I'm not sure how many of you recognize me or not, but I have posted with my BF recently to discuss what we've been going through. I am a WS (or a WGF, I guess). I fear that my relationship with my BF is going to be over soon - there was just too much for him to deal with and I wasn't the one that ended up telling him the ugly story and it came at a time when he really believed in our relationship and was going to "pop the question". I am so sorry about everything that I did, and I know that I can never change those things, but I would do anything to try to start over with him. I think that my days are drawing short, and the one question that I have is "how do I truly show him that I'm sorry"? I try to tell him alot and try to bring up the relationship when I can to tell him things that he doesn't know (which I know I don't do enough of), but I don't know what else to do. He says that sometimes he just doesn't think that I'm sorry and I somehow think that if I could do that the right way, we would have a chance. I know I really don't have much of a right asking you guys for help, but I'm at my wit's end and I can't imagine my life without him...(I know - I should have thought of that before all this happened). If anybody has any ideas, I would really appreciate it...

1-write an apology letter, put your entire self on it, abstain from ugly details, only give those away upon request.<p>2-make him feel special, yes men do like to be treated like the catch of a lifetime too. Find new things new special things to do with him, anything romantic or beautiful will do, something meaningful, just tell him "I never have done this before, and I am glad I am sharing this with the man I love over anything, anybody else".<p>3-Try to make him understand how truly sorry you are, I know, you are trying already, but in the mist of the newly found A it is very difficult for some BS to believe a word the WS says, we just think "Yeah whatever, you lied once you'll lie again, you cheated me once, shame on you, cheat me twice, shame on me". This is a deffense mechanism, and he is entitled to it, so you need to learn to get through and show him your love for him is stronger than anybody else. We all are human, we all are entitled to our huge mistakes, granted this one was gargantuan, but if you don't try to fix it, how you know it wasnt worth it?<p>4-Do you think you are in the same place he was before he found about the A? Would you say yes if he popped the question? I know this may sound weird but... would you pop him the question?. <p>5-Hold him, tell him about your feelings, how you love him, how you cant do without him, how you did the worse mistake you could imagine, how you wish you could turn back the hands of time, how you want HIM and only HIM, how you CHOOSE him (we BS like to feel special and that we were chosen, not only because the WS was stuck with us you know? who wants that anyways?).<p>I can't think of more right now, will try more later.

Hello somegirl,<p>From a review of your and SG's posts, it seems like you do really love each other. You have been reading about relationships and surviving an A. Both of you are hurting over the A for which you are extremely remorseful.<p>What is SG telling you now that the holidays are over?<p>You cannot rush SG. He has to work through his feelings at his own pace. Continue Plan A, but don't cling and don't grovle. He says he can't imagine not having you in his life, and he says that he knows you love him. That is great reason to hope. Be patient, loving, and independent. Help him to believe your sincerity by your actions as much as your words. Give him time. Respect his hurt. Forgive yourself.<p>Get back to us on his current mindset.<p>Wishing healing for your relationship.
Estes

Hi somegirl - I'm a guy, so perhaps I carry some weight here? [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I suggest you be yourself and not pressure him.<p>I can feel your sincereity, so I suspect he can as well. Just don't over-do it.<p>Set the stage for a life long policy of radical honesty.<p>If you really believe it, tell him you screwed up, you've learned your lesson, and you're now prepared for a lifetime of committment. You might add that this is EXACTLY why a "full" courtship is advantageous. Sorta like a test drive, ya gotta know what you're getting in to and you've learned a hard lesson. Everything is now out in the open and you've bared your soul.<p>Once you've laid out your soul, don't pester him. Take it from this guy. Don't be needy and begging, OK?<p>Good luck.

