I've been getting a lot of advice here from all sorts of people. The advice is contradictory many times. At the end of all of the posts to me in the description of yourselves most of you are either separated, divorced or about to be divorced. Is this plan working for anybody? Not to be rude, but I don't want to know how each of you failed. I want to know how somebody succeeded. Where are the happy endings.<p>My wife told me yesterday that she is ready to end her relationship with the om. She said she is ready to really work on us. My family thinks she is dragging me along until om can get here. He will not have an opportunity to transfer here until next summer when he would be taking my job if he came. She can't support herself without my income. I don't know if she is being honest or not. She kept her feelings hid for 3 1/2 years already and has lied constantly since I discovered the affair. <p>I know they have made plans for him to come here and start a life together. I read it in a letter from him that she didn't know I read. She denies they ever made plans even now. I know he has come here while I was working the 3rd shift-I work the shift every 5 weeks. I don't know how often. She will not deny that he's been here but won't admit it either or how many times. She simply will not tell the truth. How can I believe she really wants to work on us and end all contact with om when she isn't willing to be honest about other things?<p>Please if anybody out there has succeeded in winning back their spouse please let me know how and what worked.<p>I have a lot of other recent posts if you need more background to help. Take a look.<p>Thanks

Hi Sad Dad ~<p>I guess you could call me a success. But let me tell you, I hate the term "winning". I refused to be in competition with the OW. I was his wife, and I never felt that it was a contest to see who won. In fact, when I moved to Plan D - I very clearly told my H that I was filing because I refused to be married while he disrespected me with his relationship with OW. I wasn't going to stick around and hope that he picked me.<p>I didn't win my H back. He made a choice to come home - and in doing so, choose to take steps to make sure that he was accountable for his time and money and that his affair was finished. A no contact letter was written and I was given access to all of his email and voicemail.<p>What affected his decision? My Plan A, pressure from his own family, and his own conscience.<p>He felt terrible guilt for what he was doing to our children. And I was pregnant, and he desperately did not want to be apart from his new baby daughter. <p>His family told him that they loved him no matter what, but that he was never ever to let the OW darken their door step. They told him that I was a daughter to them, and they would never disrespect the mother of their grand children by accepting a woman that helped destroy our family.<p>This pressure from his family caused problems with him and his OW. She wanted to be included and introduced and "legitimized". And he couldn't and wouldn't and she LB'd big time over it.<p>Finally, my Plan A convinced my H that I was truely willing to change (and had changed) and that I would take his needs and feelings seriously. <p>I think my biggest fault was disrespectful judgements. Focusing on eradicating that from my personality was a huge factor.

Jerrod - some of the marriages here are saved, but not all by any means. One of the traps is to think that if you simply follow the right plan, she'll come back. Your wife has to make that choice on her own, but if she's been lying for 3+ years, then she's already far down the road.<p>If you've identified things in your own behavior that might have contributed to the situation, try to change those on a consistent and believable basis. That's all you can do. Maybe she ends up not coming back, and you have to start over. In that case you know that you did your best, and you are better prepared to start over with someone else.<p>Sorry, I haven't read your other posts, but I don't think the details matter for this question. If somebody tells you about some tactics that "worked", it worked only because their spouse was willing to be honest and work on their marriage, too. That's the key element, a decision from the wayward spouse. Without that, nothing works to save the marriage.<p>I believe plan A and B can only facilitate or allow this decision from the wayward spouse, not force it. The focus of your effort has to be on you, not her.<p>Good luck,<p>Tom

Jerrod - it looks like BrambleRose was writing the same time I was. But look what she said: <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I didn't win my H back. He made a choice to come home <hr></blockquote>
and
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Finally, my Plan A convinced my H that I was truely willing to change (and had changed) and that I would take his needs and feelings seriously.<hr></blockquote>

Saddad<p>Yes, there are many success stories. It's just that many times those folks have now moved on and no longer come to the BB.<p>The following is a link to success stories from another website. The techniques are very similiar to MB. Just wanted you to be able to read the success stories.<p>Believe, Saddad.<p>http://66.111.66.234/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=forum&f=51

