Background:
I was briefly (three-night stand) WS 5/00.
Day my husband found out about A, his 6-month EA went PA.
Do I need to tell you how horrible our marriage was?
I singularly worked on our marriage (counseling, doormat, etc.) for the next 9 months with no knowledge or suspicion of husband's A, til one day 11/00, he walked in and asked for a divorce. Blamed it all on my A.
I begged pleaded and LB'd for another couple of months. He moved out and brought his affair in the open 2/01
I started seeing someone, recently ended (I know this was a mistake for lots of reasons).
Never lost feeling for my husband and belief we should be together. With attorneys involved, could see no way to reconcile.
My H gave me a crack with a crying phone call 12/01, and I found MB next day.
Plan Aing my butt off.
Imminent relocation of OW (who left her husband 4/01) from 4-hours away, her to relinquish custody of D(12) and S(14); no job, no home, no money.
DV to be final soon
Time running out for me! and I am scared<p>(See "How long does the fog last" on A&B and if someone could tell me how to move this to background, I will.)<p>
I am doing my best Plan A so far. In 2-3 weeks of plan Aing, I now have permission/open invitation to phone him at his office or home any time I need to talk, he is confiding in me about OW, I am meeting his SF, he has told him parents he is thinking about reconciling, and he has acknowledged that we never really tried to work things out in our marriage, and that if we tried, he thinks it could be great. He thinks that even the kids are enough of a reason to try. I am meeting needs for friendship and support -- he asked me to write an article today for a newsletter from him. I am writing him love letters that he loves. However, he rejects our spending time together, especially alone, unless we stumble into it. <p>Here is the stumbling block: he says that he can't hurt OW because she hasn't done anything to him (!!!!!), and that she needs him (guess three kids and wife don't count !!!!!). He told me last night on the phone that when he sees her this weekend (he has to drive 8 hours to meet her and says he doesn't want to go), that he is going to try to tell her that her moving here does not simplify things. He has kid responsibilities and they come first. And, if he wants to spend time with me and the children, she has to be okay with that. (She hates me, and has accused Me of trying to sabotage their relationship). <p>
My biggest problem is not being critical of the OW. Note that this is a vent, but my H's biggest complaint was that I did not spend enough time with our children and worked too hard. (I sold my bs. in the last year and he knows how I have changed in that respect). Given that is what he thinks, how can he be thinking of moving in with someone who would give up custody of her children? Tell me how to respond when he brings this up.<p>My second biggest problem is I just ache for him to wake up, and I feel so impatient. When he talks with me and says he feels guilty and he feels trapped, and he knows how he feels about me, but this isn't the "timing isn't right for him" (and then takes me upstairs to make love), how do I respond to that? It is so hard not to make demands, especially when I feel the clock is ticking on her moving here. My counselor says that if she moves here and my divorce becomes final is that H's emotional makeup will not allow him to leave her, ever. (this will be his 3 M) <p>So what is yalls opinion on the whole sex thing? The hardest part is that I love him so. <p>And last question, I have been clear on taking responsibility for all of my mistakes, and trying to show him changes. He is now only further convinced that this whole thing is my fault. Will he later see some of his own mistakes?

I just went to his house to deliver my S stuffed animal and H got mad cause I rang the doorbell and he was on the phone with OW. He shook his head and would not answer the door. I went to my car and called him and he said that he was on the phone telling her that he wasn't coming to see her this weekend and he would call me back at my office -- worse, the cat came to the door -- her cat -- it is already LIVING THERE! I know that I am going to LB. Please someone read this and help me know what to say. I feel so angry, and I wish that all of these nice things that I am doing for him that he would show just one ounce of appreciation for!!!

Hi,<p>You have just found MB. Have you been able to review the basic concepts and read some of the books, his needs/her needs or surviving an affair? Also there is an emotional needs questionnaire in the basic concepts section that may shed some light on your situation. <p>Another suggestion is setting up a meeting for either yourself or both (better if it can be both) with Steve or Jennifer. Your H appears to be trying some. This is a good sign. Learn about plan A and put to use what you can. <p>Read up and then ask your questions. <p>Take Care,
L.