Check out http://www.ethicalculture.org/aeuves/forgive.html for some ideas

I don't think somegirl would mind if I posted in her thread.<p>Is she sorry? Yes, I believe she is. But I am pretty sure that she is much more sorry because I found out. <p>I agree this is exactly why we had a "full" courtship.<p>If I never found out, we would be engaged now.. is that right?! Propose to someone that cannot even be faithful and honest with me? <p>Now I know that I have alot of anger, and people say that I wasn't meeting her emotional needs. Well, why did she suddenly end it with her 'other man' and come back to me? Because I started meeting them unknowingly? I'm not perfect, and never claimed to be. But there is something more to this. <p>She has emotional problems, self-esteem issues that I knew about and tried to help her with. We just never knew the extent of the problems.<p>It kinda reminds me of the last verse in the old Eagles song 'Lying Eyes':
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>She wonders how it ever got this crazy
She thinks about a boy she knew in school
Did she get tired or did she just get lazy
She’s so far gone she feels just like a fool<p>My, oh my, you sure know how to arrange things
You set it up so well, so carefully
Ain’t it funny how your new life didn’t change things
You’re still the same old girl you used to be.<hr></blockquote><p>We are now spending time apart and will see what happens. I would love for none of these things to have happened. There would be no question, and we would be happy. Thankfully she started therapy as soon as I found out, she knew she had problems too, but was afraid I would think something was up if she started counseling before I knew. She is working on herself... reading alot and putting forth the effort to make herself a better person and hopefully someone that she can be happy with. We are going to see a marriage counselor for some guidance.<p>It is devastating and I feel sorry for anyone that has to endure this pain from the one person that loves them most. It becomes a catch 22 when that person comes back and says that the affair was all a mistake. <p>Do I love her? Yes and I cannot imagine my life without her. But now I am not sure of the person that I have fallen in love with. A liar? A cheat? This will take time to sort out.