Sad Dad,<p>My H (STL) and I are one of the many success stories here. But many of the people who were successful don't post here often.<p>STL and I found the SAA book within two weeks of d-day. We both read the book and started Plan A'ing each other immediately. We talked about it and that was our plan. We are still plan A'ing each other 9 months later and plan to do this for our life time. From our experience, it works best when both parties are dedicated to recoverying the marriage.<p>I did not have to deal with STL continuing his affairs after d-day. They stopped as soon as I discovered the first one. If he had not done that, I do not believe we would be together today. The multiple affair thing (no emotional attachment) is a much different issue then what you are dealing with.

saddad,
I don't know if you would call us a succes story cause my H found out in June and Sept. But we are still going on strong in our M. <p>IMO you should tell her that you know and you want her to tell you all. Tell her that if she wants to make it work that there can't be any secreats between you two.<p>My H did that, and it made me think that I if I really wanted him then I had to come forth with everything. Of course it took me awhile. My H also said that he wanted to love me for who I am not for what I wanted him to belive I was. (hope that made since).<p>Tell her that you know of the letters but you want her to confess it all.<p>My H found this site and talked me into looking at it. I can say as a WS that it just as helpfully for us as it is for BS. Maybe you can tell her how you feel,saying gosh I don't know if you want to really work on our M, will you help stop feeling this way?<p>You can plan A her by taking her out like once a week for dinner, movie etc. <p>Good luck. Sherry

<p>[ January 20, 2002: Message edited by: MMMMM ]</p>

saddad,<p>There has been a very happy ending to my situation even though we did not start off with MB principles. We discovered MB about 2 months after the fact when we went into counseling. <p>When I found out about my H's internet EA, I was done. That was it for me. We had been married for only 4 months and that was a deal breaker for me. I couldn't imagine living with a man with a low character. It never crossed my mind to try and save the marriage. Until he begged me to change my mind and give him a chance. <p>I decided to let him stay for a little bit and just go through the motions of counseling so I could SAY I had tried and then give him the bum's rush with a perfectly clear conscience. I even told the counselor on the phone that my intention was to dump this loser. Well, here I am a year later and after applying MB principles to our M for year, I have to say, that it is better than I could have ever dreamt of. The love and passion has been restored to my marriage. I am really glad I stuck it out.

I would like to know if any relationships have ever turned around without the betrayed spouse either throwing the WS out or actually filing for divorce.<p>In other words, does anything but the most extreme measures ever really work?<p>I have yet to hear of one time where the BS just started a great Plan A and the WS turned around from this alone. But I hear story after story where the BS finally had enough and threw in the towel, intending to move on without the cheater, and bingo! NOW the WS wants to come back and fix things.<p>I'm listening......
psycho_b***h

saddad & psycho_b <p>I would consider my husband & I succeeding everyday. There was two d-days with the same OW. I have been on this forum since March 2000. The last d-day was in my own home, very long story. But we are doing really so much better then I thought we ever could. But marriage is a continued work of love. Something I used to think would just be there. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Neither husband or myself never really left home, but I did leave for a few days to clear my head the last d-day. My husband did think I was done with the marriage, until I told him we never really had a chance to rebuild, and I still loved him and wanted our marriage. The affair he had last about one year. Withdrawal both times was very hard for both. <p>The affair was ending for him on his own. That is something the WS spouse must do for themselves, it can't be forced. <p>Plan "A" is for the BS to improve themselves, not to improve only to "win" the WS back. It must be a improvement for you, and it will show what kind of person you are to the WS. <p>I am very blessed because of many on this board that have helped me through some very rough dips in the rollercoaster. <p>best of luck,<p>bighope

saddad,<p>there are lots of success stories but like some others have told you old timers tend not to check in as much & as someone else said check the recovery board.<p>even though my marriage was not restored I am a sucess story. I am getting happier every day. I know that I did most everything I could do try & rebuild my marriage. My STBX choose to throw 20 yrs away and damage our children, that is his choice not mine.<p>Would I be as at peace today without MB, I doubt it. For over 2 yrs this board & DR H's bks helped through the worst months of my life. But they gave me strenght, and their were people here who read my tears in the darkest months.<p>So even though GQ2 is very dark and gloomy lots of the time, I think most people who come here are helped even if their marriages end.<p>wishing you peace & joy in 2002

