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#967179 01/01/02 08:13 PM
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Lora Offline OP
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I cant understand, maybe I am out of touch with the way of the world these days.<p>My H OW met with him to tell him she has another boyfriend... plus the H of course. Shes a busy woman apparently. I think she did it to cause him to be jealous, and maybe its working, he has certainly distanced from me since the talk. She threatened to get another boyfirend right away as they were breaking up. This is love?<p>Resiliants OW threatened to sleep with her H best friend, whats that about? Do men relly just go with feelings of posession and want her all the more because she is with other men?<p>
I have had thoughts of revenge, sure, but I dont think I would follow through, and in truth, I havent had any relationship in the 3 years he hasnt been meeting my needs, and has been having an affair. I imagine if our marriage ends it will be a long time before I can trust another man.
But maybe I am mistaken, maybe I am mising out in the great planX... seems to work for OW.<p>Is it really love if it involves sleeping with other people and jealousey? I never felt that, I always totally trusted my H, when we were dating and all through our marriage until Dday. <p>But its true that I put up a fight and seemed to want him more once he had the affair. Maybe there is something to it.
Lora

#967180 01/01/02 09:27 PM
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normal human behaviour, we all have a possessive side and will kneejerk react to hang on to something harder (even if we don't want it) if we seem to be losing it.....this is much less if WE are the one giving it up, but it applies even then. That is why it is very important for a bs to include independence (and the emotional distancing therein) in plan a, it adds a little pyschological pull to the ws. I suspect if you did something that involved being "available" in any sense to om it would get your H attention. I don't mean dating, but out with some women friends in a setting where om are interacting with you (or could be). Of course this kind of thing done solely to manipulate a spouse is wrong, and can backfire, but if it arises out of one simply doing a good plan a, and hanging out with some friends for me time.... well, kinda of a target of opportunity we call that in the military. As for your H, and the ow dangling a bf in his face, he is an idiot, that is blatant manipulation and has told him all he needs to know about her worthiness. You know how I view human relationships lora, they are complicated, and I do think fitting is important, and there are lots of ways one assesses this, but I also believe their are rules (believe it or not), and one is that if one finds themselves questioning marriage and part of that catalyst was op, that is normal, but the A must stop, being messy humans only gets you so far. You must get your life back on track, and focus on your marriage until resolution is reached....in so doing you let the op go, and they you, that is the price you pay. If (and this is only my opinion) the op pressures you, or actively interferes in your marriage that is a good indicator they are not worthy, and in fact are a predator (as many op are). It is one thing to make friends and listen to each others difficulties and offer support and advice, and quite another to manipulate someone out of a marriage. It sounds like this ow is a manipulator, a predator, and regardless of whether you and H work out, I doubt ow would be good for H, I wonder why he does not see that....or maybe he does, and it is why he has not left you, but he is also not um....... sure you two are right either....and maybe you aren't, but he will not find out without some effort...This is why a marriage cannot be properly resolved while an A is active. He knows she exists, and he knows how he feels, that is true for everyone, but the day to day regular interactions cause too much noise, and confusion, and is why anyone who is responsible, will recognize they must stop the active affair.

#967181 01/01/02 09:36 PM
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YES!<p>I want to know too. Do males (WS) truly get motivated by contrived jealousy by OW? Do they KNOW the OW is doing this yet their testosterone based possession drive them to chase after them anyway?<p>Would you males (WS) MARRY an OW who did this???<p>And I echo Lora's other question (welcome anyone's response) .... IS THIS LOVE, Real Love???<p>Jo<p>[ January 01, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

#967182 01/01/02 10:30 PM
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SNL, Did you edit out the word fit? LoL, youre learning. I wonder, it certainly seems like manipulation, but can you see that when you are involved, when you are just going on feelings? And do you think it excuses her if she is doing it cause she hurts?<p>Jo,
I knew you would chime in here... thought you would be interested.

