I'm going to throw this question out here to see what y'all think.<p>Has anyone had any experience with the BS moving out of the house and has it actually accomplished anything?<p>In my situation, it would mean I would have to rent a small apt, take $700/mo out of our already limited monthly income, force me into a second job, limit the time I can spend with the kids (imagine 4 kids in a 1 bedroom apartment when I have visitation!) plus all the other hassles that I know would come up. I don't see any positives coming out of this.<p>I'm not saying I would do it, just need to get some feedback in case W turns this into an ugly situation and I have to do something drastic to protect me and the kids from further pain and suffering.

loveherstill --<p>I am the BS and I moved out of my home on Nov. 11. I certainly don't know if it was the right thing to do but I know that it was the only thing to do. My W was not going to go and life around the house became intolerable, after three months of coldness and tension, so something had to give--somebody had to make a move to relieve the strain and pressure and almost daily confrontations. It was horribly unpleasant and unhealthy. Now it's just very unpleasant being by myself without my family.<p>I believe that my WS should have gone but she wasn't and I couldn't and wouldn't "throw her out." My gift (how I need to look at it) to her and to our marriage and family was for me to go. She remains in the home with our two daughters and relative comfort in familiar surroundings. I moved to a room (to save expenses) by myself and have little distraction and way too much thinking and brooding time. I hate it but I'm doing it!<p>It costs us a bundle to live in two essentially separate locations, money we can't afford. But the move relieved the daily tension of seeing her and being around her and pretending to interact gracefully. It just traded one kind of pain for another.<p>My experiences aren't yours but I heard my situation in much of what you were posting. You can do it if you have to. I had to and I'm learning that it's possible and sometimes necessary to do what last year you never would have thought possible, certainly not desireable. "Never in a million years" comes sooner than we think.<p>Hang in there and post again to keep in touch.<p>Ammon

Ammon-<p>I think we may be in very similar situations. This is something I don't want to do, but may have to do to protect not only my own emotional well being, but my kids financial well-being. W is becoming very stubborn and is using almost every trick in the book to get me out of the house. I honestly believe that this is so she can see OM without me knowing about it. In just the few conversations that I have had with her today I can tell that she is getting very viscous towards me. I think me catching her and OM together yesterday has really forced her hand.<p>But, if I do go, it needs to be on my own terms and when I feel comfortable doing it. Right now it would be out of anger and spite, almost like I am trying to get back at her for hurting me. Personally, I can make it on my own, its my kids I worry about. Something like this would turn their world upside down and they will suffer a lot because of it.<p>If I do go, I'm not sure if I want to even try any kind of Plan A with her. Having to move out under these circiumstances, together with the A, would be the ultimate betrayal and put the ole Love Bank into bankruptcy mode. I guess that means going to a Plan B, which right now I have a hard time doing.

loveherstill --<p>Protecting your emotional well-being is critical and was for me the deciding factor. I was in constant and severe pain being under the same roof and even sleeping in the same bed. I needed to move out for me. <p>I am worried about my daughters and trying to maintain our close relationship with me on the outside. I don't have our usual and normal daily contact. It's not easy at all and it seems to be getting harder. I knew that me moving was a risk and some advised against it but something needed to give. Nobody wants to do this sort of thing in our position but for me it was necessary.<p>I'm certain that my daughters are hurting and confused by all of this. We've talked about the situation and, while they don't say much, I know they don't understand what's happened and why. <p>You'll know when you reach the saturation point. You'll know when it's time. It does need to be on your schedule and when you're comfortable with it. Things may not reach that point (that would be nice) but you need to feel (you may never know) that you're making the right decision. Of course your kids will be devastated along with you but you need to be OK first so that you can help them through it. Everyone suffers--everyone--as a result of something like this. No one is immune.<p>I'm glad to hear you say that you can make it on your own--that shows strength and determination. I don't know that your leaving now would be out of "anger and spite" but I do know that you have to look out for yourself first. Certainly catching her with the OM has put immense pressure on her and hopefully some guilt and remorse.<p>Hope this helps. Post again soon and know that we care. My very best wishes,<p>Ammon

