Kev and Jill,
Hope this finds you well. Not sure if I missed any updates or you have not been here. I am praying for you guys and hoping that things are working out for BOTH of you. If you have the time, we'd love an update...
Bill and Weez<p>[ January 03, 2002: Message edited by: Mrs WLD ]</p>

MW,<p>I haven't posted an update since the day after Christmas, so I doubt you've missed anything.<p>I've been kicking around the idea of giving an update, but I'm a little apprehensive because I'm not sure I'll like some of the responses I'll get.<p>I have a session with Steve this afternoon to talk about the current situation, but I'm not sure he'll tell me what I want to hear. <p>Well, here goes. We've reached a crossroads of sorts. W called me yesterday just before I walked away from my desk for lunch and told me she wanted to talk to me about moving back in.... specifically, she wants to. My heart went from terror when she said she needed to talk, to pure elation when she said that she wants to move in.<p>But then that elation was tempered some by what she told me are her reasons. She said that she "has no other real choice," That she's "curious," that "any relationship with OM won't be legitimate until we figure out what's going on with our marriage," and that if our marriage were to work, then the other relationship wouldn't matter (or something to that effect). I told her that what I WISHED she'd said was that she loves me and wants our marriage to work.<p>She came and picked me up for lunch and we talked about it.<p>She's incredibly resistent to a "no contact" letter, but there are extenuating circumstances that I DO understand. Though, not all of her resistence is due to those, some of it has to do, I'm sure, with not wanting to make any sort of FINAL breaks there. At one point she asked me what would be the problem with her going back to him if we don't work out. I told her that if she walks out my door, and right into his door, then her effort with me wasn't true.<p>I told her that now I'M the one who's confused. I don't want to be hurt like this again. We've discussed false recoveries in the past several weeks and agree that neither of us wants to or can bear that pain.<p>I know that much of the MB doctrine says that unless a letter is written, there can be no recovery (or something like that), but I also realize that the MB principles are mere guidelines. They need to be adjusted, and interpreted for each individual situation because we're not just "cookie cutter" people.<p>I can TOTALLY argue from either side of this issue, and truly don't know what the right choice is (there may be no right or wrong choice).<p>W said that she can't see how anyone can write a "no contact" letter. I said that when they're at the point of WANTING to work on the marriage, of understanding the wrong in the choices they've made, then the letter writing becomes much easier. We both said that maybe that means it's too soon, we just don't know.<p>The only other alternative would be to either just get a DV (that's out as far as I'm concerned), or to continue pretty much as we have (neither of us wants that). <p>I can see the pain that this is causing her, and I truly wish there were something I could do to help her. I love her so much and would do nearly anything for her. I truly believe her heart is in the right place. I don't think she's the type of person who would "play" me (or anyone) like this (granted, she had an A - but so did I, and I did some terrible things to bring her to the point of her decision- we are NOT bad people, just imperfect and prone to bad decisions).<p>I guess we just have different views of the moving back home issue. She wants to because she's curious as to whether or not the changes that I've made are true and permanent, and because she wants to SEE if we can get along and she can redevelop feelings for me. While my idea is that she'll come home when she's ready to fully commit to our marriage.<p>I guess if she moved back in right now, I'd have to change my expectations some, it'd be more like Plan A'ing while she's still in the home, rather than with a separation.<p>I think she alluded to the fact that she'd have no contact, just wouldn't write the letter. She said he won't wait around (I do doubt that somehow- if he really loves her), and that he MEANS what he says.<p>I've seen so much improvement over the last month, if only we could see that much more in the NEXT month....<p>I want so much for her to come home, but I have to protect myself and my self respect. Now I'M the one on the fence! [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I hope God and Steve can convince me one way or the other. If any of you have a private line to HIM, tell him to drop me an email or something with instructions (I'm not all that good with subtle [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ).<p>Take care,
Kev<p>[ January 03, 2002: Message edited by: kevco- ]</p>

Kevco, hey man it's been a while since I posted and it never ceases to amaze me the similarities in our stories. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I need to do an update as a lot has happened. Maybe I'll get to that today.<p>I think where you're heading is where I've been the last couple of months. I moved back in with no promises and no expectations. It's been tough and there's been days that I wondered if i came home too soon but it's been getting steadilly better.
I think being home and being able to Plan A and demonstrate what I'm doing for myself consistently made a huge difference. My W can see that I'm very serious about dealing with the depression and all the other issues. She's starting to believe that I'm not playing games and this is real. I believe the main reason for this is that she knows that I'd never be able to maintain the facade 24/7. <p>I suppose what I'm saying is that I'd do it. It scared the hell out of me when we hit that point. My W crawled into bed one night and asked me just to hold her and all the reserve, my exit strategy and everything just melted away. Can you really protect yourself? I found that I really can't so I may as well commit full bore and just jump. It won't hurt any more or less and the odds of success are better. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Anyway, that's my $.02 [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] take care man.