someguy <p>I can understand how both of you feel. Your relationship has fallen apart at the seams.<p>Your relationship is hardly a new one. Together 4.5 years. Living together for 3. If she had been cheating from the day you met then it would be clearer that her affairs had nothing to do with unmet needs. But with the length of time the two of you were together, it’s pretty clear that both of you were responsible for the state of your relationship. Somegirl is, of course, solely responsible for choosing to have the affair.<p>It is very fool harty to just summarily say that having EN’s not met could not have caused Somegal to have an affair. There is something. In our case, since my H was doing it prior to our engagement and never stopped, it’s very hard to see where I could have contributed. But we did still learn a lot by dissecting our relationship… I was ignoring signals.. Trusting too much. He was not talking to me about his needs… he never even gave me a chance to meet some of his needs. I was too ditzy to even realize this (yes even this is a fault.) So some of his needs were not being filled. One thing we learned from this introspection is that radical honesty and no privacy are things we both have to work at. Another thing we learned is that we got involved too soon after his divorce. He had not truly recovered. He has a very bad habit of closing off emotionally and not sharing his pain. It seems that he was doing something a lot of newly divorced people do. They turn into ‘sluts’ (both male and females) and try to scr***w their way to recovery. It just happened that he met me at the same time and feel for me too. So he had EN’s that he needed to address… hurts that had nothing to do with me. He was handling them in a very unhealthy manner. There is something in your relationship that needed improvement. The affair is not the only problem you have, it is the symptom, not the problem. If you are both not willing to look deep within yourselves and share this, your relationship will never work. It takes both partners to pull this off.<p>I can tell that you, someguy, are having a hard time understanding how someone who says she loves you could have done this. Most BS’s (or BBF’s) do. You are also don’t know if you could ever trust her again. This is understandable.<p>Someguy, I know your pain as I’ve lived it too many times. There are some things I have learned that I would like to share with you.<p>Love is not the ultimate protector…… <p>That is why the marriage vows say “for better or worse, for richer or poorer, and in sickness and health (or something like that).“ The vows mean that you take the good times with the inevitable bad times. We all home that an affair will never be part of the bad times. But 45% of all men and women will end up having an affair some time during their marriage (or other long term relationship). I can also guarantee that you can never predict with 100% accuracy that any one person will not have an affair. I have learned that love does not protect us from much. As a matter of fact it makes us more vulnerable. That is why it is hard to openly and unconditionally love someone. If we love them, we open our hearts and souls to the possibility of all sorts of terrible possibilities. Affairs are only one of those things. Unmet EN’s are another. There are dozens of other horrible things that can befall a couple. An affair is by far one of the worst, if not the worst. Yet one of the very first posts I read here was written by a very wise woman. I wish I could recall who she was. She said that when she thought of all the horrible things that could happen to her and her family, she was thankful it was an affair. She shuttered to think of what else might have happened. <p>My H’s affairs were more painful then the still birth of my twin daughters. But I have lived through the pain. We are well into recovery. Our lives and love is so much richer now because of the affairs…. Why? Because we no longer live our love blindly.. It is a conscious decision we make every minute of every day. At the time, I thought our pre-d-day relationship was wonderful. But now that I have a much more cognizant, better and fuller relationship I would not go back to the pre-affair relationship even if it meant erasing the affairs. Oh you can bet I wish I could erase the memories of the affairs. But I would never give up my new found awareness, growth and depth of love. Another thing that has come to mind as I write this is that if I had a choice of erasing the affairs or having by twins here with me, I’d pick my twins. I can survive the aftermath of the affairs. The twins, who I wanted so very much, did not survive. This would be my choice, even though the discovery of the affairs was more painful then my twins’ death. <p>I would be wonderful if everyone would learn and live by the MB principles of care, concern, protection and time. But most of us never have a good idea of exactly what we are supposed to do to hold a relationship together. We just muddle along until it falls apart at the seams. It does not mean we are bad people, it just means that relationships are very hard.<p>Love does not protect from harm. It is open communications and filling each others EN’s. The MB concepts are a wonderful framework to follow for this.<p>Mistakes, poor choices, lying and trusting……<p>I remember those feelings of how could I ever trust my husband (STL) again. They are not easy to get over. In the first two weeks after d-day the thought was on my mind constantly. My h was not coming forth with info very readily. It was obvious that he was scared to death that I would find out about all of it and leave. He was basically weaseling all over the place. So of course I said to my self…. He’s a lier, how could I ever trust him again. <p>Then a bolt of lightening struck me. He was lying because he did not feel safe with me any longer. He felt that he could not trust me. And why should he automatically trust me with his vulnerability after what he had done? Many people would respond with revenge and judgment. And reset assured that in the first two weeks after d-day I was seeping in pain, self pity and the desire to hurt him back. There were a few occasions where I love busted all over the place, called him every name in the book. And a few times I threw some very ugly things at him… things like “OK I’m going to get on the internet and meet a 20-30 guys to scr***w. Then I’ll ask you how you feel about that.” It dawned on me that we were in a catch 22. Neither of us felt we could trust the other for very good reasons. With this realization a calm settled over me that has stayed with me since. I realize something very important and I shared this with him.<p>I told him that I realize that we all have problems and none of us are perfect. We all make mistakes and bad choices in our lives. I am not going to chastise you for what you've done. I do love you and want to help you over come this problem so that we can have a happy life together.<p>I also told him, every time he lied or waffled after that… Every time you tell me a lie with the intent to protect me what you are really doing is just proving further that you are not trust worthy. Even if I don’t know at that moment that it is a lie I will find out. A lie, no matter it’s intent, is still nothing more then a lie. Please tell me the truth all the time. If you do not want to tell me something, then just say that. Don’t make up a lie about it. I can handle the truth no matter how ugly. I cannot handle a lie, no matter how flowery. <p>After repeating these to him over and over for two or three weeks he got the idea that it was safe to open up to me. . <p>After telling him this I had to live by it every day to prove to him that I was not going to use his honesty as a way to get info to hurt him. Over the next few weeks he learned to trust me. And the most wonderful thing happened. My H opened up to me and told me that he caused the pain and is responsible for helping me heal. And since then he has been the one who has, in many ways lead us through our recovery. Sure there were a few times when he told me things that got me upset and made me cry. But that was honest expression of my feelings. He would hold me and sooth me.<p>Though STL was reluctant to burden me with his own pain and shame over his affairs, I made sure I supported him through this too. He is a man who was betrayed by his two previous wives. Both of them left him for their OM’en. He knew darn well what it was like to be the BS. He told me that in his previous marriage, he was very self-righteous about his wife’s affair…. “You have defiled our marriage vows. How could you do this.” and on and on. He is a religious man who believed he could never do such a thing. He says that he thinks that his affairs were the good Lord’s way of making him eat humble pie and crows feet. Not a very pleasant meal. That he has done something that he thought he is incapable of has seriously shaken his self faith. It is a struggle for him to live with what he did… even now almost 11 months later. He says that being the WS is much harder for him then being the BS ever was. And his sister tells me that he was an absolute basket case for at least a year after his first wife left him.<p>Though all of this, STL became the source of both my pain and my comfort. We ended up spending hours a day for the first 3.5 months talking and holding each other through the first phase of our recovery. We became closer then before. We are truly each other’s confidants now. We have learned that either of us can say anything and share anything with the other and we are safe. <p>Watching him take responsibility for his actions and his being loving and supportive of me through all of this I came to realize that he truly was the wonderful man I thought I he was when I married him. For many reasons he had fallen from grace with himself and behaved in a manner inconsistent with everything he believes in and has lived. We are working together to heal both of our issues and our marital issues.<p>In sickness and in health….<p>This is where marriage differs from living together. It is a much greater commitment. In sickness and in health… I realized that what he had gone through was a sickness. After some thought, I decided that I had to give STL and our marriage one chance. I realized that because I married him for all the right reasons and with the intent of staying married till the day I die, I could not just walk away. I realized that I love him more then I ever imagined, that I was going to hurt if I stayed with him or if I left him. I realized that if I left him at that point, I would always wonder if there could have been a chance, if he really loved me as he said he did, who he really was… and I would always miss him despite what he had done. If I stayed with him and gave us this one chance then maybe, just maybe Dr. Harely was right and we could create a happy, healthy marriage out of the ashes that were left. And I <p>A doomed marriage……<p>About 3-4 months after d-day a bolt of lightening hit me. Our relationship and marriage was doomed from the very first day. We were just two fools who loved each other and were willing to try at it one more time. We both say that if this marriage does not work out, 3 is a charm and the last one. Neither of us really had a clue of how to build a healthy marriage. And least you think we are unusual… somewhere between 60-70% of all marriages have affairs and 50% of all marriages end in divorce. In the ‘good old days’ people stayed together because they had no choice, it was not because they knew how to have better relationships. They put up with all sorts of garbage because divorce was not acceptable.. Period. Most of us have never had a good role model for healthy relationships. We all have seen plenty of role models of people just muddling through. We both realized that our marriage had been doomed from the day we met. That we both new that marriage was hard work. But neither of us knew what work we were supposed to be doing. <p>When I realized that we would have ended in divorce anyway it was like a cold shower. Love alone does not a good marriage make. But the affairs forced us to look for solutions. What we found was MB and some other resources. We have both grown so much in the last 11 months. I do not think either of us is the same person we were only a year ago. Even our children have benefited from our living the MB principles. We use them as the basic rules of our household now. <p>We have both been married twice before and those marriages were terrible. And strangely enough there are incredible parallels between each of our marriages. Our first marriages involved people who into drug, cheated and eventually left with no word. His first marriage lasted one year. Mine lasted about 4. Our second marriages lasted for 14 years, our spouses cheated, we were each the breadwinners, and our spouses left us for another life style.<p>
I have no idea where the insight, love and patience came from for me to handle all of this.. But I do truly feel blessed. <p>I feel for the pain both of you are in and hope you find a path that will allow you both to resolve this and have a happy life together.<p>Just my 2 cents.