saddad,<p>I am not sure that I would ever call myself the winner in this situation. My H too chose to come back home. As soon as I found out *for sure* that he was indeed having an EMR, it was Plan B - but I did one thing: I messed up and did a quasi-plan B with some contact. Didn't work. So went to Plan A. That was the worst - the more understanding and nicer I was, the more cruel my H was to me. He was still in contact with XOW then, and I'm sure he had a lot of disgust for me, hanging onto the marriage with a third party involved.<p>Once I found out - AGAIN - it was Plan B, period. Only it was a Plan B in the true sense of the word. I started moving on, mentally, emotionally, financially, making back-up plans, etc. As soon as H figured out that he was really, truly in the process of being dumped, he too came running back. I can't tell you how many times I had to hang up on him when he called, crying about "us." The more distant I became, the more he seemed to want me. Whatever.<p>I've really never gotten to the point where I trust him. There are issues. There were too many lies and plots and planning against my back. Then there was the lovely tome that could rival the first draft of War and Peace that the XOW sent me. <p>So ... in all honesty, I can say the only thing that worked for me was when I really moved on in my Plan B. Everything else was a failure. Especially counseling. Counseling with a third party involved is utterly pointless, and I do not recommend that anyone try it.<p>belld

saddad,<p>This is the "other" sad dad. I have to agree with belldandy about counseling when there is OP involved. It's a waste of time. My W and I tried counseling prior to learning about OM. All she did was beat me up and it served no purpose. She wasn't there to work on our marriage, simply to justify what she was doing by making me out to be Attila the Hun.<p>There are sucess stories, but as others have said, I think alot of those people don't post here anymore. They probably just want to put their terrible ordeals behind them and enjoy their marriages without reliving the past. However, there are some who still post here so did give up hope. <p>the original "sad dad"

Dear Saddad:<p>Yes, my marriage has recovered from my H's affair. We are now 26 months into recovery.<p>For me, I did not find this website until approximately 5 months after d-day. Most people would say that, in the first five months following discovery, I did everything wrong. However, I did what my instincts told me to do at the time...and, I am not sorry for how I reacted.<p>I did not PLAN A (didn't even know what it was!!!) , nor did I have to PLAN B. I did "PLAN MARIE"-- which was to set firm boundaries that I NEEDED in order for me to stay in the marriage.<p>I insisted on NO CONTACT from the beginning. I requested change in all phone numbers, e-mail accts, calls letting me know when he was leaving office for the day, etc. And, YES, at first my H resisted...but, slowly and surely, H came around.<p>All of this did not happen immediately...it kind of evolved over a 4-6 month period of time. From everything I've read, it's "normal" for some sort of contact to continue after the immediate discovery of the affair. For us, my H continued contact with OW for approx. 1 month following d-day-- I didn't find out about all this until approx. 2 months after original d-day.<p>My H and his OW also had plans to hook back up...they planned on "cooling it" for 6 months while me and OW's H "got off their backs". I found out about this plan through discovered e-mails. Yes, it can be VERY DISHEARTENING. Unfortunately, I really couldn't do anything except hope for the best while waiting for that "six month marker" to come and go.<p>After almost continual lovebusting during the initial month following d-day, I fell into a deep, deep depression. I stayed in my deep depression for about 6 months. I literally did nothing for my H or the kids (luckily I have teens who are self-sufficient). Prior to my H's affair, I considered myself to be a "top notch" wife and mother...I had pretty much PLANNED A throughout my entire marriage. My H's A caught me totally off guard and almost destroyed me. I went from coddling my H to doing absolutely NOTHING FOR HIM-- and I mean NOTHING...no cooking, no cleaning, no ironing, no feeding the pets, no helping kids with anything, etc. I do remember being intimate with him during this time frame...but I was present in body only-- my mind was totally gone. When I look back at that period in my life, I was a total zombie...<p>Somewhere during that time, my H "grew up" and got himself together. He DID NOT contact OW at the 6 month point (as they had planned). OW did contact him-- which he immediately told me about-- and which we handled together. We have not heard from her since.<p>I still keep "tabs" on my H to this very day. He still gives me his weekly schedule. He still calls me when leaving the office for the evening. He still calls at least 2x during the day to "check in" with me. He continues to give me his voice mail and e-mail passwords-- which I still check every so often.<p>Marriagebuilders came into "play" for us at approximately 1 year after d-day. We both really started taking all of Harley's PLAN FOR MARITAL RECOVERY "to heart"-- we began following all the RULES.<p>This past year (which was the second year of RECOVERY for us) was so MUCH BETTER than that first year following d-day. And, I expect this third year to be even better.<p>We both have become stronger, wiser, and more "in tune" with each other since this whole ordeal unfolded. I hope that my story gives you some peace.<p>My advice to you is to do what you need to do to protect yourself and your children...hopefully, the rest will naturally fall into place.<p>Peace, ~Marie

