Hey, BR,
I have read your recovery story with much interest, since timelines are similar. I have some questions, which I hope you will indulge me in answering!<p>In your sig line, you state that you were separated for 18 months? Was that a total, physical separation? Did he talk of D? What, in your estimation, brought your H "around?" Was it just the "natural death of the a" in itself, or something YOU were doing, or he was doing or OW was doing?<p>You made the following comment on another thread I was reading: This will make you a more independent, less clingy, needy person - and more attractive to boot!
I would like to have you elaborate on this somewhat...see my WH sees me as very independent, even makes mention of it when I try to get his help on some situations....his standard answer is, "You can handle it." And then, of course, I HAVE TO. It doesn't help that he lives 200 miles away w/OW and could not easily come here to help w/most stuff. It DOES have to be worked out another way.<p>BUT is he making this statement to ease his OWN conscience, or does he really believe that? And if he does, then WHY would I want to "appear more independent and strong"? WOuldn't that just make him MORE sure I *don't need him* and SHE does???<p>I know you don't know me, and you don't know him, and can't really answer this, but do you understand what I'm asking? Where is the "fine line" between "clingy and needy" and self-assured and independent that our WS's want us to walk?<p>TIA,
God Bless,
Lupo

And while you are on that subject, while reading HNHN, I have been thinking that there is a "need" left out, and that is, the EN of "being needed." For my WH, that EN is very strong. He has even commented that one of the reasons he fell in love with me is that I needed him, and that he liked knowing that he made a difference in my life, and that he resented me getting so "independent." <p>One of the reasons that I think he is with OW at this point is she NEEDS him, and that is intoxicating. I did NEED my H, I just wasn't very good at showing my appreciation when he came through. So now, one of the things that I have as part of my Plan A, is showing my husband that I do need him, and that trying to be independent and make it on my own with three kids is not where I want to be. I want our family back. <p>To digress, I don't understand how he can stack up the needs of me and his three kids, against one OW. OW = no job, no money, no home, (soon) no kid responsibilities. She lost her job over A, is now in process of giving up custody of her children to her STBX, who she left over the affair, so she can move here to be with my H. She has no where to live since her sister, who also left her husband, has decided to try and reconcile with her H. Now my H feels so NEEDED and GUILTY if he would leave her. <p>Any suggestions on including showing someone you NEED them during Plan A. <p>I know that in the best marriages, interdependence is the ideal state. But with the fear, for now anyway, looming over my head, that even if we try to work things out, that it may not work, doesn't that kind of scare a person not to become to dependent on someone again.<p>[ December 31, 2001: Message edited by: isitpossible ]</p>

Bumping this up....<p>Need more input.<p>^

I am interested in the subject of independance? I have only two letters that my WH ever wrote to me and they are 13 years apart and they both mention how he couldn't do his job if I wasn't as independent as I was.<p>My thought.... was I to strong, did he not see that I needed him? WH said that OW had personal problems that he was helping her to work thru them... she needed him more then I did!<p>Dawn<p>
HAPP NEW YEAR TO ALL!!!

