YOUUUUUU BETCHA it did.<p> i was very angry at:<p> being taken for granted
being verbally beaten
being not loved
disrespected
taken advantage of<p> and im sure many more. but yep....it was fuel for an already low burning fire.<p> and then the additoinal anger came when <p> i was FORCED to choose. (ha)<p>anyhowl...it isnt exactly WHY.....but definelty as a result of.<p>mercy
WS

Hello mercy,<p>If you don't mind sharing, what did you choose and why? If your anger has diminished, what caused it to eventually lessen? I'm trying to learn.<p>Thanks, Estes

Hi, My H seems to be very angry about alot of things... and very angry at me... says that he would not of had affair, if he did not think marriage was over. <p>So much for our family.<p>THanks, HONEY

Well...
As far as I know neither one of us has cheated. But I can tell you that I have been reading all of the postings in an effort to keep me sane and prevent me from cheating. And yes, to answer your poll.. I am very angry.
I think H has been punishing me since the day we married. For someone who can't find his own niche in the career world he sure has enough judgment and criticism about me. He's got "tips" for me from everything from table manners to parenting and IT MAKES ME CRAZY!!! I don't think I could live with the anxiety of an A.
Just contemplating one keeps me up at night -which explains why I'm typing this at 3:30 a.m.
Is there help on this site for people who want to "get clear" with their life but are definitely NOT ready to do all that Plan A stuff? I hate him too much right now. Actually, I don't hate him - that is too strong an emotion to send his way. I really couldn't care less about him. I'd have been gone years ago if we did not have small children. I fantasize about winning the Powerball so I can write him a five million dollar check for my freedom.
So yes I would say Affairs often do start with anger or hurt or resentment or loneliness.
Yeah, yeah - could I turn that around? Everytime I tried (many years ago - I've given up) I usually got "bitten".

orchid, the question was about anger, I am not angry about marriage, (I was long ago, but I made peace with that). Emotionally I had no marriage, was nothing to be angry about. I am a pragmatic person, I figured out long ago you cannot lose what you never had, and I never had a marital bond, I had a peice of paper, I had obligations, I had kids to parent, but I had no intimate bond...... as for ow, she did not do anything, this was my choice, I was not bedazzled, or seduced away, there was no family to break up (in the sense you mean) only the "picture"...you can never break up familial connections anyways. For reasons I don't really understand family is used as some kind of an icon to worship, there is nothing inherent about having children that gaurantees a successful intimate relationship, or a lifetime of happiness with someone, and making that the reason you give your life away forever is foolish (psychologically speaking). <p>I do think young children deserve a higher level of sacrifice till they are raised (if 2 people can cooperate enough to provide the proper emotional/psychological enviroment, many cannot, and we were borderline, I will always wonder if staying married helped or hurt them more). But that only applies while being raised, then the 2 people have to face the music, the deferred decision of whether they really do fit enough to enthusiastically choose each other for a lifetime. We didn't, thinker had made it clear for last 3-4 years she did not want to be married to me, I had come to agree with her, and we were just putting in our time until someone (basically me) got the lawyer. OP cannot break up families orchid, the 2 people in them make their own decisions. And I did make a friend, that is what it was about, it was not about anger, or looking for adventure, I made a friend who had the same kind of life I had, and who was also emotionally gone, after years of marital effort, and nature took it's course. Right? or Wrong? I don't really know, may never really know, this whole area of human bonding is very complicated, I don't believe in sacrificial love, or ownership love (vows). I believe love is a function of fitting, and a psychological phenomena we have no actual control over. We can deny it, avoid it, live in loveless (caring, and dutiful, but not in-love) marriages, but we cannot make ourselves be in-love, or not be in-love. What was wrong, and would not work was the behaviour of the affair. Ideally when one finds themselves drawn in that way to another, they should stop, and end or restore their marriage, and that is what I have done. <p>I will be forever judged for where I actually stopped, and that is ok, it is what people do, and if it suits folks to condemn me, so be it....but I needed to understand what was happening, and where I belonged, so I walked that path. I will not walk it again, the price is too high, but also I know now how to recognize a dysfunctional marriage and that one cannot just ignore the dysfunction, one needs to fix it, or end it, and that is what I am guilty of, and thinker....we never should have lived a life like this, we should have ended it long ago.<p>Ya know orchid, if people never um..... let any feeling develop for op, but just stayed in their marriage, even if desperately unhappy, cause they knew no different, would that be better? I think as a species, "affairs" are a safety valve, they counteract dysfunctional marriages, either by createing a crisis that can no longer be ignored (and resulting in marital restoration), or by giving people the incentive/courage to leave. Before anyone FLAMES me, I am not talking about concious choice, I am talking about how our species works genetically, we are not monogamous as a species, nor is marriage inherent behaviour, it is a social construct, and to the extent it does not accurately account for human psychology, there will be "affairs". Instead of promoting morality (as in don't have affairs) we could solve the problem much better by making marriage much harder to enter (and apply MB principles to the pre-marital process). The problem is not morality, the problem is people do a poor job of mate selection, and are woefully ingnorant re what marriage is about, what to expect, and how to deal with it.<p>btw, while I have no doubt affairs do start out of anger, I don't think that many do. It is a simplistic concept, and implies affairs are just cause someones ens weren't met, and they got mad and played somewhere else to get even or something.

