I've chosen not to participate in your long thread about "getting it" because I cannot bring myself to waste time arguing with a "drunk."<p>I think you and I "get it" as much as we are capable of. We cannot fully get it because there is nothing to get.<p>I'm reminded of a teenager's logic used after being convicted of the murder of his parents - he wanted special consideration at the time of sentencing because he was an orphan.<p>However, one aspect caught my eye - the brief mention of BSs being "morally or ethically superior to WSs."<p>Specifically, the statement is, "What you are doing (and the bs typically do) is try to define one position as morally, ethically, superior, you can't do that, it is a disrespectful judgement...."<p>OK, I'll say loud and clear that I think I AM morally AND ethically superior to WSs. Further, this is not a disrespectful judgement. Sure, it's a judgement, but any disrespect felt by a WS by this statement is a consequence of hearing the truth.

WAT,<p>Yeppers... I said the same thing somewhere in that thread. Could not agree with you more.

I'll agree with you too, to a point... <p>...and you know that point is that you are morally superior to me, because I made a horrible, terrible, life-changing, nearly deathly decision to have an affair. <p>I think (and I PRAY IT IS TRUE) that for a moment in my life, I lost the truth, and then I got it back. That doesn't mean that I am better or worse than anyone else.<p>When my H was cheating on me, before I ever had my affair, I was not better than he was. I did some things that were sinful, morally wrong, or just plain hurtful sometimes...<p>Most of us have... even you.

Sheryl,<p>I just want to say that I have never seen you stick up for yourself before on these boards. You did it well!<p>(((Support for Sheryl)))<p>TNT<p>Wat & Zorweb, Sheryl is a very loyal MB'er, and I don't feel superior to her as BS. I think that you should affirm how Sheryl feels, and acknowledge that although you may feel superior - that it was insensitive, and that you apologize for making her having to stick up for herself.<p>Just my opinion!

Don't worry about it sheryl, if someone is really morally superior to anyone else, you can rest assured they will never say so, however the world is full of big egos, and self-aggrandizment, in many forms. It seems kinda an oxymoronic behaviour a righteous person would run about proclaiming such. It is all well and good to think well (and hopefully honestly) of oneself, but making your morality the standard others must live up to is a bit um.......biased. Morality and ethics are complex subjects, and used often more for personal gain than not. There is plenty to "get" agg, and it reflects well on you that you try to nderstand this stuff, rather than blow it off cause does not fit your worldview. I can well understand why those who do not, have such difficulty with relationships.

Ultimately, morality includes respect for the value of other people as well as for oneself. Actions that devalue other human beings are immoral. Nevertheless, some people do treat others with disrespect, as if they have little value. People who consistently strive to live their life with respectful consideration for others operate on a higher moral and ethical plane than those who do not. I'll make no judgment about superiority.<p>Standards of morality evolved to enable human beings to live successfully together. To abandon morality is to sacrifice sussessful relationships. <p>Peace,
Estes

Hey Dave,<p>Thanks for your thoughts. I try not to get involved on the forums anymore, since it is often too painful to see the same stories over and over and over again. Somehow I was brought out of my retirement by a recent wave of OW's and WS's pontificating about how we BS's "don't get", how the "times have changed" and we need to "get used to the new reality and move on". Whatever. So I tried to ask SNL what it is exactly that we don't get, and as you can see, 76 posts later, we talked about everything except for my original question.<p>I hesitate to state that categorically BS's are morally superior to WS's. However, I do agree that the actions of a WS (i.e. having an affair) are reprehensible. Beyond that, I don't want to make value judgements.<p>I do think it's curious that WS's like to pick up certain elements of MB that suit them. Eg saying that a BS's disapprovals of an affair are "disrespectful judgements", and that the WS's telling us that they're not in love with us is simply "radical honesty", though they almost always neglect the "radical" part, i.e. telling us that in fact they are already screwing someone else... Right...<p>Anyway, thanks for your thoughts, bud. Happy New Year to you and your son!<p>AGG<p>[ December 31, 2001: Message edited by: AGoodGuy ]</p>

Sheryl - The WSs I referred to were those in the act of being WSs. I have utmost respect and do not feel morally or ethically superior to those WSs who has looked in the mirror, renounced their behavior, and sought redemption. Those, like yourself, are welcomed back to reality and respectful status, IMHO.<p>The point I was trying to make was that I feel superior to murderers, terrorists, liars, adulterers, etc. - generally those who have not lived by the golden rule or basic standards of human conduct and I make no apologies about it. If this makes me arrogant, pompous, or otherwise caustic to these individuals, I don't care.<p>WAT

Thanks for explaining, WAT [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>You know, you and I have had many talks over the years, and you've always treated me with respect and kindness -- I guess that's why it shocked me to read what you'd written.<p>Talk to you next year -- har, har [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ December 31, 2001: Message edited by: new_beginning ]</p>

[img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

Good beliefs to have WAT, I'm with you on this one.