LHS,<p> I felt the same way about leaving. Couldn&#8217;t do it because I was the only stability my kids had at the time and the PCG while WW traveled with OM for "business". But move out "Plan B" was exactly what S. Harley advised me to do. Told him that my attorney advised against this due to child custody/abandonment issues. He understood and acknowledged that his advice was for relationships and not legal aspects in any way. In my eyes it was a catch 22 when the BS is male and has children. <p>1. If you throw her out, then you've got LB's and potential domestic violence looking issues to contend with.
2. If you leave, looks like abandonment by the father, since adultery doesn&#8217;t seem to amount to much in the courts and it takes hard core proof even if it did, so you'll have big time custody issues to prove you're fit, and can provide an adequate living space for the kids. Then of course you'll look like the bad guy in your children's eyes, since you can&#8217;t tell then the "real" reason.<p>Really S-cks!!! The reasonable answer is to have the BS voluntarily move out. I tried that with a plan B letter and failed. But it's worth a try asking.<p>In your case, I think I would advise the following. The OM lives next door, so even if you do get back together that'll be a problem. Have a heart to heart with the WW and start making plans to "separate" and selling your house so you can each have you own place is part of the package. I used this approach as well. Didn&#8217;t end up selling my house but the concept truly got her attention for a short period of time. <p>
Good Luck,
HI

IMHO, male BSs moving out - or female ones for that matter - is a huge mistake if children are involved unless you secure a signed legal separation ahead of time that specifies the actual reasons for the separation - and even then it's the least desirable choice. By all means, seek the advice of an attorney for this. <p>Unfortunately, this is where the legal stuff and relationship stuff take two different forks in the road and I think the results are mutually exclusive when the WS refuses to leave instead, so Steve is right to give the disclaimer.<p>I refused to move out and it's the smartest thing I did. It forces the WS to make a tough decision and often, it seems (although not for me), they get a dose of reality in the process. If for no other reason, to a certain extent it defines who the victim is for all to see. Granted, physically abused spouses should run like hell, but when adultery is the issue, the faithful spouse should stand his/her ground, IMO. I can understand how unbearable it might be, but I think most would recommend staying and trying to solve problems rather than running from them is the "right" choice.<p>So, for you it might be the only option. In this case, get the legal stuff nailed down so the "abandonment" accusation won't stick.<p>Good luck.

One more thought after re-reading Hi Infidelity's reply again:<p>If you decide to stay, you can't "throw" her out - neither legally nor relationship-wise. I believe you have to "allow" her to make the decision. Just take your stand for the family. <p>To her: "You may leave if you feel you must, but I'm staying because this is our home and the home of our children."<p>If she can still leave under those conditions, she needs to, IMHO.<p>WAT

WAT --<p>I appreciate your take on this issue. You raise some excellent points. Since I have moved out of our home, I find that more and more people are concerned about the legal aspects for me. <p>I made my decision to leave on purely emotional grounds, not legal ones. I hope I haven't created more problems than I solved. I agree that, had I stayed--as you did, my WS would have been pressured into some very hard decisions. As it stands now, she's really sitting pretty with no reason to rock the boat. <p>You're right: most of my friends and my brother have always thought that she should be the one to go. Staying and trying to work out the problems was an option but the situation was intolerable for me and, frankly, after a month and a half of separation, things are not much better; certainly we're no closer to reconciliation. Would things be better if I had stayed? I don't think so at all. But your point about defining the victim came through loud and clear. As the BS, I'm sort of acting like a WS by leaving. I believed it was the right and sane and protective thing to do...at the time. I am questioning it now but primarily because there's been no motion or resolution. I'm trying to be patient but it gets harder as time goes on.<p>Thanks very much for your comments and suggestions. I plan to see my attorney on Friday just to chat a bit about things legal. You've helped me to be on guard.<p>Ammon