OK Jo, now I think it's time to ask the obvious follow-up question.<p>If many, if not most, affairs start in anger, then why aren't there more affairs?<p>My wife has the distinction of making me both the most happy and the most angry in my life, yet I didn't have an affair.<p>My point, of course, is that it takes much more than anger and unmet needs for a WS to become a WS. Sure, the popular opinion is that it can happen to "anybody" - yet it doesn't happen to everybody. IMHO, there has to be that element of putting your needs before those of the "victims." In a few words, selfishness, disrespect, loss of integrity - all the adjectives to describe a lapse of morals and ethics. So, anger is just a piece of the puzzle.

Hmmmm...
Whatever happened to just being plain horny???<p>Nobody has mentioned that?!<p>In my case, just guessing here, MM and his wife were jr. high sweethearts so he probably felt he was missing out on life by not dating others.<p>I think he was just plain horny...<p>Interesting how a female could think that having sex with some man is getting back at another(?) Especially regarding the woman's role in sex... so much on the receiving end of things. How is that sticking it to anyone? [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] To me, (esp. for a woman), revenge sex is only hurts yourself!<p>Was I promiscuous because I was angry? Maybe not I, but I believe MY MOM was very angry toward the men in her life and her attitude bled down to me. Either her attitude or her many divorces sent me on my quest to find the fatherly love I never had... Little did I know, it was only a prayer away the whole time... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I will not deny that we women can be so wicked! It's up to our men to love the "hell" out of us!

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by worthatry:
<strong>If many, if not most, affairs start in anger, then why aren't there more affairs?<p>My wife has the distinction of making me both the most happy and the most angry in my life, yet I didn't have an affair.
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>OOooh, I'm glad you asked this question, Dave. I was just getting ready to respond to the original question, and then I read yours....I agree entirely with what you are postulating. <p>I know all M couples get angry at times w/each other, yet don't run right out and have A's! I think - first of all - that we're talking about sustained unmet needs, maybe years (even if the BS wasn't aware of that!). Also, we're talking about a person who maybe isn't happy in their own skin, and can't dig themselves OUT of their own unhappiness. In other words, "the less stable" partner? I'm not trying to say all WS's are UNstable. But I think they probably are the partner who has a lower self-esteem, more unhappy with themselves, and has looked for happiness from things outside themselves their whole lives.<p>I don't think they are aware of the anger...Maybe subconsiously angry? Dave, you wrote "In your WW's case, pain." What about anger AT HERSELF? Yes, pain, but also ANGER at herself for failing as a mother to protect her son? I know you've been over this and over it, but I just still think there's deep anger there somewhere.<p>I think my WH is also Passive Agressive, and I think that A was his only way to show his aggression (anger). All the other "techniques" he had used to "get to me" were well-known to me, and I saw through them, so didn't give him any time for them anymore!<p>Katie's quote: "Plan A is so interesting. It is the refusal (in the face of hurtful acts) to continue the cycle." This makes a LOT of sense! GET OFF THE merry-go-round....don't repay anger for anger. THAT"s what makes WS's keep going! This is why MB has such successful record.<p>my 02¢<p>Lupo

WAT and Lupo DITTO on your posts!!
I think anger is just the tip of the iceberg,too.<p>I think sometimes it is just emotional immaturity. My H is a recovering alcoholic,sober since Oct '94. They say that you only begin to mature when you stop drinking,in relation to how you were when you started. He started to drink alcoholically at about 20,so is he 27,emotionally? Low self esteem, unsatisfied with EVERYTHING in life (was, not anymore),always questioning.
Soemthing he did during the A, he would smoke cigarette after cigarette and put the butts in his soda can. And I asked him not to,please, because they smelled awful and when I took them back to the store, it was just nasty. Do you know he continued to do it but this ,time, it was ON PURPOSE...because he was angry at "how DARE I" tell HIM what to do!! What a baby...a big selfish,self-righteous baby.