Isn't it interesting that when a post or comment is made and there may or may not be a misunderstanding that resolution can still be made and 'friendships' can still be kept in spite of it all? [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Hm...... this IS how it is suppose to work. We don't always have to agree. Sometimes a miscommunication is made and when brought to our attention, it is worked out without starting WWIII. <p>You see while I agree with WAT, clarification was needed since his statement was not clear. That's ok. That was brought to his attention and without scarcasm it was clarified. I don't think we all need a group hug here but I am glad to see resolution and not mass confusion. <p>What does this mean? WE ARE NOT IN THE FOG AND CAN ACT RATIONALLY! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Sure wish the rest of our family members could do the same....dontcha think!?!??! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>The power of this board is great!<p>JMHO,
L.

Down with the Fog...

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>What does this mean? WE ARE NOT IN THE FOG AND CAN ACT RATIONALLY! <p>Sure wish the rest of our family members could do the same....dontcha think!?!??!<hr></blockquote><p>That was the best statement I have read all day - Glad to know that we are still S A N E !!!! <p>Oh what the heck.... How about a group hug? And let's say good riddence to this year - welcoming in the new year and all of it's new hope!<p>(((((GROUP HUG)))))

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by new_beginning:
<strong>I'll agree with you too, to a point... <p>...and you know that point is that you are morally superior to me, because I made a horrible, terrible, life-changing, nearly deathly decision to have an affair. <p>.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>My God, how could anyone feel morally superior to you, Sherry? You had the character and the courage to face up to what you did, admit it and change yourself. That takes enormous courage and character. Some of the WS we have on these boards are moral giants, in my book, just in the heroic and decent manner they handled themselves after the affair. <p>And then, unfortunately, we have the other kind. Who never take the blame for anything, who continually minimize the destruction left in thier path so they won't have to face the consequences of their pernicious behavior. Who use clintonesque excuses to justify the unjustifiable. And what a contrast they make.

Well, it is 2002 in my neck 'o the woods, and my H is busily surfing through the channels -- ah, and he has found a James Bond movie -- so I came back for a final check on MB... <p>My gosh, MelodyLane, I don't know what to say... but... THANK YOU... and you have made the first words I've read this year beauties!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>TnT, thank you for the boost tonight, and I hope that by the time you read this things are looking up for you this morning!!<p>snl, I know what you're saying, but I've been talking to WAT for quite some time... gosh, he's been on this board the whole time I have, and like I said above, he's told me he respects me (and the feeling is returned), and that's why I got a little hurt by his statement. <p>I sometimes think (and have actually been told) that people forget I was ever a WS (although I don't think I'll ever forget). My affair was thankfully very short (3 months) and produced that one hop in the sack (and I don't call it making love because it wasn't)... and as you know, I hated myself for what I did to my (then)H, my family, and ultimately myself. I am just now getting to the point of self-forgiveness... although clearly, I am not *there* even yet. <p>Top that off with the fact that my ex had so many OW, which almost overshadowed my affair in the end. <p>Sorry to bust in your thread WAT, and I thank you again for your gracious response to me in particular.

I guess this doesn't really have much to do with MB or anything in general, but (melody, or anyone else philosophically inclined) what does moral superiority mean? Aren't we instructed by religion and psychology alike not to um....... measure our self-sorth at others exspense (comparison)? How do we measure moral superiority, and what does it get us? And doesn't the mere act of considering it diminish (pride?)? Lastly if we are going to say this is a real phenomena, and of value (moral superiority) doesn't that imply we must rank every human being on a scale, and each of us with some above and some below (unless we are first or last I guess in the moral superiority rankings). So what then? Do we look down on those below us feeling "superior" to them? And try to emulate, and feel inferior to those above us? So how do we rank the good folks at MB, is melody more superior than tnt, is NB above or below wat[is snl at the bottom [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ], and what is the criteria of measurement? Does it follow that a ws is also cruel to small animals, or could possibly a bs be morally deficient in some other area of human behaviour? Frankly making these kinds of assessments and observations is what leads us to requiring yellow stars on some folks coats (thats for you melody), a slippery slope indeed.<p>Personally I think little is gained by assessing our moral superiority over another, what I think is far more useful is being the best we can be, seeking truth, and leading by example, not condemnation. But what do I know, am only a ws anyways. Re the ever present focus of this board though, I do agree that seeking an affair, and/or being insensitive to the effects of an affair on others is reprehensible. I do not think simply loving someone other than your spouse is necessarily immoral though, it is much more complex than that. It is what you do about it that is important. That is probably why God does not focus too much on what we do, as to why we do it, and what we do about it. I cannot really speak with any statistical authority, but I find it difficult (and especially since harleys, and pretty much every psychologist observe anyone is capable of an affair, probably cause it is normal human behaviour to bond with each other) to believe the majority of ws are uncaring about their bs.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong>I guess this doesn't really have much to do with MB or anything in general, but (melody, or anyone else philosophically inclined) what does moral superiority mean? Aren't we instructed by religion and psychology alike not to um....... measure our self-sorth at others exspense (comparison.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>snl,<p>Are you saying that you are not supposed to judge right from wrong? What an odd statement coming from a proclaimed Christian. [or perhaps I misunderstood and just assumed you were] Please tell me WHAT religion says we are not supposed to distinguish good from bad. [morally superior vs. inferior] But no, I am not instructed by "religion" to do any such thing, nor do I pay homage to psychology.<p>I find it very strange that you continually try to draw an unqualified moral equivalence [or is it moral neutrality?] between everyone. What a very irrational worldview. Do you not distinguish between the moral foundation of a child molestor and yourself? <p>Isn't it sort of dangerous to purport a moral equivalence between the two, because it diminishes the impact of both the good and the bad, leaving you with the lowest common denominator? Or are you just trying to say that we shloud shut up about immoral traits in people and remain morally neutral? To what purpose? Please explain where you are coming from.