Dear saddad,<p>I would consider our marriage restoration a "success story". We have been restored for over 2 years and our marriage is far better than it ever was. We did go through counseling with the Harleys and applied their principles, along with a LOT of prayer. <p>Please don't give up hope. God can heal your marriage.

sd, a curious question, since people regularly post here about improved marriages, I wonder why you ask? The question is a little ambiguous cause people have different standards, and different expectations of what marriage is for them, I also think it is somewhat age related. You have to be sure exactly what it is you want, need, expect from marriage to assess others success. From what I have observed the majority of restored marriages are cause the op didn't work out, so they settle for who they were with, especially if the bs makes a better deal for them....but it also seems sometimes it is cause the bs will put up with an inferior mate, so the mate takes advantage of this (and the bs enables them), until the next episode. Yet some call this recovery. If you mean by success that 2 people fall passionately in-love with each other, and live happily ever after....I see very little as well. But that is to be expected, an affair pretty much exposes the level of fit in a given couple (regardless of the reasons), and that cannot really be changed. The vast majority of marriages are accomodations of one sort or another, and people stay in them out of fear of change, or losing what they have and not doing as well elsewhere, or guilt and aversion to social disapproval, very human stuff....and the "success" is not much more than an attitude adjustment, and a decision to just live with what you have. If one can do that hat trick, you will be happier, cause the stress is removed, you focus on whatever needs the spouse can and will meet, and accept that as enough. So maybe first sd, you need to look inside yourself, and define what "success" means to you, and go for it..... and if the om was not a good fit for w, and she figures that out, she will probably give you another look, especially if you change enough (assuming you want to change, you should only change for you, not a spouse list for you). Only you can decide to what degree you want to settle, or be settled for, and whether that is successful enough for you....or what degree of passion and fit you think is needed and decide whether your w meets those standards.

S_N_L,
"As Usual" we are at odds over these points!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>From what I have observed the majority of restored marriages are cause the op didn't work out, so they settle for who they were with</strong><hr></blockquote>
I guess THAT'S THE POINT!!! WS's come to realize that "the grass ain't necessarily greener..." - so, YES! they SETTLE. They "settle" for a happy, contented, secure, loving, loyal, (maybe even) BORING M!! Is that so bad?!?!?!
The "OP didn't work out..." DUH!?!?!?! THAT IS THE POINT!!!! The OP doesn't have what it takes to make anyone happy.....no one does - your happiness is within YOU. Your choice of mate has far less to do with it than your OWN actions and reactions to them. The reason OP "doesn't work out" is b/c it isn't ABOUT FINDING YOUR FIT. It's about finding YOUR OWN happiness, and making your S.O. happy, by acting in an appropriate manner. The way you AGREED to do (in your M vows - here we go again!) [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>If you mean by success that 2 people fall passionately in-love with each other, and live happily ever after....I see very little as well<hr></blockquote></strong>
What is meant by "success" is that two people "fall BACK in love" and live reasonably happy together. There IS NO "happily ever after..." - it's a FAIRY TALE!! THAT's what I think the whole A business is about, and why they fail....WS's look for "happily ever after..." only to be let down by NEW A partner too! THEN they wake up and realize the grass in the NEW yard needs tending, too, or it will whither and die just like at home.<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>The "success" is not much more than an attitude adjustment, and a decision to just live with what you have.<hr></blockquote></strong>
And this is a bad thing because.....??? And no, not JUST LIVE WITH WHAT YOU HAVE, but improve it so that you are both happier with what you have, meeting each others' needs.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong> Only you can decide to what degree you want to settle, or be settled for, and whether that is successful enough for you....or what degree of passion and fit you think is needed and decide whether your w meets those standards.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Now HERE's something you have said that I can agree with! But where you STOP here, I carry it farther and say that with proper communication tools/learned skills, ANY TWO PEOPLE can learn to meet each others' needs reasonably well to take them into a happy M.<p>You're getting there, S_N_L!! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I hope you are doing well in your own personal search, my friend. I know these things don't come to you easily. I know you are struggling and searching to find your "fit" in the universe.<p>God Bless,
Lupo<p>[ December 29, 2001: Message edited by: lupolady ]</p>