Mercy?<p>Any chance you can answer Estes questions, Hon?<p>Jo

lupolady, you wrote the following: <p> "I think - first of all - that we're talking about sustained unmet needs, maybe years (even if the BS wasn't aware of that!). Also, we're talking about a person who maybe isn't happy in their own skin, and can't dig themselves OUT of their own unhappiness. In other words, "the less stable" partner? I'm not trying to say all WS's are UNstable. But I think they probably are the partner who has a lower self-esteem, more unhappy with themselves, and has looked for happiness from things outside themselves their whole lives."<p>That is sooooo my situation almost to a "T"<p>I (BS) was not aware of the unmet needs...and WS was not happy for years (she says)---yet I didn't know it, really.<p>So how does this relate to being angry? If you go back to the first post on this thread (mine) I think I said something about mistaking anger for frustration. In my case I am pretty sure it was just that. Frustration in what my W was feeling...AND frustration in not being able to communicate that to me. Not all her fault on communication, because to communicate you need a good receiver and evidently I wasn't.<p>As I re-read your quote again...it hits so close to home it is scary [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Thanks [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>E

Jo, Great thread. Yes, my H was very angry when he started the A. In fact, he'd been extremely verbally abusive for the past 3 months before suddenly moving in with OW. <p>H felt unappreciated by me and OW adored him (she's less than 1/2 his age and is estranged from her father who's about H's age). But, I believe feeling unappreciated is his own issue, not purely based on my behavior. <p>H is alcoholic, formerly in recovery, but not now. He began drinking about 9 months prior to the A and everything slowly fell apart from that point on. Actually, maybe it dated back to 1.5 years earlier when I was diagnosed with breast cancer. H turned to OW for support, cried on her shoulder rather than mine, afraid to express his fears of losing me - like the thought of death never crossed MY mind... <p>He stopped having sex with me after my diagnosis. TWO YEARS later, after mastectomy, chemo, radiation, and reconstructive surgery, I got brave enough to seduce him in the hot tub. After that all h*** broke loose and he spent 3 months verbally abusing me for his belief that I loved an old boyfriend more than him (based on reading my diary with references to feeling wanted sexually by old bf). <p>Nothing I could say or do could change his mind. He refused counselling, just screamed, yelled, threatened, and then suddenly moved in with OW who was having marital problems of her own (He now realized it was EA prior to this point).<p>Like BrambleRose, my H continues to insist that he didn't have an affair since he left me first (thought he continued to see me and have sex with me through entire affair, so maybe he was "cheating" on her as he once told me). And like honey, he says he believed the M was over.<p>His also seemed like MLC - He's 49, OW is 22, he bought an old Porsche and a new guitar soon after leaving, started listening to rap music, which OW liked, became totally irresponsible, etc.<p>I agree with Orchid, WAT, and lupolady about the happiness, or stability, factor. Like Mercy, I was also feeling "taken for granted, verbally beaten, not loved disrespected, and taken advantage of" but I didn't have an affair. Why? because I respect myself too much. <p>Having had an affair many years ago while living with an old boyfriend, I realized what a dead end it is for all involved. The man with whom I had the affair at that time was the one who made me feel sexually desirable - it was an affair for goodness sakes! - and that was a feeling I missed when my H, who I love, refused to have sex with me or even discuss it right after I'd had a breast removed and was thrown into premature menopause!<p>Who knows why some do and some don't have affairs. I had the opportunity since H's A, but I'm very glad I didn't take it. When I had an A in the past, I justified it with my anger at feeling neglected, etc. by my then boyfriend. When you know you're doing wrong, you have to justify it somehow.

Yes, I believe that affairs start out of anger! SNL did start his affair out of anger! He was angry at me and the kids. He was unhappy, just like I was. He met a contolling woman on the internet. Of course he doesn't say anything wrong about her. But likewise, she was a big time controller and quite an angry woman. She has already had another sexual affair with another man in her marriage. My H is her second for sure, and possibly a thrid, my detective was investigating. She controlled me, in her calling me. This woman was a controller and angry at her husband. So she sought someone who would give her attention, and led my H on, knowing exactly where this was going to lead, into bed. Our counselors told us that she knew exactly what she was doing, and did get her sexual stuff in the affair that she knew going the route she planned. And as far as being an adulterer, SNL did commit adultery. The two of them undressed each other, and touched all the private parts of each others body. But SNL says he did not commit adultery. Therefore, this marriage will not heal, cause he did nothing wrong. So I guess I can met a nice looking man, and say lets go to bed and undress and have fun with each other, and touch each other sexually, and do the oral stuff and it will be okay. At least according to SNL, I am just trying to bond with this person, since my marriage is nothing.
And of course I will not tell my H either, just keep this a dirty little secret, like his wonderful OW. <p>Just giving you my opinion on my H's affair with the OW, who he still sees as a great woman! He still states her as honorable and smart.