Hi Lupolady ~<p>I've been a busy busy chick today, coding and designing the letters right off my keyboard...and I haven't been on the boards today - I'm sorry I'm so slow to respond!<p>I don't mind answering questions! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>In your sig line, you state that you were separated for 18 months? Was that a total, physical separation? Did he talk of D? What, in your estimation, brought your H "around?" Was it just the "natural death of the a" in itself, or something YOU were doing, or he was doing or OW was doing?<hr></blockquote><p>Yes, 18 months physical separation. My H's A start in Nov 99 as an EA, which escalated our already very very serious marital problems into a complete total breakdown. I asked him to move out in February 2000 (I didn't know that his OW - which I wasn't sure about, well I was naive and in denial) was helping him find an apartment, and pulling on him where I was pushing.<p>The plan was 2 months separation. For the first month, he'd go to personal counseling. In the second month, after he'd gotten his personal stuff started, we'd start marriage counseling. Then if all was well...he'd move back home.<p>Well well well. Shortly after he moved out...he told me that there was nothing wrong with him (he was and still is an active alcholic) except me and that now that he was free he was happy. Our marriage was OVER and he didn't need counseling and marriage counseling was a complete no go. What I didn't know was that his EA had gone PA.<p>So what brought him around? A combination of factors.<p>2 weeks after he moved out, with him standing over me in the bathroom...I took a pregnancy test and came up positive. Talk about a complete and utter shock.<p>Just as a side note...at the highest point in his A...he accused me first of getting pregnant on purpose (not surprising) but then later told me that I had stolen the urine of my pregant SIL who was staying with me and used sleight of hand to pour it on the tester with him watching...I hate the term fog, most of the time I see it used very disrespectfully, but this was a case of complete and utter ALIEN MOOSEWORM BRAINED FOG.<p>But...I digress. My H looooooooooooooooves babies, and was a fantastic father with both of our boys as infants. And it wasn't too far along in my pregnancy (20 weeks) when I found out it was a girl. Yep, our boys were 7 and 9, and this was the girl we hadn't even ever imagined we'd have...<p>But anyway, that alone would not have healed our marriage. His A continued fast and furious through my pregnancy.<p>Both the end of his affair, my plan A, AND our impending divorce factored into his coming home...along with our beautiful baby daughter.<p>If you ask him what the biggest factor was, he'll tell you it was the kids...and it was my changes.<p>BUT - I don't know if my Plan A would have been enough without the end of his affair.<p>My Plan A saved ME. <p>That's my long winded answer. Plan A saved ME. It made me emotionally independent and therefore a appealing option when my H began to realize that his fantasy woman was a regular human being with regular warts after all.<p>You see...I'm a purebred co-dependent. BOTH of my grandfathers were raging alcoholics. And while there was no drinking in my childhood home...ALL of the emotional and spiritual dysfunction was there. So marrying an alcoholic was pretty much destiny for me.<p>I was completely emotionally dependent on my H. At first, when we were young, I think it made him feel good about himself. The whole white knight thing...he was my larger than life hero ... I replace God with my husband.<p>Whatever my H thought about me, or whatever he felt about me...was the God's honest bible truth. He was the source of my happiness, my self-esteem and my life.<p>Needless to say, I spent 10 years of marriage miserable because he wasn't living up to my expectations of God.<p>But this kind of sick dependency (which is NOT love) also becomes pretty suffocating...and is also completely unattractive. I didn't have a clue what *I* thought, what *I* felt, what *I* needed. My H was the focus of my every waking thought and moment. I was a doormat in every sense of the word.<p>So...the A started...but my marriage and unhappiness had already gotten so bad that I had sought help in Al-Anon. So thank goodness I had support when he left. I learned from my sponsor how to be independent. I started learning how to set boundaries...but I wasn't good at it. At this point my H was still home...and I was acting like the independent controlling queen *****. I didn't need him for ANYTHING.<p>But guess what?<p>My H needs to be needed. Mostly this translates into the fact that he needs to be admired and that his primary love language (from Chapman) is acts of service. When I became "independent" of him...I didn't need his love. Now, I've always been financially dependent on him...but he didn't feel that I appreciated what he did for me financially. And when I no longer danced the alcoholic co-dependent dance...he was definetely left feeling betrayed.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