Lupo...S_N_L From what I have observed the majority of restored marriages are cause the op didn't work out, so they settle for who they were with.<p>lupo...I guess THAT'S THE POINT!!! WS's come to realize that "the grass ain't necessarily greener..." - so, YES! they SETTLE. They "settle" for a happy, contented, secure, loving, loyal, (maybe even) BORING M!! Is that so bad?!?!?!<p>snl....So bad? That is the question isn't it, it always comes back to this, where do you draw the line..... but IMO one should first (and most do not) do the hard hard work of self-introspection to find out, for them, what criteria are they using to draw the line, and is it the criteria they want to live their life with, or the criteria handed to them by parents, society, their own genes, whatever.<p>lupo...The "OP didn't work out..." DUH!?!?!?! THAT IS THE POINT!!!! The OP doesn't have what it takes to make anyone happy.....no one does - your happiness is within YOU. <p>snl...By now lupo you know I disagree with this. You should be happy with WHO you are, that does not imply you should be happy with your circumstances. Have you ever quit a job you did not like, did not fullfill you, whatever? If so, why, why did you just not decide to be happy there? You cannot make that argument lupo, it is not how humans function, nor should they, it is just another form of denial.<p>lupo...Your choice of mate has far less to do with it than your OWN actions and reactions to them. The reason OP "doesn't work out" is b/c it isn't ABOUT FINDING YOUR FIT. It's about finding YOUR OWN happiness, and making your S.O. happy, by acting in an appropriate manner. The way you AGREED to do (in your M vows - here we go again!)<p>snl...Not much to say here, I don't think human psychology works that way. I don't (nor do harleys) all people fit the same way, and I do think we are happier and healthier in intimate relationships with people we fit well psychologically. You know very well in your own life you like some people far more than others...why? <p>(snl) If you mean by success that 2 people fall passionately in-love with each other, and live happily ever after....I see very little as well<p>lupo...What is meant by "success" is that two people "fall BACK in love" and live reasonably happy together. <p>snl....Indeed, reasonable (no lb'ing, some level of meeting en's etc.) is one type of success. One can do that with a brother, or sister too, or a good friend....what makes the difference? If you are only comfortable with someone, is that sucess? It could be, others want a much deeper connection, one that cannot happen with just anyone, if if could, it would make no difference who we married....surely you do not believe that?<p>lupo...There IS NO "happily ever after..." - it's a FAIRY TALE!! THAT's what I think the whole A business is about, and why they fail....WS's look for "happily ever after..." only to be let down by NEW A partner too! THEN they wake up and realize the grass in the NEW yard needs tending, too, or it will whither and die just like at home.<p>snl...Come on lupo, tired old hyperbole, and tired old imagery. Yes some people wander from a good spouse (meaning could be passionate, safe, nurturing) but many don't, they wander from marriages that will not work, not cause anyone is evil, just do not fit very well, stress each other etc. Is the nature of life, and the inevitable consequence of the poor job we do in mate selection. I really do not understanb this almost manic focus on saving marriages, if all love is is applying MB stuff, then divorce makes no difference, the two spouses will just marry someone else, apply the principles, and everyone will live happily ever after, what difference does it make if all it is is a decision? Why all this agony and such, as a bs can't you just pick someone else, do the MB stuff, and be in-love, and by decideing happiness is within, won't you always be happy? If this is all there is lupo, why do you care what your H does, really makes no difference (not tryinmg to be insensitive, if I am plz forgive me, this is the stuff I struggle with). <p>(snl..)The "success" is not much more than an attitude adjustment, and a decision to just live with what you have.<p>lupo...And this is a bad thing because.....??? And no, not JUST LIVE WITH WHAT YOU HAVE, but improve it so that you are both happier with what you have, meeting each others' needs.