perhaps a semantic difference, I don't see where the words moral superiority have anything to do with good or bad, two entirely different concepts, one is prideful (superiority) the other is action oriented (good and bad). And yes I am a Christian fundamentalist.<p>melody..Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
I guess this doesn't really have much to do with MB or anything in general, but (melody, or anyone else philosophically inclined) what does moral superiority mean? Aren't we instructed by religion and psychology alike not to um....... measure our self-sorth at others exspense <p>melody...Are you saying that you are not supposed to judge right from wrong? <p>snl...Each of us should do that yes, but it gets a little more murky when we judge others, and God seems to reserve that right to Himself.<p>melody... nor do I pay homage to psychology.<p>snl..Do you pay "homage" to medicine, engineering, science, etc. etc.? Or do you just kinda wing it and reinvent the wheel as you go (in your image I assume)?<p>melody...I find it very strange that you continually try to draw an unqualified moral equivalence [or is it moral neutrality?] between everyone. What a very irrational worldview. Do you not distinguish between the moral foundation of a child molestor and yourself? <p>snl...These sorts of discussions are rife with confusion (maybe we don't have a precise enough lexicon, I dunno). The Bible makes it clear, there is no moral difference between a child molester and anyone else. We are all the same in Gods eyes, no sinner better or worse than another, and all are sinners. However, we do have the right to protect and govern ourselves, so a child molester will suffer consequences arising from those behavioural choices, I (the body politic) may even execute him, but I do not consider myself morally superior, nor would the execution be based on the moral inferiority of the molester.<p>melody...Isn't it sort of dangerous to purport a moral equivalence between the two, because it diminishes the impact of both the good and the bad, leaving you with the lowest common denominator? Or are you just trying to say that we shloud shut up about immoral traits in people and remain morally neutral? To what purpose? Please explain where you are coming from.<p>snl...I am saying the moment we start assigning I am better than you we travel the road to the final solution (gotta love those nazi comparisons). I think morality should remain in the realm of teaching (primarily as part of child-rearing) and leading by example. I also think moral discussions in the context of making laws is very appropriate (allthough one has to be careful of theorcracies). I am just as guilty of this melody, I too look down my nose at those "less" moral than I, but I do recognize why I do it, and I fight it. We do it to bolster our own self-worth, and IMO that is a shakey foundation for ones self-worth, we should not prosper at anothers expense. It is a dehumanizing behaviour, and one of the ways satan gets at us. I think that is why God specifically tells us not to do so.<p>Instead I believe in consequences. I know I am not "perfect" and expect to regularly experience consequences, trying to avoid those consequences is what is really the issue IMO. Consequences help us grow if we let them. I do think we each need to have a thorough understanding of morality and ethics, so we can choose our actions. Those who don't are immoral I suppose, cause the react opportunistically, but I think of it more as irresponsible. No I don't think we should shut up about morality, we should talk about it alot, but not in a judgemental way. And we must talk about it in the framework of human psychology. God made us this way, and all morality has to be consistent with our psychology, otherwise it is not morality...it is self-serving interest. There are actually very few moral principles, maybe only one, it is the application we fuss about. And just for the record, I did not commit adultery as Biblically defined, and I did not do so on purpose, I could have. But I was unfaithful, I did violate all standards of marital exclusivity expectations (Biblical, and secular..emotional and physical), and I am guilty of infidelity...but I do take morality very seriously. I was not playing a game, I was not lusting, I was bonding, and in so doing I recognized and accepted my marriage (whatever it actual was) was over (and had been for some time). I stretched my morality to the limits and then some, and incured a consequence, a serious consequence, that I am not trying to avoid. I went about this wrong, although I am not sure how I could have gone about it any different without knowing what I know now about human behaviour. So I could sit about beating myself up, or letting others beat me up, to no purpose...or I can try to understand what happened, why, and what the heck marriage and bonding is all about anyways, cause it sure isn't what I thought it was. Whether what I did was right or wrong is a meaningless concept, there were lots of wrong things in my relationship experiences, my whole marriage was wrong too, everything in my life was a confusing mess....why? Cause I did not understand many of the things we talk about here, I too lived by rules, and as rules always do, they fail you, you need to live by understanding, and proactive choice....something I knew, but had lost along the way as I tried to make an increasingly intolerable life somehow work with rules, and hand me down morality.

Well I can feel superior I knew what Dave meant, [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] :<p>sheryl you are one of my heros, you always will be<p>hope both of you have happy new years