LHS--I faced that dilemma when WS was trying to get her cake, eat it and have seconds. She was carrying on in the A, which I thought was over. She said that we needed a separation so she could "sort things out", which the Harley's say is almost always a sign an A is on.<p>Her behavior at the time was horrid--she would come home from work whenever she felt like it; she would go out on the weekends and come home whenever it was convenient for her; she would not show up to my S's games, etc etc etc. The whole time I was being SuperDad and kept up the house, the bills etc.<p>So when she asked me to move out, I said no freaking way. I posed that question to the Plan A/Plan B group at the time and it was unanimous for her to go. I stood my ground. <p>Also, what the others say about "abandonment" is correct. It's likely you two need to separate, especially if you have Plan A'd and are getting no where, but I STRONGLY urge you to make her move out. Let her do the legwork of getting apartment, hooking up utilities, moving some furniture. <p>She will resist and will say she's the mom, yada yada yada. Be firm.<p>Good luck

Wat-
Your last response is exactly what I told WS and have been repeating each time it comes up. IMO, WS is the one screwing up the marriage not only with the A, but unwillingness to begin recovery. Why should the BS be the one to leave and give up everything they hold dear to them. I take my marriage vows and family seriously, if WS doesn't, to bad for her. I have told W that if this is the life she wants to live (continuing contact with OM, partying, leaving us all the time), she needs to live it somewhere else. <p>So for now I am holding my ground, my boundaries and focusing on myself and the kids. If we have to live in the same house and ignore each other, so be it, it won't be because of my mistakes. I'll just have to make more of an effort to avoid LB's. I have said before that I believe that W wants me out of the way so she can be with OM without me knowing, I think yesterday proved it. So here is a big reality check for W and she will have to make a choice. I wonder if OM is telling his W the same thing, wonder if another anonymous phone call is in order (no, I won't, but it sure would be fun to see what happens)

lhs,<p>I guess you know I moved out. I think this is a really tough issue and it's different depending one's situation. I will say that I remember I went through this (where I think you're at) about 4 or 5 months after DDay. I kicked her out and refused to leave. I couldn't leave just because of my emotional state and I held a lot of resentment. She returned with more promises but all that did was buy time. In a way it was good for me because it allowed me to move further down the road in my own recovery. After 10 months I was ready and moved out because contact was still happening and I was becoming enabling. Maybe I just reached my breaking point. I have been able to focus on my kids, myself, and actually just being pretty good friends with W. I have created a home for them in a two bedroom apartment and they want to come and stay with me. I think that was the key. For me I needed to create a home. I will say that I am probably pretty lucky as W and I have not played the silly control games with kids. I have them as much as she does. I think if I would have left earlier it would have been tougher on the kids and the games would have started.<p>
Don't know if this helps but I think Ammon is right. You'll know when it's time.<p>who