<p>snl....The answer for this would take pages and pages lupo, it is the eseence of being human, when to "settle" and when to dream, the risks, the rewards....all of that, and much more. Sometimes settling is the right choice in life, sometimes it is not.<p>(snl)...Only you can decide to what degree you want to settle, or be settled for, and whether that is successful enough for you....or what degree of passion and fit you think is needed and decide whether your w meets those standards.<p>lupo...Now HERE's something you have said that I can agree with! But where you STOP here, I carry it farther and say that with proper communication tools/learned skills, ANY TWO PEOPLE can learn to meet each others' needs reasonably well to take them into a happy M.
You're getting there, S_N_L!! <p>snl...And that is what scares the heck out of me. That one should give up passion for reasonably well, it feels a little like death to me. But in fact, that is probably what we really all do anyways, the argument is more about where each of us draws the line, and the saddness when two people marry without realizing they draw the line in very different places. <p>lupo...I hope you are doing well in your own personal search, my friend. I know these things don't come to you easily. I know you are struggling and searching to find your "fit" in the universe.<p>snl...Oh, I don't know lupo, it is up and down, and it is hard....but I feel um..... this phase is coming to an end, I feel I have done due diligence re marriage, bonding, myself, my wife, my marriage, and all that. The big spikes of emotion and terror are pretty much gone, I really do think time is vital for everyone in this kind of stuff, just ride the coaster, it will level out some. It is very important IMO people treat each other with some level of respect, caring, honesty and such, and if 2 people can do that I think it helps at least the fundamental healing. Thinker is very angry at me again, she does not understand or approve my need to do this kind of search, she takes it as a personal affront, then wonders why I feel she doesn't really see me, or understand me, just wants the marriage, cause it is the one she is in. The pattern is clear, she will be nice to me if I behave as she wants me to, if not, I am of no value, and only worthy of being critized, judged, and found unworthy. This is what I meant about (elsewhere) people not really changing.....this has been the pattern of our lives, it still is, I just understand it better now I think. I am who I am, she is who she is, I do not meet her needs the way she needs them met, nor she mine, and that just seems to be the way it is. The only difference is she gets really angry, and seems to have a need to be the victim, and me the mean old whatever. Now of course I have given her the ultimate weapon, I am a fallen person, I cannot defend myself, and she has the moral highground, and reminds me of this regularly.

Well, anyone would get angry or mad! SNL why don't you tell them how you got angry at me on the phone while you were in the hospital. He wanted me to lie big time about something at the hospital and I said I can't. I felt his physical body was better in the hospital. His voice got angry, he ended with do what you have to in an angry voice and hung up on me! Talk about angry, SNL does a lot, but won't mention to you all that he is failing here too. Of course he will tell you all about my failures, but to mention his own failures, NO!!! He wants to present himself as the one doing all perfectly and working hard at this marriage. Why did Jennifer Harley finally tell us she can't help us anymore and gave us to Steve Harley to counsel with? Jennifer told me, looks like a bad outcome, H is not willing to follow the MB path, only his path, which no one really knows what that path is. Steve told me to give it a little time, and then separate or divorce. Success with SNL will never happen, wish he would be open and honest with everyone here, as well as me his wife. I know he does not want the marriage, but he is a too afraid to say it. So he is miserable here, therefore, I get sadder by the day and finally it comes to why be here. I think this is what SNL wants, me to make the big plunge, cause he is too afraid. He knows in his heart what he wants to do. Then quit being a chicken and DO IT!!!!!!