BUT is he making this statement to ease his OWN conscience, or does he really believe that? And if he does, then WHY would I want to "appear more independent and strong"? WOuldn't that just make him MORE sure I *don't need him* and SHE does???
<hr></blockquote><p>Maybe your H feels that OW needs him and you don't, especially if you are 'independent'. In my situation...<p>My H found someone who admired and appreciated and needed him when he no longer perceived that I needed him.<p>One email that I saw between him and his OW (late in their relationship) was where he told her that all he was doing was waiting for her to lower her pride and admit that she needed his help.<p>My H needs to feel useful. He needs to feel that he is successfully providing assistance (financially and emotionally) to his loved ones.<p>I've learned how to meet my own needs instead of selfishly demanding that he meet them. We are working our recovery from the MB's plan, we've had counseling with Steve H...but more importantly...I've learned not to base my self esteem on my H. I've learned how to care for myself..how to love myself..and how to show myself respect...and even more...BELIEVE that I deserve it...even if he doesn't think so or say so.<p>But at the same time, rather than being "independent"...I've learned how to express my thanks at EVERY thing he does for me. One of my biggest complaints was that he barely ever lifted a finger outside of his job. Well...when I learned to start saying thank you for everything, and I mean EVERYTHING...and telling him how much I appreciated his thinking of me and doing for me...he started looking for things to do for me. If I want something done...I've learned that I have to keep my mouth shut after the first request...and thank him when it gets done...AND...not insist that he do it my way.<p>So basically...while I was divorcing him - because I had become emotionally independent enough to stand on my own and not be scared...I also learned to appreciate and thank my H. When he did ANYTHING, I thank him and told him I appreciated it. When he came over and we talked about his job, I firmly supported, admired and appreciated him. I told him how much I appreciated those things that he did for us.<p>He just desperately wanted to know that his work, day in and day out, was wanted, needed and appreciated. <p>In addition to my lack of apprecition and admiration...I also am the QUEEN of disrespectful judgements. When I stopped beign "right' and let him be him, and just accepted...he was sooooooooooo relieved.<p>My Plan A gave him the encouragement and the hope that he needed to choose to try again when his A ended quite naturally.<p>
So...when his A (round #2 with her) was falling apart...our first court date loomed.<p>He jumped off the fence, and came home. <p>So...I'm not sure if I have a clear answer for you. It was a mixture of stuff.<p>What I had really been talking about was specifically the situation where one spouse is so emotionally needy that they fall into what I call the "doormat appeasement" trap of Plan A.<p>In this case the BS is usually begging, pleading and desperate cause they can not imagine ever being happy ever again and feel that their lives are destroyed forever because of the actions of the WS. <p>This isn't what attracted our spouses in the first place. Can you imagine..on a first date...pleading and begging and saying "I'll do whatever it takes...just ask me out again!!"<p>No, back then, we knew how to be content in our own skins and how to love ourselves. (And if we didn't...like me....we were very emotionally sick).<p>And that's what the BS has to find again. Find that happiness comes from within, and is not based on the actions of another person.<p>Easy to say....hard as hell to practice...but that's when my H got reinterested...when I learned how to be happy by myself and when I learned how to LIVE.<p>But it wasn't enough just to make myself happy. I had to learn how to appropriately need him and then express that need and gratitude.<p>Perhaps the end of his affair was facilitated by the fact that he was having an EA/PA with his own wife!! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <giggling><p>I do know that shortly after he moved home...he mentioned that his OW used to insist that he not spend the night on "his" weekends with the kids (which he did). She told him it was cheating! <smirk><p>Anyway...geez...I know this is a long long answer...and I went all over the map with it...but your question deserved a thorough answer and I don't think there is any way of just producing the "magic formula" that fixed my marriage.<p>I just had to really really grow as me...I had to look inside myself with firm resolve and decide to be a person that *I* liked...and that...I do believe...in the end...made the biggest difference<p>[ January 01, 2002: Message edited by: BrambleRose ]</p>