#967183 01/01/02 10:39 PM
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well jo, I am only one male, and I may not even be a typical male (waaaaaayyyy out to the right on the bell curve) [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] but here goes.<p>jo...YES! I want to know too. Do males (WS) truly get motivated by contrived jealousy by OW?<p>snl.... Never been there, but speaking about relationships in general if a girl showed an interest in another male I was gone, I figured she was either too "stupid" to realize my wothiness, or I wasn't her type, either way I am not programmed to compete with other males. But I think many are.<p>jo...Do they KNOW the OW is doing this yet their testosterone based possession drive them to chase after them anyway?<p>snl...Based on what I have observed in life, I would have to say yes, but again not me.<p>jo...Would you males (WS) MARRY an OW who did this???<p>snl..Not in a million years, and I would leave a spouse who tried to make me jealous as well, it is hugely dishonest, and therefore irreperably damages my most important EN.<p>jo...And I echo Lora's other question (welcome anyone's response) .... IS THIS LOVE, Real Love???<p>snl...Of course not, it violates everything true love means.<p>But you know I do think sometimes we "panic" a little, and default to a little jealousy provoking type behaviour, so there may be some genetic behavioural predisposition for this. It certainly is the basis for many animal mating behaviours (fighting over the female, a sort of jealousy I guess). I think, thinker does this a little, with occassional remarks and such about what she might do, or talking to someone. I have wondered why she does this cause it just makes things worse, but maybe it is also a survival thingy for the person doing it, trying to elicit a jealous response to feel wanted or something. Anyways more of that confusing, but interesting, murky stuff about why we do what we do in human relationships, and I think it all relates back to fitting in one way or another.

#967184 01/01/02 10:40 PM
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Yes, I'd love an answer to this. too. My H found out this summer that his OW that he was cheating on me w/ went off to Dallas w/ an old boyfriend. Ha, isn't that ironic! She cheated on him while he was cheating with her on me! The crazy thing is that he didn't seem to mind so much about it! It seemed to make her MORE attractive in his eyes, not less. My guess would be that its an ego thing, if every guy wants her, and I am the one to have her, then I must be more of a man. Am I correct in this anyone? <p>Even later, when stories came back to him about how she was dating a lot of other men and generally sowing her wild oats, he claimed to not believe it and accused this other person who told these stories about her of being a sociopathic liar. IF thats not a fog I don't know what is. I am happy to say that eventually he must have begun to believe some of it because he never left me for her. We are working on recovery (on some days thats true).<p>But even now, he still has a fondness in his heart for her, and that is what hurts the most. Why is it that a faithful wife who has been there for 15 years through many ups and downs, both personal and financial, and who STILL adores the jerk gets so little recognition for it? OK, thats an unfair question. If anyone had the answer to that they would make a million bucks.<p>SNL, I like to read your posts. I have been reading you for awhile and have often disagreed with you (or perhaps not wanted to hear what you had to say in case it was the truth). In any case, lately I have sensed what seems to be a softening in your position. Don't take that wrong please. I really like to read what you have to say, you are wise in many ways. I'd almost like to know what you would have to say about my personal situation, if I thought I could stand to hear it. You always make me think about my motivations in going on as I do, with plan A and so forth. Keep it up! Thanks, firefly

#967185 01/01/02 10:42 PM
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Yes, I'd love an answer to this. too. My H found out this summer that his OW that he was cheating on me w/ went off to Dallas w/ an old boyfriend. Ha, isn't that ironic! She cheated on him while he was cheating with her on me! The crazy thing is that he didn't seem to mind so much about it! It seemed to make her MORE attractive in his eyes, not less. My guess would be that its an ego thing, if every guy wants her, and I am the one to have her, then I must be more of a man. Am I correct in this anyone? <p>Even later, when stories came back to him about how she was dating a lot of other men and generally sowing her wild oats, he claimed to not believe it and accused this other person who told these stories about her of being a sociopathic liar. IF thats not a fog I don't know what is. I am happy to say that eventually he must have begun to believe some of it because he never left me for her. We are working on recovery (on some days thats true).<p>But even now, he still has a fondness in his heart for her, and that is what hurts the most. Why is it that a faithful wife who has been there for 15 years through many ups and downs, both personal and financial, and who STILL adores the jerk gets so little recognition for it? OK, thats an unfair question. If anyone had the answer to that they would make a million bucks.<p>SNL, I like to read your posts. I have been reading you for awhile and have often disagreed with you (or perhaps not wanted to hear what you had to say in case it was the truth). In any case, lately I have sensed what seems to be a softening in your position. Don't take that wrong please. I really like to read what you have to say, you are wise in many ways. I'd almost like to know what you would have to say about my personal situation, if I thought I could stand to hear it. You always make me think about my motivations in going on as I do, with plan A and so forth. Keep it up! Thanks, firefly