IMHO you should not move out. It does several bad things.<p>It makes it very easy for your marriage to end. Once you are out, your wife has no reason what so ever to give up OM or to work on your marriage. I read somewhere that once a couple separates, they almost never reconcile. Being together in the same home is essential. I also believe that there will come the day when your wife will throw in your face that of course she was right in having the affair, you could have cared less about her? you left. I had that one thrown at me by my ex-h? "gee you did not ever fight to keep me." He has even told my son that he loved me but I abandoned him. This is the man who had one affair after the other for the 20 years of dating and being married. Guess he also forgets about the 8 or 9 years of my trying to get him to work on things. WS's are very talented at revisionist history.<p>Your children will always view you as the one who broke up the marriage?. It's clear, mom stayed with them, you left. While your emotional stability is important, so is the well being of your children. And your relationship with them is important too. Are you really willing to leave your kids with a mother who is not behaving in a totally rational manner? If you leave, the courts will look at her as the 'stable' parent. You will be seen as the one who abandoned the family. You will have a very limited visitation schedule with your kids. Is this what you want? Loose our wife and your kids both? Your children need YOU to protect them from this ciaos that is going on in their lives. You are the only parent right now who is truly concerned with the well being of your family.<p>While it is true that your emotional stability is very important, you can gain quite a lot of emotional stability living in the same house as she is. Just Plan A her and keep to yourself. Get some individual counseling. I know it's possible, I did it for years. You cannot control your wife's actions and you can control your own. Just concentrate mostly on your children and yourself.<p>As for your wife moving or not moving. Tell her that you will not move as you will never abandon your family. You could tell her that you have given up on trying to end her contact with OM. That you know she has contact with OM, that it looks like the affair is on. That you will assume it is until the day she is ready to really work on your marriage and she agrees to no contact. In the mean time, you are slowly falling out of love with her. That at this point she will have to take some extraordinary measure to prove her intent to you. When that happens you will file for divorce, if she has not truly returned to the marriage. Just ask her to not conduct the affair in front of you and your children. This includes no phone calls at home.<p>At this point I believe she is calling your bluff.. she figures that if she makes your life miserable you will leave and she will be sitting pretty. Do not let her play that game. It is destructive to your entire family. My bet is that if you do not fuss about her affair she will either give it up because she no longer gets the attention she wants, or she will pick it up and start spending less and less time at home. And she will eventually move out with no real fanfare. But make it a contest where either you move or she does? she is going to try to win every time.<p>Have a quick side question for you. Does your wife ever go out and leave your kids unsupervised? Especially at night? How old are your kids? Boys? Girls? Who takes care of the kids when she is out with OM? I have a point here but would need to know the answer to these first.<p>
Ammon? just a quick comment to you?<p>During my previous marriage I moved out with our son. The judge made me return our son to the family home? so in essence I had moved out and the judge was not looking at me very favorably. I was the bad guy in her eyes, even though my H was physically abusive and having affairs. She would rather return our son to a physically and emotionally abusive man then let him stay with the parent who moved out of the 'family home'. It was clear that I was about to loose my son.<p>So I moved back in with my H. As long as you are both still married you have as much right to the family home as she does. When it dawned on my H that I'd moved back and was not just there as his free baby sitter, I told him what me new rules were. "This is my 'family home'. I will not be chased away by your bad behavior or separated from my child because you have a nastier lawyer then I do. So I'm here to stay. I will not be a victim in my own home. You can leave if you if you do not like living with me. It took me another 4 years before he would allow me to leave with my son and my possessions. To me it was worth every day I stayed?. Because my son had me there to protect him from his father's wrath and abuses. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. I learned to be emotionally stable in an unstable situation.

To Ammon - I don't know your details, but if you've already moved out, move back in. She can't stop you unless some legal separation has already been secured that says you won't. You've had time to "think" and you want your family and your home. You can regain your position almost without skipping a beat. I'll bet your kids will welcome you. You've done your "duty" for the relationship and now it's time to get to work on it.<p>Oh, she doesn't think it's time?<p>OK, then it's her turn to live apart. It's time for her to do her "duty."<p>Yep, throw her right into the arms of OM - exactly what she needs.<p>WAT<p>[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: worthatry ]</p>

lhs,<p>zorweb makes some very good points. I guess that's what I was saying about every situation being different. I'm so glad I don't find myself in a bad scenario. I also remember questioning my W's parenting ability at that point in time. I think it had more to do with the pain I was in. I guess I finally saw that even with the mess she was in she's always loved our kids and they were probably the only thing that she really had. I didn't want to take that away from her. <p>I can remember talking to my mom about how painful spliting up time with the kids would be. She gave me some pretty good advice. She basically said that the kids will gravitate to the parent that is the most stable and loving. I really think she is right. I guess you could even think of it as a competition. Guess who the real winners of that are?<p>I hope you find your answers and maybe patience is the best thing right now. <p>
who

Loveherstill-<p>This is a great topic. It really made me think back on what I've done so far and how thankful I am that I'm the one that stayed.<p>I guess it would depend a lot on your financial situation. If you both worked and made roughly the same amount of salary, then there is no question that the WS should be the one to move out. Thankfully, my WW never even questioned it and now when I look back on it I sometimes wonder why. I guess it could have been the guilt she felt at the time. But for whatever reason, we had to re-fi our mortgage which was half paid off into a longer term so I could afford the monthly payments. So in my case, my WW is no longer contibuting financially to this house. If push came to shove in court, my lawyer could have a field day on this.<p>You can also bet that when tax filing time comes around, she is still going to want to list us as married filing jointly since this saves the most amount of money. After all, we can deduct all that mortgage interest that I have been paying in 2001.<p>Ammon-<p>Dave is correct. If you have moved out, I would seriously consider moving back in. I also have two daughters who didn't understand things at first and probably never would have if I was the one to leave. As time goes on, it has definitely been in my favor. Time is one of the best things I have on my side as the months have rolled by. I have told my daughters and extended family of my W's affair and the fact that I am still home makes more sense to them. The longer she goes on denying things and telling her daughters that she will never move back, the more it hurts her position.