You say that your husband was and still is an active alcholic. How does that still affect your relationship NOW? your respect for him?<p>[ January 01, 2002: Message edited by: Susan ]</p>

yeah I was wondering the same thing BR. Why be married to an alcoholic at all, by some standards they are incapable of marriage, having chosen the bottle as their primary focus. Just a side note, my dad was an alcoholic, my mom through him out at a young age (me).... he went on to marry and has been married 40 years (he married someone that also drank a fair amount, but she could control herself, and had a career as a teacher). I think early on they probably got on ok, he can be a likable guy and all that, but is an awful drunk...he managed to stay employed in airlines most of his life, but as he got older, he could not juggle the drinking and working, and started experienceing the medical issues as well. The last 10-15 years (their retirement) has been hell for my step-mom, he is totally consumed by the alcohol is a useless grandfather, and a depressing meanspirited (often) man. I wonder if this is what you have to look forward to, whether it happens or not it is a huge risk, why do you take it? It seems to me your H has cleaned up his act just enough to get you to stay and take care of him, is that love? Is that enough for you? Or are you afraid maybe could not find (or deserve) a man who would choose you over the bottle?<p>btw IMO he never loved anyone, I am his oldest child, have a full brother and he had 2 more with her (my half sister pretty much hates him, he was a lousy father). I pity him, and knowing his childhood (very rough) one can be sympathetic, but in the end he chose his life, he is not stupid, and he just did what he wanted to do. Including toeing the line awhile whenever his w threatened to divorce him. He neglected his first family (me and brother), didn't do much better with his second, and his wife of 40 years is just waiting for him to die (he is pretty sick) so she can get out from all the abuse. It is easy to get caught up in feeling sorry for the poor suffering alcoholic, even to try and make it a for better or worse issue, but I don't think an alcoholic deserves to have a spouse or family, they need to earn it, just like everyone else. They need tough love, you choose...me or the bottle, and no second chances (after the first dozen or so).<p>[ January 01, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

<p>[ January 20, 2002: Message edited by: Bunny ]</p>

Hi, BR,
Not exactly sure WHAT "coding and designing the letters off my keyboard..." is, but thanks for responding to my post! As you can see, it's generated a whole lot of interest.<p>I'll go through this with the stuff that jumped out at me quoted, if that's ok...
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
Maybe your H feels that OW needs him and you don't, especially if you are 'independent'....
My H found someone who admired and appreciated and needed him when he no longer perceived that I needed him.<hr></blockquote>
This is *exactly* my point! He DOES feel this way, I'm sure. His comments to me whenever I have a problem tell me this. I had a major problem lately a - um, er - "critter problem" and called him one particular morning when I couldn't find anyone immediately to help. Keep in mind that he's 200 miles away!! Not much he could do from there, for sure, but I was soooo freaked out....anyway, when he finally called me back 3 hours later, I kinda whined about the problem, although I apologized for calling him, that I realized there really wasn't much he could do from so far away - I wasn't trying to make him feel guilty, I just had freaked out....he said, "Hmmm, I wonder why they keep coming..." like he cared. I DID have someone there by then who did handle it, and told him so, so then said, "I know, you just wanted someone to talk to....but see, you can handle it." That hurt. Duh. Like I had a choice?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I've learned not to base my self esteem on my H. <hr></blockquote>
I don't think I ever did this. If anything, I was too extreme the OTHER way....like he felt it wasn't important to me if he was here or not. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>But at the same time, rather than being "independent"...I've learned how to express my thanks at EVERY thing he does for me.<hr></blockquote>
THIS - and the sentences following this, I WILL remember for our recovery!!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>So basically...while I was divorcing him - because I had become emotionally independent enough to stand on my own and not be scared...I also learned to appreciate and thank my H. When he did ANYTHING<hr></blockquote>
Can you elaborate on this? What do you mean, "...while I was divorcing him..." He was still around? Is this the difference? My WH is 200 miles away, doesn't WANT to see me, or be around me, and probably figures we NEVER have to see each other again, except in court, to sign "papers."<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>In addition to my lack of apprecition and admiration...I also am the QUEEN of disrespectful judgements. When I stopped beign "right' and let him be him, and just accepted...he was sooooooooooo relieved.<hr></blockquote>
Oooh, boy. Can I relate to this! My bad. Very bad.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>My Plan A gave him the encouragement and the hope that he needed to choose to try again when his A ended quite naturally.<hr></blockquote>
OK, it has been tough to do (only b/c of physical distance), but I feel I'm doing a FLAWLESS Plan A!!!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>No, back then, we knew how to be content in our own skins and how to love ourselves. <hr></blockquote>
I think this IS what the "original" attraction to me was, way back when......I guess I was so unhappy in my - our - situation, our M. here lately that I had become - as you said, "The queen of disrespectful judgements" - basically LB City.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I had to learn how to appropriately need him and then express that need and gratitude.
<hr></blockquote>
This seems to be the "bottom line" answer to my question, then, doesn't it?<p>Thanks, BR!!!<p>Lupo

^^ bump ^^
still curious about the answer to my question...