This morning is my first morning without Someguy (SG). It's amazing that I can miss somebody so much. I know that this time apart could be really good for both of us. What I dream will happen will be that I can really focus on myself and my problems and really make a dent in making myself healthy. If SG sees me better, maybe he will be able to put more trust into me and our relationship. <p>I know that I am totally selfish for wanting SG back into my life. (Being an only child, selfishness has always been a problem for me and I believe it was one of the contributing factors of my A.) But I can't help but believe/hope that we could be so happy together - I know the kind of person that I want so desperately to be and I know that I can make SG happy. And I know that SG can fulfill my ENs and make me happy, also. I don't want to be the same scared, timid, needy girl that I was before. I want to be able to openly and honestly address my feelings with SG and share with him my opinions and desires.<p>I've never seen SG so hurt...in fact, I don't think I ever thought I could see him so hurt and disappointed. These past few months have really opened my eyes to alot of parts of SG that I had never seen before (or had never allowed myself to see). Oh how I would turn back the hands of time and do everything differently so that I would never have to see him hurt like this and he would never have to feel this pain.<p>I'm worried that time apart will be the end of our relationship, but I have to keep reminding myself that I effectively ended our relationship when I started my A. The time that I have shared with SG since then (both before and after he found out) has been a gift, and I am very grateful for that. <p>I am no longer the sweet, innocent girl that SG once saw me as, and I feel as though any girl that he could end up with could give him that while I will always be the girl that cheated on him. Is it too much to ask him to stay with me now? I just can't help it - I want him in my life so badly. I know the woman that I want to be for him...and for myself...the kind of woman that we can both be proud of.<p>Thanks for your comments everybody - it's very reassuring to know that there are others out there feeling the same way. As a WGF, I just want to say that I appreciate the kind words and thoughts.