Kev,<p>You said: <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I guess we just have different views of the moving back home issue. She wants to because she's curious as to whether or not the changes that I've made are true and permanent, and because she wants to SEE if we can get along and she can redevelop feelings for me. While my idea is that she'll come home when she's ready to fully commit to our marriage.<hr></blockquote><p>In a nutshell, her idea is right and your idea is not right. She should come one when she wants to "work" on the marriage. That means committing to "work" not committing to the marriage. She needs to see if you two can get along and that is an excellent reason for her to come home.<p>I don't think very many WS get an epiphany and decide that the marriage will work while separated. It takes work and a willingness to work and see if the marriage can be rebuilt.<p>Now what is the work?? That is the issue you need to talk to SH about. You see giving you the benefit of the doubt and seeing the changes you have made as well as accepting them is the work.<p>It seems that she has agreed not to contact or be with the OM. She may view the no contact letter differently than you do. I believe Steve Harley can help you there as well. I suspect for the marriage to rebuild their needs to eventually be no contact. But, it is also true that the marriage stands the best chance when you two are together.<p>Hope this helps.<p>God Bless,<p>JL<p>[ January 03, 2002: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</p>

Kevco--with a very, very exhaustive search, I was able to find God's personal email address on Google:<p>Jewish_Carpenter@pearly(Bill)_Gates.com<p>Hope that gives you a laugh [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Also, I think that her moving back in is a GOOD thing. If my memory serves me correctly from some of your earlier threads, you had some issues of your own that you needed to work on/Plan A. <p>If that's the case and you have worked on permanent and resolute change, she will see the new you. <p>I'm still a bit confused with the letter issue. The "extinuating circumstances" thing makes me wonder what you are willing to put in that category. My WS appears to be on the verge of moving back in and starting the healing process. I'm not sure how I would react if she were unwilling to write the letter if the A was TRUTHFULLY over. If it were, then she'd having nothing to lose and all to gain.<p>Good luck to you, man. Hey, you've got the Huskers on tonight too, assuming you are a 'ball fan.<p>Go Miami!! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>God Bless,<p>Guido

SF2G-
I agree, consistency is the point (I believe) of her curiosity. And it won't be a problem for me, because I'm committed, for life, to the changes I've made.<p>JL-
You're correct, I misspoke. What I meant to say was that I expect that she'd move back when she was committed to "work on" our marriage 100%. No promises, except the promise of no contact, and a fully heart felt effort to "work."<p>GB-
LMAO!! Thanks for that, I needed it. I'll try that email and see if He has anything good to say. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I don't want to get into detail about the "extenuating circumstances," but suffice it to say that I backed both of them into a corner shortly after DD and made them sign a contract regarding "no contact." Right idea, wrong approach, execution, and timing, equals MUCH RESENTMENT.<p>I told her the point of if the A (or relationship) were truly over, then writing the letter wouldn't seem so bad. We both agreed that MAYBE that means that it's too soon, maybe not.<p>And by the way, I AM a 'ball fan, but I'm from Kansas and so the ball is shaped more like a basketball (well, exactly actually). I don't mind the Huskers, though I liked them more BEFORE we moved to Nebraska and became "force fed" the coverage. But a win for them just brings more revenue to the Big 12 and helps the future of Jayhawk basketball.... GO HUSKERS! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Talked to Steve about this today, and he agrees that no contact should be a stipulation, but suggests that I give the idea serious thought because it's apparant that she's noticed the changes in me and her "curiosity" is a good thing (if, of course, the changes are real and permanent).<p>Several others who've been through this all before have been on the other side of the issue, and I do value their opinions too. We'll see.<p>Thank you all,
Kev

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I don't want to be hurt like this again. <hr></blockquote>
Oh my friend! I'm afraid you SOL on that one. You can't get anywhere unless you take the chance that you will be hurt again. That's something you need to work up to. I know it's scary, and I'm tellin ya, that second kick hurts like nothing you've ever known. But, the reward is worth the potential kick. This much I know! It's like the old saying..."Love like you've never been hurt." How? Hmmm. Try this on for size.<p>FOCUS ON WHAT YOU'VE ACCOMPLISHED FOR YOU!!!!! You love her, you want her home, you want to keep your family together! Damn straight. And well you should. But that's not entirely your call right now. You can only work on YOU. And you have. And you need to continue. If she moves back or moves out you still need to work on you. And the work you've done WILL PAY OFF no matter what she does. If you're constantly focused and worried about what she's going to do, you won't be able to face the treat of that second kick, of being hurt again. It's like sofar2go said, if all goes well, that fear will melt away. If not you'll have grown for something/someone else. Bummer, but you will have given it all you could, done your best and moved on.<p>The good news is, I think her moving back is great news! Have you done the EN and LB papers? If she'll participate, that's gonna be gold! Find out what her emotional needs are and make it your life's goal to be an absolute pro at meeting them. Plan Aing with her at home is going to be so much better that with her away.<p>Good luck. Keep loving her. Keep us informed!<p>Bill