Gosh I've been really busy and I'm not ignoring this thread at all - I'm just swamped in my coding project and I've got a sick baby.<p>Anyway, Susan ~<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>You say that your husband was and still is an active alcholic. How does that still affect your relationship NOW? your respect for him?<hr></blockquote><p>I don't know really how to answer this question. My H is an extremely high functioning alcholic in the sense that I've never had to deal with drunken rages and violence and passing out and throwing up and blackouts and DUIs and all that stuff.<p>My H is usually quite happy to sit at his desk at home with a bottle by his side, every day. He rarely gets noticably drunk. He holds down a job and is careerwise very successful.<p>But the emotional and spiritual dysfunctions of the disease are very present - and I do believe contributed to our extremely dysfunctional marriage.<p>I believe he's an alcoholic. He says he isn't. I simply leave the issue alone. He knows how I feel and where I stand with it. He actually has a good friend who is involved with an extremely bad alcoholic girlfriend, so we've had a chance to have alot of talks about alcoholism without it having to be about him. Anyway, I can do nothing but leave it up to my H to find his own answers. My answers don't work for him.<p>I simply live one day at a time. For today, he is doing what I need him to do. For today he is actively participating in our marriage and it's better now than its ever been.<p>But in the back of my mind is always the concern that his disease is a ticking time bomb.<p>SNL ~<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Why be married to an alcoholic at all, by some standards they are incapable of marriage, having chosen the bottle as their primary focus.<hr></blockquote><p>That's a great question SNL. And truely, if I was ever looking for a spouse ever again...I would be running away from any man at the first hint of alcoholism.<p>But SNL, I didn't know what alcoholism was until I had been married for 8 years and had 2 children. I didn't know that my H had a problem with alcohol .... I was messed up enough in my own head that what normal people would have seen as red flags were perfectly normal to me.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I wonder if this is what you have to look forward to, whether it happens or not it is a huge risk, why do you take it? It seems to me your H has cleaned up his act just enough to get you to stay and take care of him, is that love? Is that enough for you? Or are you afraid maybe could not find (or deserve) a man who would choose you over the bottle?<hr></blockquote><p>Yes, that may be what I have to look forward to. This is a progressive disease that always gets worse if left untreated.<p>My recovering alcholic sister said to me that she feels that my H is probably bargaining with his disease right now...that if he straightens the rest of his life out and gets it right, then he can continue to drink.<p>I don't know what's truely going on in his heart. I am simply taking him one day at a time, and going by his actions.<p>No I'm not afraid that I can't find or deserve someone better. The second time I went for my divorce (with Steve Harley's recommendation) I was very much at peace. I wasn't afraid to be alone and I wasn't worried that no one else would find me lovable. God gave me so many people to love and support me through everything...that I couldn't believe anything else...that I would be just fine on my own.<p>So why did I stay?<p>Because I choose to. Because I made 3 children with this man, and because I made vows and because for today, it is the best situation for me and my kids. I may not have understood what I was signing on for when I made my vows...but *I* made them, no one made me take that risk. There was a point where I had to decide as a person and a mother than my H's presence in our home was more destructive than helpful - and that's when I asked him to leave. <p>I have no problem with drawing a line when things get out of control.<p>I more than earned my right to a divorce. And I'm not staying out of fear and I'm not living with my mind focused on the future. I'm living in the today, and as a parent and a person, this is where I need to be.<p>If you want, you can take a look at the thread I started over on D/D when I made my decision to stop the divorce:<p>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=34&t=003476<p>And I want you to know that 6 months later, I am actually getting far more out of the relationship with my H than I thought possible then.<p>My H is truely trying very hard and has done far more than I thought I'd ever see him do.