#967186 01/01/02 10:51 PM
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lora.... I wonder, it certainly seems like manipulation, but can you see that when you are involved, when you are just going on feelings?<p>snl...Yes you can see it, this is not brain surgury or anything. But yes if your brains are not engaged, and you are only going on feelings, you may react poorly.....but then I have to ask you lora, why would anyone want a spouse who is so stupid? Folks tend to "excuse" their ws, I suspect I would be a tough bs, cause I would not care so much about the affair, as why, and if my spouse showed such poor judgement that they selected a manipulative user to love, then I am not so sure they are marriage material. Of course that could apply to me as well, my w thinks so, and maybe I am just a big loser, I do think it is an assessment a bs should make though. But I guess this all falls under the rules of protection thingy, if you have a spouse who can be manipulated by op, (or you are vulnerable yourself) you just make sure not to let anyone get in a position to push those buttons, and accept that weakness in yourself or your spouse. Personally I think it is a fit issue though.<p>lora...And do you think it excuses her if she is doing it cause she hurts?<p>snl...Excuses? Heck no. It is a choice, just like all the other ones that are deal breakers, but this is a double whammy, not only is it dishonest if you are both single and try it, but now you are using a dishonest tactic to break-up a marriage. I realize I am always on shakey ground re the nature of love, and it arising outside of a marriage.....but in no way do I countenance actively attacking a marriage by trying to coerce someone out of it.

#967187 01/01/02 11:14 PM
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thank you firefly, think that might be an admiration EN careful [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] .... but seriously, there are lots of um..... wise folks here, I think it has a certain amount to do with age (school of hard knocks), and living through this stuff. But some folks (and I am one) have a keen interest in human behaviour. People are complicated, but not so much we cannot discern patterns of behaviour and make reasonable assessments of them. There are not that many different ways humans behave, there is just different mixes of the basic patterns. Two of the most basic are denial, and fear of change, we are also possessive and seek safety, each of these things can adversely affect mate selection and subsequent happiness if we do not understand how they are applied in ourselves and others. For understanding ourselves Dr. Phil Mcgraw has done a good job with a book called life strategies.....one should also read lots of stuff about personality disorders, it is astounding and depressing how many people there are out there who are poor marriage material, they can be recognized if you know what to look for, unfortuneately we usually get our education after we are married to them. <p>I also think MB is an excellent standard to gauge marital fitting and success, and if it isn't happening, gives you a basis to take definitive action and restore your life (whether you restore your marriage or not), I just differ some on the notion that love is nothing more than a decision and certain behaviours.

#967188 01/02/02 12:57 AM
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Just makes you shake your head in wonder doesn't it?<p>I'm gonna tell a story I don't think I have told yet.<p>This summer we went to Vegas. OW just 'happened' to be there too. Unbelieveably it was total coincidence...happily for them...<p>but she was ANGRY that H was vacationing with me by ourselves...we had dropped kids at my sister's and were there for a week...<p>We stayed at Luxor...she was at Mandalay Bay...just a walkway ride away...and, yeah, H deep in fog got up super early and went to see her...though he told me he went to work out and check out the place...(no, I didn't believe him)...<p>he was really distant that whole day...morose...later I discovered why...I read his journal and discovered that OW told him she had s** with someone else while there...<p>Now that she did didn't surprise me...what did is that she told him...why else tell if not to make him jealous...also she berated him for bringing me...<p>I, too, don't understand the whole manipulative thing...won't say I haven't been tempted to use it...but couldn't follow through...<p>No, you are not a prude...nor am I...we happily don't use our bodies and s** as some kind of manipulative control...<p>Though, I have to say I think what she did worked in my favor...suddenly he was questioning me...did I sleep with someone on a weekend conference...etc...etc...guess it got him thinking that if she would, I could too...<p>...AS IF!
Hugzzz Lora,
I know you are going through a tough time...just remember...to your own heart be true...you can't go wrong...<p>Cali

