't stated my position about why I'm doing this, that's why I thought a note. I could say what I need to say, without being sucked into a discussion neither of us wants or is ready to have. Maybe something short and sweet like:<p>"I can tell by your behavior the past few days that you must have gotten my response from your lawyer. I want you to know that I love you and in spite of everything that's happened this past year, I still believe in our mariage and I don't want a D. I don't believe it solves our problems and will only create new ones for both of us and <daughter>, and it will tear her world apart. I don't want to see that happen. But whatever happens between us, I need to know the truth for my own peace of mind, and this was the only option I have." <p>or something like that. <p>"You need for her to reflect on those words rather than allowing an all out LB session now that would cause her to RUN RUN RUN to her friends and OM to tell them, "See how my H is !" <p>She has no "words" reflect on yet since I haven't told her why I'm doing this. I have no desire at this time to discuss what I know, what my lawyer is planning to do, how I feel, etc. I just want to state my reasons for doing this and put the ball in her court.<p>Let me know what you think, but I think I have to state my reasons for doing this so she's clear about them and doesn't think I'm just being vindictive or vengeful.<p>Good luck with the hamster. You better find it or else the smell will be awful.<p>sad dad

Hi SD- Well after searching for hours last night I figured the hamster had a REALLY good hiding spot- all 5 of us looked with flashlights for 3 hrs. Luckily this morning my H got up at 5AM to go into work to finish an important project and he flipped on the light downstairs and there was Cinnamon behind the couch! He put it upstairs in my dd's room and she was THRILLED when she woke up! YAY! About your plans of what to say to your W, that sounds really good. I thought you had told her that already. Go ahead and try to find a calm time to tell her that and hopefully it wont lead into a huge LB session. Take care- lifeismessy

lim,<p>I'm glad you found the hamster. I'm sure the kids were happy.<p>A bit of an update. There was a letter that I wrote my W six months ago or so. Basically it just said that I was taking responsibility for my contributions to the problems in our marriage, namely my temper and critisism, and that I was aware of other problems in our marriage that needed to be fixed. That letter has been sitting on my W's dresser ever since, but I noticed today it was gone. I'm sure my W plans on giving it to her lawyer to substantiate her claims of mental cruelty. I guess this can be perceived as her way of deflecting any blame on herself, and may just show how desperate she is to prove that I'm the bad guy, maybe trying to beat me to the punch, so to speak. Seems like she's scrambling to avoid the truth. What do you think of this? <p>Anyway, should I tell my W my reasons, or put it in a letter to avoid a possible confrontation? I leaning towards a letter, stating what I said earlier, just so I get it right and don't get sidetracked:<p>"I can tell by your behavior the past few days that you must have gotten my response from your lawyer. I want you to know that in spite of everything that's happened this past year, I love you, I still believe in our mariage and I don't want a D. I don't believe it solves our problems and will only create new ones for both of us and for <daughter>, and it will tear her world apart. I don't want to see that happen. However, regardless of what happens between us, I need to know the truth for my own peace of mind, and this was the only option I have. <p>All I've wanted since this whole ordeal started was a sincere chance to save our marriage without the influence of a third party, or at the very least the truth. I've gotten neither. I've held myself accountable for my contributions to our problems, I hope you will do the same." <p>I added that last part to hopefully let her know subliminally that I know about the letter, kinda taking the wind out of her sails. Let me know if I should change anything or if you think I should talk to her about it instead of putting it in a letter. Does it sound like I'm apologizing for what I'm doing?<p>sad dad<p>[ January 07, 2002: Message edited by: sad dad ]<p>[ January 07, 2002: Message edited by: sad dad ]<p>[ January 07, 2002: Message edited by: sad dad ]</p>

SD- I think your letter is very well written. If you feel more comfortable writing to her rather than telling it to her go for it. I don't think your letter sounds like you are apoligizing too much. Whether your W will admit it or not- all marriages have faults on either side. I liked what you wrote about being accountable. That was really good. I never did write a letter- I told my H verbally why I was opposed to divorce- he brought it up to me at least 5-6 times over a several months period of time. I told him the same things as you are- plus I added that my not agreeing to a dissolution divorce was due to my moral and spiritual beliefs that our marriage can be saved and my total opposition to ruining our kids lives by subjecting them to 2 separate homes.I made it fully clear to him that I did not have 3 children with him with ANY future plans to raise them with step-parents, custody confusion, fights, etc. I emphasized that I would NOT be counter-filing as revenge on him or to drag things out or make it more expensive, but rather that I had to live by my moral and spiritual beliefs in order to have peace of mind in the long run. Just remember- regardless of what you write- your W is not likely to admit her faults to you until she has gone thru withdrawal from OM- and that would be probably be several months past final contact with OM. So realize that no matter WHAT you write or say it wont likely sink in to her in a significant way until she has ended her A. lifeismessy PS Cinnamon is napping in her cage now and the kids are going back to school today YAY!