Absoulty<p>As both a WS and BS the I can say its definately anger. Its a shame the kids have to suffer.

Hmmm... did it begin in anger? Well, first of all, which one?? [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] <p>The first one? Well, it started BEFORE we were married. Yet she still had the desire to marry me, put on one heck of a smiley face, that's for sure. We were pretty happy back then, at least speaking for myself. If it was anger, she sure didn't show it. So no, the first was not anger. What do I think it was? Huh... possibly a) immaturity, b) selfishness, c) curiosity, d) "bad girl" syndrome, e) disrespect towards me, f) boredom, g) she thought she could get away with it, so it would be okay, h) horniness, i) self-esteem issues, j) rebellion, k) restlessness, l) insert any number of other reasons here. I don't know, really - maybe any or all of the above.<p>The current one? Well, she claims anger was an important part of it. But now she's starting to lose her handle on that anger. Part of that is because of my Plan A'ing, I believe - she has nothing in me to fight against. She knows I'm a good person who doesn't deserve this crap - so her guilt is intensifying - she admitted tonight that she's more confused than ever about how she feels about me - I take that as a compliment, actually! [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img] <p>So what is it? Maybe some of the same reasons from A #1. I have to suspect that at least. I know how I contributed to the environment, I've acknowledged it, I've been changing myself, creating a really great environment for a wonderful marriage that she can see and acknowledges - and she frequently states that her reasons are mostly about her shortcomings, not mine. So anger, again, I think isn't always a driving force, even when claimed it is sometimes.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Resilient:
<strong><p>I'd like to hear from both the BS and WS, as to whether or not you believe the A in your marriage started in "Anger". And if so, what were they/you angry about?<p>Lv,
Jo<p>[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</strong><hr></blockquote><p>My H's affair began in depression, which led to a mid life crisis. When the affair started he felt immense guilt, beign a cheater pretty much goes entirely against how he was raised and the things he has always claimed to believe. It was the guilt that led to anger. He had to grasp at anything to try and justify his actions, and blaming me was the easiest thing. The things he came up with to blame me for were incredibly lame and he knew it. Then he was angry when he realized I wasn't going to go along with his ridiculous plan of a quickie dissolution in which he got the house & most of the assets and I got an apartment that he would pay for for 6 months lol. The funny thing is, that once the fog began to clear, it was no longer my fault at all in his eyes. By the time he came home for good he had me on a pedestal as a cnadidate for sainthood lol. How the worm turns....

well i can certainly agree to all of the posts here.....anger-- tip of iceberg.....horny? cant say that was a cause....but there certainly was a very very big sexual "air" around us during our "friendship".<p>also ......OPPORTUNITY....GUTS.... has a play in it all too..<p>res.....i answer ed him finally1! [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] sorry too k so long!! i forgot i posted to this topic [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>mercy [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

It's hard to add to the perfect reply that Elad gave right away, but here's thoughts from THIS WS [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I was sad, hurt, depressed, low self esteem, needy, frustrated and desparate by the time I gave in to temptation. The way I have often described it is, "the straw that broke the camel's back" as far as, me begging for what I needed and not getting it from my husband.<p>Finally it was just too much! And I snapped. I became someone else for a long time.<p>Thank God (yes, really!) He came after me and saved me from myself!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Neither of H's A's had anything to do with anger. Number one was a listake when he was drunk. It took place when we were "happy." He felt guilty, says he never did it again until this A now. This one really caught him at his MLC, his inability to deal withproblems and conflicts of which there were much apparently that I was only vaguely aware of.<p>I think that he was dissatisfied with the life he created, and because of his drinking I did not show him the respect or worship he required to feel empowered. There is nothing I can do now, but let it go. Which I have done or I would not even be able to write it!<p>OW gave him back his power, his self worth and touched it with the passion that comes from illicitness(whilst unknown to me.) But she cannot give him what he needs most. <p>That only can come from within, and he is not looking hard for it.

Bump for Lupo regarding her "WS Anger" post.<p>Hope this helps you, Lupo.<p>Love,
Jo<p>[ April 09, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>