Hi mylife ~<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>If you went to Plan B - would that have doomed your changes with your H? My H's famiy is saddened by his actions and he hides the details of the A from them because he knows how much they love me, but yet they are letting him live with them while the clock ticks away for the separation period leading for divorce, and plus they are all on their second marriages too.<hr></blockquote><p>
Actually I did Plan B twice....no, it didn't doom anything. Plan B was a big wake up call to my H.<p>I plan B'd him the first time when I discovered after the baby was born that he'd lied to me about his company Christmas party. We'd be talking about reconciling and he'd taken a brand new job as a Vice President at this company, and told me that the party was employee only. Unfortunately for him, one of his new co-workers called my home number looking for his OW the next day, wanting to return some items she'd left behind...<p>I was totally humiliated and embarrassed, feeling that if he was introducing HER to his new company and not me, that I just couldn't do it anymore.
So I cut contact with him, and used his family as a go between. It only lasted a day. (Silly me). He stormed my answering machine with "I love you" and "I love the kids" and "I'll do whatever it takes to fix us". Thinking that this was recovery at last, we started counseling with the Harleys the next day. <p>That lasted all of 2 months. Then I discovered that he was still dating - not his OW - but he was running personal ads and meeting women that way. He got caught red-handed when his cell phone accidently dialed mine and left a recording of him driving a woman home at 1am. Steve Harley said that its one of the most common ways that a WS gets caught! <p>Anyway, I did a Plan B letter again. This lasted one week - with my H trying every day to get past my boundaries. <p>Finally, he drove to the house, and as soon as I answered the door, put his arms around me and said: You win, NOW I want to try.<p>Steve Harley said: He's appeasing you and doesn't get it. Go to Plan B and divorce him.<p>So then I did do the divorce route, but opted for a plan A, not with an eye to reconcile, but with an eye for a cooperative relationship regarding the kids.<p>When I told him I wanted a divorce again (this was divorce #2) he went running back to OW.<p>I simply let go, set boundaries about certain things with the kids, and got on with my life.<p>It wasn't until our first court date was imminent that he decided to actually put action, real action, behind his words. And when that happened, it was totally amazing the change in my H.<p>No more attitude. No more lies, no more "get over it" and "maybe" I'll think about doing what I should... There was real willingness to do what Steve Harley had told him to do months before.<p>And thats how it has been for 6 months.<p>So no, Plan B didn't drive him away. But I didn't do Plan B with any motivation about outcomes other than my OWN sanity. It wasn't about forcing him to stop doing anything.<p>It was simply about making sure that I was no longer exposed to the craziness.<p>So if you do a plan B, do it for you, not for your H or your marriage.<p>If your marriage has a chance...Plan B will not ruin it. Instead, if you've done a good Plan A..then Plan B can be a wake up call to the WS. But you can't go into it with the expectation of anything on the part of the WS. You just do it for you.

oh I should stress that - if you are going to Plan B, you have to be very clear that divorce is very much a possiblity as an outcome.<p>But if that's the case...I do believe that continued plan A instead isn't going to stop a divorce...it just prolongs the emotional agony for everyone involved.