SD- I wanted to add some encouragement to you too. I realize how unsure you must feel some days about your applying the tough love parts to the Harley ideas. I felt the same way at this point in my ordeal. I often cried for hours and some days felt like 'caving' in and not being firm with H. We went out to dinner last wk and I asked him what made him change his mind about divorce when he seemed so set for it at the time- he said it was MY refusing to say our marriage couldnt be saved and my steadfast resolve that we could make things BETTER with counseling and hard work. At the time though- it hardly seemed like ANYTHING I was saying to him was sinking in.In fact he seemed to see me as the'enemy' at the time and was very emotionally dependent on OW. I hope this is encouraging to you.One way or the other- you wont be in this level of deep emotional pain and despair indefinitely. lim

lim,<p>Thanks for the encouragement. I know what I'm doing is right and I have no expectations of anything changing soon. In fact, I really doubt they ever will. She has lied to me and everyone else for so long, that even if she ever wanted reconcile, I doubt she could muster up the strength and courage to face truth, me and her family. She would have to eat too much crow, so to speak. I guess that was a disrespectful judgement, that's just how I feel right now.<p>It must be nice to have the house to yourself for a few hours. Enjoy it until 3:00 (or whatever time the kiddies get home). Thanks!<p>sad dad<p>[ January 07, 2002: Message edited by: sad dad ]</p>

bump

lim,<p>How's Cinnamon doing after his little excursion?
The good thing about pets like hamsters, goldfish, turtles, etc is that they all look and behave alike, so they can be easily replaced. I have a 100lb yellow lab that my daughter just loves and has a personality all his own. My daughter (and I) would be lost without him. There'll probably be a custody battle over him too.<p>Anyway, I tweaked my letter a bit and left it next to my W's purse this morning. She has junior acheivement with OM tonight, so I thought it would give her something to think about. I made it clear how I feel about D and that I'm doing what I am because I need to know the truth no metter what happens. I don't expect her to mention it and I have no desire to talk about it. Now I'm just going to go about my business and leave her alone to deal with her own stuff. <p>sad dad

Hi SD- Cinnamon is resting happily curled in a ball in his neon green plastic cage in dd's room now. We have a lovebird too named after Tony Bennett- BIL raises exotic birds and insisted we take one home a few years ago! At least he didnt stick us with one of his parrots that live 100+ years!!! We had a yellow lab 3 yrs ago- got it as a pup and had it 18 mo but I think it was a bad one- it flunked obedience school, ate our redwood deck, dug up our rosebushes, stripped the bark off our trees, dug up sprinkler heads, knocked over our glass patio table which broke- then ate the patio umbrella!We often had to have her x-rayed to see what was stuck in her stomach. I bought her huge chewie bones but that only satisfied her for 5 minutes. She even ate the siding off our house and the insulation and wiring on our new air conditioning unit. Inside the house we had to keep her crated or else she ate all our toddler's toys. We lasted 18 mo with her before I found out that labs have very extended puppyhoods and then I put an ad for her in the paper. We had to pull the blinds on our backyard in order not to discourage potential buyers! Luckily we found some outdoor folks with no young kids who wanted her! ANYWAY!!!!! I wanted to ask you - how many people know about your wife's A now? How many of your relatives? Her relatives? Co-workers? Neighbors? Does she care if they know or does it upset her? Have you asked your attorney if you are in a state which allows suing OM for alienation of affection? I know people who have done that and gotten a money settlement and scared the wits out of the OP. It rattles their fantasy cage believe me. lifeismessy

lim,<p>I've talked to my sister's and several friends about the A, as well as my BIL's and one conversation with her father months ago. She doesn't know I talked to my BIL's (maybe one), but I'm sure she knows I've talked to my sisters and my closer friends. Her sister and mother have both asked her about it, as has my one friend's W who she is very close with. Denied it to all. I'm sure her two best friends know all about it. She really has no idea who I have and haven't talked to about this. <p>I've heard about alienation of affection laws, but that sounds like sour grapes to me. I just want my lawyer to get the info she can from phone records, and I'll decide from there who far I want to take this.<p>sad dad<p>[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: sad dad ]</p>