zorweb...can you adopt me? I'm sure my Mom would understand [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]

TowardsTheFuture,<p>I'm sorry but I'm dense as a brick.. Sure I'll adopt you, but why? I'm a grouchy old hoot.

LOL cause you're "kewl" [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

ah blush..... Thanks..... [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

some girl,
forgive my interjecting in your post but something struck me as i read both your comments and the comments of some guy.<p>it sounds to me as if some guy feels that your repentance has something to do with a) being found out, and b) him being the second choice or the alternative selection to the guy you had the fling with. <p>it sounds like he believes that there is something that happend between you and the OM which hastend the break up; other then him finding out. as though it was not ended by your choice and that you had hoped for that relationship to continue and to eventually be the one that ended in marriage; as opposed to the one you have with someboy. not very well expressed i know so please forgive me.<p>my point is that in relationships the BS, upon the return of the WS, often feels like they are second choice. the choice that is better then no choice at all...but just bearly! LOL if you are really sincere this may be an area that you could explore communicating about with him.<p>make him understand what really happend during the breakup of your affair. go over it step by step, moment by moment...give him the whys and wherefores of the events leading up to, during and after. tell it all! maybe then he will feel secure enough to believe in you. Oh and one more thing! tell him if you ever planned to let him no the truth of about the affair...before the marriage! if so say so and why. if not cop to that as well. <p>if you want the relationship it's truth time big time. don't leave your best play on the field! go for it!<p>poodlepapa

As weird as this may seem, I have always wanted Someguy to be the one that I ended up with. My A started at a time when SG and I had some definite relationship problems (of which I caused) and I just stopped working through them (if I ever had been). SG doesn't believe that he was the one that I wanted the whole time that I had the A (if so, then why would I have an A to begin with and not stay home and work on the relationship?), but I always wanted my future to be with him. <p>I ended the A because I had been wanting to end it for some time, but I was waiting for the OM to end it instead of doing it myself (there were definite issues regarding whether the OM would tell SG, which eventually happened, and also issues regarding my ability to say "no" and end it for good (and those are big issues for me to deal with in every aspect of my life)). So many things were happening in my life - a new house with SG; serious talk of marriage; evidence that the OM would never let me go on his own accord - that I finally found the strength and courage to tell him "enough is enough". <p>I don't know if I ever would have told SG about the A. I had always thought that if I could just get out of it, I knew that it would never happen again and I would make SG so happy that I wouldn't ever have to tell him. I was planning on going to therapy after the A, and I assume the therapist would have told me to come clean if I wanted a real relationship with SG (although he believes that wouldn't have happened), but I still don't know if I would have told. We were doing so good at the time - I just couldn't bring myself to say anything. SG has since told me that "there is never a good time to tell someone bad news", so you should just do it and get it over with. I wish I had, so long ago!!!! Now I don't know if I can ever get that trust that SG had for me back, and I can definitely understand his reluctance. <p>Thanks for the advice...