lupolady ~<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>This is *exactly* my point! He DOES feel this way, I'm sure. His comments to me whenever I have a problem tell me this. I had a major problem lately a - um, er - "critter problem" and called him one particular morning when I couldn't find anyone immediately to help. Keep in mind that he's 200 miles away!! Not much he could do from there, for sure, but I was soooo freaked out....anyway, when he finally called me back 3 hours later, I kinda whined about the problem, although I apologized for calling him, that I realized there really wasn't much he could do from so far away - I wasn't trying to make him feel guilty, I just had freaked out....he said, "Hmmm, I wonder why they keep coming..." like he cared. I DID have someone there by then who did handle it, and told him so, so then said, "I know, you just wanted someone to talk to....but see, you can handle it." That hurt. Duh. Like I had a choice?<hr></blockquote><p>Hmmm, 2 things strike me here. 1. Do you think he might have been hurt too? I don't know your H...but I wonder if he felt that your phone call, when there really was nothing he could do, was simply rubbing it in his face that you don't need him. If he is truely feeling unneeded and unappreciated...a phone call like that probably just reminded him of his failures...<p>On the other hand...2. He may just be appeasing his own guilt. He was feeling guilty for abandoning you - and telling himself and you that he wasn't really shirking his responsibilities because you are a capable person...<p>I don't know...but it sounds like it could be a bit of both....<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Can you elaborate on this? What do you mean, "...while I was divorcing him..." He was still around? Is this the difference? My WH is 200 miles away, doesn't WANT to see me, or be around me, and probably figures we NEVER have to see each other again, except in court, to sign "papers."<hr></blockquote><p>Sorry for the confusion. Yes, I made the decision to divorce him - twice actually. We had quite a couple of false starts at recovery. He was still around - living 45 minutes away. I know that the OW was begging him constantly to move in with her...but he never did. We had to have contact because of my very complicated pregnancy and the birth of our daughter and because of our other 2 kids. Also his family put ALOT of pressure on him.<p>My H didn't want to see me at first either...he was very angry at me for asking him to move out (well duh, he was having an affair). There were a couple of things that happened that his OW had him convinced was malicious on my part also. One was my pregnacy (I tried to trap him!) and the other was a phone call made anonymously to Child Protective Services about him. I later found out who and why the call was made, but it was a false report, and I'm the one that straightened out his name with CPS. But it was seen at the time as an attack by me on him.<p>So I had some hurdles to overcome. If we had not had kids though...it might have been alot different.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>quote:
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I had to learn how to appropriately need him and then express that need and gratitude.<p>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>
This seems to be the "bottom line" answer to my question, then, doesn't it?<hr></blockquote><p>Yep, when I learned to just say thank you and ask him for help and then appreciate what he did for me without expressing dissatisfaction because he didn't do it fast enough, or do it my way, or whatever...we made huge strides forward.<p>He wanted to feel appreciated. And I do think that he had a legitimate complaint. I did take him for granted.<p>I'm glad anything I said could help!

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by BrambleRose:
<strong>1. Do you think he might have been hurt too? I don't know your H...but I wonder if he felt that your phone call, when there really was nothing he could do, was simply rubbing it in his face that you don't need him. If he is truely feeling unneeded and unappreciated...a phone call like that probably just reminded him of his failures...<p> On the other hand...2. He may just be appeasing his own guilt. He was feeling guilty for abandoning you - and telling himself and you that he wasn't really shirking his responsibilities
because you are a capable person</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Thanks for writing back, BR. I value your insights!<p>Let me just clarify one thing in this part of your answer, tho. I tend to think it's probably more of Number 2, tho, and here's why:<p>He has said, 'You can handle it" many times. "I knew you could handle the house, the bills, etc." - so I know he really does think that (or know it, it IS true.). I have to find a way to let him know it has NOTHING to do with being "capable" - it has to do with CHOOSING to life the rest of my lfe with him.<p>Second, when I called him, I didn't leave a message, I simply called the #, it went to his VM, which I DID NOT WANT TO HEAR, since it's *her* voice on it. I wasnt' in the mood to deal WITH THAT this morning while dealing with the "critters", so I just hung up. He didn't know WHY I called. But he called me back. Seemed genuinely interested in why and how they kept getting in (this problem has been going on for a few weeks now), but then just dismissed it with "You can handle it." That's where I believe the guilt kicked in....<p>Again, thanks for your interest in my thread, and attempts, without knowing me or my WH, to help with this problem.<p>God Bless,
Lupo

<p>[ January 20, 2002: Message edited by: Bunny ]</p>