#967189 01/03/02 12:10 AM
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Bump ^ <p>For more responses. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

#967190 01/02/02 01:00 PM
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OW #1 tried it with my H, and it didn't work.<p>Maybe it depends on the emotional attachment involved? H had fun with her, but didn't have real feelings for her. She did for him, and since he wasn't giving her everything that she needed, she started seeing another one of their coworkers to try and make my H jealous. As soon as she started pushing for a "committment", he stopped all communication - he didn't call her, he didn't see her, and he found another job. He basically put her out to pasture when she tried pulling that (although if you ask me, that sow never left the pasture! Sorry, I'll be good.)

#967191 01/02/02 03:20 PM
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SNL,
You talk a good talk, but I really have to wonder. If your OW called you today and said she was seeing someone else, would that negaate everything you think about her right now and the fit you think you have with her?<p>Cali,
How hard on you that must have been, yet good in the long run. But the fog is thick and it is able to cover all faults,I only wish some would be directed my way. Instead it seems like it magnifies my faults at the same time it covers hers.<p>Carolina Belle,
Yes, I think emotions do make a difference, if you react only on your emotions you are going to be jealous, but if you think a minute you should be able to see how manipulative and really non loving it is.

#967192 01/02/02 03:35 PM
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Just basic human instinct, Women like to be pursued, Men like the hunt. She was just letting him know that he should be chasing her. I know we modern humans are supposed be above all this but, a few centuries of civilization does not negate millenniums of selective breeding with these traits being dominate for a successful procreation. <p>JMHO,
HI

#967193 01/02/02 03:51 PM
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Lora,
When my H's former OW started dating H's housemate during one of reconciliations (#5), I don't think it made her more attractive to H. Or maybe he just felt loyalty to the housemate...anyway, no PA after that, though emails continued--and they're co-workers of course. But she had at least 2 if not 3 other relationships during the 18 month A, but some of that time, my H was home.<p>Geez, I suddenly want to go spit. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Perhaps it is that a woman who would be with a MM doesn't have a sense of fidelity? It's the kind of woman?

#967194 01/02/02 04:41 PM
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And hey, Lora?<p>IMVHO, I don't think it's a matter of being a "Prude", I think it's a matter of ethics, character and values. Your question instead should ask .......<p>"Am I manipulative and coniving?"<p>And no, of course you are not. To resort to such tactics is, IMO, pathetically desperate, and as SnL pointed out, preditorial. <p>Think back when you and H dated before marriage. Did you have to resort to any such scheming amoral insidious manipulation? No, of course you didn't, and that's because you're not wired that way ..... and you weren't trying to lure and coerce him away from his wife and family.<p>Jo<p>[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

#967195 01/02/02 05:15 PM
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Hi Fidelity,
I guess you are right, so if he doesnt chase her do you think she will get pissed? <p>Lor,
I think its a case of OW haveing no or inappropriate boundrys. They dont respect the boundry of marriage or of a relationship. <p>Jo, You know sometimes I want to be bad.... manipulate the heck out of someone. But I dont think Id be very good at it.

#967196 01/04/02 12:49 AM
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<strong>so if he doesnt chase her do you think she will get pissed?
</strong>
Hard to say. That is more of a character type of thing. Does it matter if she does? If I had to take a stab at it, I'd guess the next contact from her will be "how great things are going with the new guy" followed in few weeks by "how the new guy hurt her" & "how are you and the wife doing" sympathy/I'm available again kinda thing.<p>I know this all sounds very Junior Highish, but my observation about EMAs is that the participants can be very in tune to those teenage melodrama feelings/actions/decisions. <p>HI<p>[ January 03, 2002: Message edited by: Hi Infidelity ]</p>

#967197 01/03/02 09:49 PM
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Lora, I agree with Jo, you're not a prude, it's a matter of ethics. Maybe there's some instant gratification in playing the manipulation game but no real love or real intimacy without honesty. What's hard to deal with is that the WS is willing to settle for that and the questions that raises, as snl said, about whether he's really good marriage material if that's what he's after.<p>I have these same questions. How long am I willing to give WS the benefit of the doubt for his immature and not so stable behavior?


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