worthatry --<p>Thanks again very much for your suggestions. I moved out on November 11 and have spent the entire time since wondering if I did the smart thing. It certainly has never felt right but it did accomplish the goal of decreased daily tension. However, it put in place of that tension my own uncomfortable living arrangements (I live in room now) and suddenly being completely on my own again after being married for 18 years. I can do it, I guess, I just don't want to do it.<p>I would love to believe that I could "regain my position almost without skipping a beat." I'm almost tempted to test that theory. She's made it clear numerous times during my absence that I'm not welcome to continue living in the home. Unfortunately, I don't trust that the OM is out of the picture and her insistence on these living arrangements (me out of the picture) doesn't help my trust issues at all. Things would be a lot more difficult for her and for any A if I were back home. <p>I can't believe that I'm saying all of these manipulative and sad things about my wife--but, then again, she certainly wasn't acting like my wife all summer.
Ammon<p>
zorweb -- <p>Thanks also for your insights and for sharing part of your story. You took a good and strong stand to move back in and deal with things close-up. <p>I love your statement: "I learned to be emotionally stable in an unstable situation." Things were tremendously unstable in our home for about three months before I left. It's seemed to be a sound decision at the time but that was about two months ago (including planning time) and time and discomfort have softened my position a good deal. Also, words of encouragement from you and others have helped me to see that maybe it wasn't such a smart idea after all. At least it's an idea that needs rethinking and maybe revision.
Ammon<p>
Always Hopeful --<p>Thanks also for your words. I am considering moving back in, thanks to the advice and considerations brought up by all of you.<p>Nice to hear that you too have daughters and that your relationship with them is so strong and good. I am concerned by your statement that they "probably never would have [understood] if I was the one to leave." I hope that's not the case with my girls but I know they are greatly affected by this splintering and crippling of our family. Do they actually blame me or find me at fault for leaving? I guess it's possible...<p>This is the hardest thing I've ever gone through in my life yet I know from reading this BB that there are those who have it harder. What we do to each other and the pain we cause our loved ones ...amazing!
Ammon

Ammon-<p>I wouldn't worry about it too much if you can move back in soon. You didn't mention how old your daughters were, but give them some credit. Mine are 10 and 15 and are a lot smarter than my WW thinks. They can tell who wants to work on the relationship and who doesn't. Again, you have that advantage of time as long as you are able to hold out. Inaction on my wife's part has seemed to work against her lately. The kids have often told me that they feel Mom has everybody's life on hold for now and their attitude towards the whole situation is that they blame her.<p>[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: Always Hopeful ]</p>

Always Hopeful --<p>My daughters are 17 and 15; my oldest is a senior in HS. I know they're a lot smarter and more perceptive than I give them credit for but, with her in the home with them, I feel very much an outsider--a visitor--without nearly as much influence or input. <p>I know the oldest knows about the W's A but I don't think the younger one does yet. It something none of us are proud of so I've not felt like sharing that information with anybody. It's possible, maybe probably, that the 15-year-old knows but I have this feeling in the back of my mind that things have somehow been rationalized or justified in both their minds. Perhaps not, but it's a lingering feeling for me. Should I sit down with her (the younger one) and discuss it? I know she'll be very hurt by it as the older one was when she learned: her "mom" had stepped off the path. <p>Am I really going to be a better and stronger and wiser person when this all gets worked through?<p>Ammon

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Ammon:
<strong>
Am I really going to be a better and stronger and wiser person when this all gets worked through?
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>ABSOLUTELY!!!!!!!!!<p>WAT<p>[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: worthatry ]</p>

Ammon-<p>Ditto on what WAT said. It does get better.<p>Do yourself a favor and get some counseling on your own. Steve Harley is great and has helped me out tremendously. Although there are no guarantees on the final outcome, he can help improve your chances for recovery.<p>Hang in there...