Kev,
Thanks for the update! That is so good to hear!! I read your post and went to interrupt Bill bathing the girls to tell him. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]
Everyone who has responded is so right. Don't be afraid of the potential for pain. Work THROUGH it. The rewards will be so worth it! It will get easier. Easier to trust, love, be honest. Bill and I finally did the EN questionaire last night and he told me that he trusts me again. He isn't sure why he does, since I had given him every reason NOT to trust me, but he does. Since we entered recovery, it has been easier and easier to show him I can be trusted again.
I had to trust myself first though, that was the key. I had to LET myself see the changes Bill was making and that is what it sounds like Jill is doing. She wants to give herself the oppurtunity to trust herself again. She wants to, just needs a bit of encouragement in the form of "proof" (if you will.)
Bill said it right, it will be so much easier for you to plan A her while she is at home. I never left the house, simply moved into another bedroom. Even when we were moving forward and our D was almost final, he was still plan A'ing me. No angry outbursts, no major LB'ing. THAT, combined with the changes I saw, was how I could let myself trust me again. Trust myself that I do love this man enough to go through the HARD WORK of putting our marriage back together. I love myself enough to work that hard too! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]
Once again, I feel as though I may be babbling...maybe I shouldn't post after a LONG day at work! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] Glad to see things are looking up. We will keep praying and you keep working.<p>BTW, Guido, that was funnier than Sh*t!! VERY CUTE!!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

JustLearning,<p>Steve said something yesterday, and I had another image pop into my head when I was rereading this thread. You said:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I don't think very many WS get an epiphany and decide that the marriage will work while separated. It takes work and a willingness to work and see if the marriage can be rebuilt. <hr></blockquote><p>Steve explained that if the bridges are burnt (i.e. no contact letter, FINAL end of A, etc...) then the WS will be more committed (motivated?) to just make the marriage work. They won't have a proverbial Plan B waiting out there in the wings.<p>The image that just popped into my head comes from my 8th grade world history class (this has got to be the first thing I've ever gotten from that class). Anyway, the image is this: What did Coronado (I believe) do to motivate his men when they reached the new world (South America)? He burnt their ships. Now they were stuck here and had no other alternative but to put forth EVERY effort to make their new lives work.<p>That's kind of what I was hoping for as far as a committment goes from W; to burn the bridges or the ships to that other relationship. It would be a good faith sign to me, as well as work to remove that possibility from her mind. Make sense?<p>K<p>[ January 04, 2002: Message edited by: kevco- ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by kevco-:
<strong>
That's kind of what I was hoping for as far as a committment goes from W; to burn the bridges or the ships to that other relationship. It would be a good faith sigh to me, as well as work to remove that possibility from her mind. Make sense?<p></strong><hr></blockquote><p>kevco-<p>I'm just not sure that most WS are capable of what you desire. The OM has done nothing to cause love units to be withdrawn or to have his account closed so why should there be no contact? Does Steve see any progress in your WW? If she is still talking to Steve, I would take this as a positive sign and let the no-contact thing work itself out. If she is back home with you, maybe she needs more time to really see (believe in) the changes you have made. Remember, it is almost like starting to get to know each other all over again. Look how long it took from first meeting your W until you got married. You (we) are starting all over again. Yeah, it sucks.<p>Hope you have some fun this weekend. Maybe you can get some concessions on hankies that the 'husker' fans need this morning.<p>HoFS

HoFS-
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>...so why should there be no contact? <hr></blockquote>
You mean besides the fact that she's married?<p>I believe that ABSOLUTELY a WS should be capable of what I want. I'm not asking that she just turn on her LOVE for me, but rather make a CONCIOUS DECISION (THAT she has control over) to have no contact and truly try to make our marriage work.<p>That's exactly what I did at the end of my EA. I CHOSE to try to make the marriage work, and as such, I ended for all time the EA. I burned that bridge, eliminating that possibility and thereby removing that temptation. <p>I understand that it's difficult, but not impossible. It's all about choice.<p>I do agree that she needs to be reassured that my Plan A is a plan for life and not just the next couple of months. I have every intention of making that a reality.<p>About how long it took us to get married...well, that was 5 years, but we were in school and all. We were in love quite quickly (under 3 months). Actually, I was attracted to her at first sight; she just thought I was short. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Then when she was ready to give her attention to me, we progressed pretty quickly. I'd have to say it was the pinky holding during "Paris, Texas" (AWFUL MOVIE) [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] . Or maybe the playful growl I gave when she said she'd bite me [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] .<p>Later,
K