Orchid, I have read so much of everything on site, HNHN, ordered SAA and it will be here tomorrow. I have had 2 appts. with Steve Harley and my H has talked to him once as well.<p>I am trying and crying and all the while feeling more desperate b/c of the impending move-in. I feel like everytime something has happened, like, okay, I will declare my M over when he introduces her to my kids. Okay, I will declare my M over when she meets the parents. Okay, I will declare my M over when she moves here (and my counselor says that I should have No Contact -- Plan B when she does.) So I feel all this pressure. I feel like I am losing my mind. And I so don't want to lose my H forever.<p>Your story has been so inspiring to me. I have read many of your posts and redhat was responding to me for a while on my other post on Plan A/B, but not lately (I know he is having a real tough time). Just need some feedback. <p>How do I not criticize this other woman? Everytime I learn more about her, I am more astounded, and my mind just goes haywire. I know this is not about her, but about us. But he picked a woman that can in no way fulfill the needs that I was lacking in. I don't understand and have a hard time accepting. He baits me with comments about her, and I can't help myself. Please help me focus.

You vent here. You will learn not to let him bait you. Keep reading. If he is remorseful, you will know. If he is vengeful, you will know. <p>Think ahead and not behind. OW is out there in her own world and it does not include you. My advice? Don't allow yourself to but in on OW even it she is a psyco!!! I am not sure how bad a character the ow you are dealing with can be but be prepared for the worst then all else will be easier. Have you visited the doctor yet? Let them see if there is anything they can give you to help you cope with depression and anxiety attacks. Read up on the type of medication since some have more side affects than others. <p>Take care and keep posting.
L.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by isitpossible:
<strong>I went to my car and called him and he said that he was on the phone telling her that he wasn't coming to see her this weekend !!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>WAIT! Isn't this a real good sign? You know, I have been thinking since I read your post that your best bet is going to be to execute a damn good Plan A, because he currently feels more allegiance to the OW. You can change that with a good plan A and it sounds like you are already making inroads if he cancelled his trip this weekend. That is the MOST you can do - you aren't in a position to push or control him. You can't force him in any way and any attempt to do so will only push him away. <p>Nor do I agree with your C that it is OVER if the OW moves in. We have many instances here of WS coming back after having lived with the OP. It is not the end of the road by a long shot. And if she has no income, sources, etc, that would put an enormous pressure on him that would quickly bring him to reality.<p>Please just try and calm down - I know that is hard! But your BEST HOPE is to calmly and strategically execute a good Plan A and if you are not calm, you are subject to LB's, which will impede your progress.<p>P.S. Just out of curiosity, do you know how to contact her?

isitpossible,
I followed your posts and you are asking for gurantee and asking for quick fix. There are none. But you should know that MB is your best bet and like any other R method it requires work/pain. Moving in is not the end of the world, keep focusing on your plan A'ng. You had make a tremendous progress from 3 weeks ago. Get a med, you will be in this for a long haul. You have SH working on your M, from the source !.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by isitpossible:
<strong>I just went to his house to deliver my S stuffed animal and H got mad cause I rang the doorbell and he was on the phone with OW. He shook his head and would not answer the door. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Yeah, maybe he was not going to visit OW, but he didn't answer the door for you either!!! What is up with THAT? He doesn't want to discuss the state of the marriage, but he will happily USE you for sex????????? UGH!<p>I don't know, maybe I'm not the one to advise you here cuz I'd be on the verge of a big LB my darn self! [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] And I probably would have to be arrested for cruelty to animals...<p>I'm sorry, I'm sorry... Let's think about this. Your conscience seems to be bothering you about the sex because it appears that she is already sort of moving in. Right?<p>Wonder if he refused to let you in because a lot of her stuff is already there and it would ruin his chances to have any more sex with you???<p>Can you afford to phone Steve Harley for some immediate advice? I just read another post where he recommended going straight to Plan B and now, 7 months later, BS can effectively Plan A. Interesting, huh?<p>Look for SinkingFast's update, I think it might help you a lot! Good luck!<p>And, especially since OW is in the picture, you should not LB, but you already know it. He needs to see the best you, but probably with all your clothes ON! [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ January 04, 2002: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</p>

Dear Friends,
Thank you for your kind posts last night. I did calm down before he finally called me at my office about an hour and a half later. We talked for awhile on phone and I went over there for a while later. He said he didn't open the door because they were fighting and he didn't want me to hear. He also pointed out that he told me to call before I came (which I did not do). He did tell her that he was not coming down. When I got there last night, he also told me that he "laid it out" that if she moved here, he wasn't traveling every other weekend with her to see her kids, and that if I called and wanted him to do something with the kids he would likely do it and she would have to understand. She said that he wasn't putting her first, he said right, my kids come first. He also scathingly reported that she only wanted to work part-time (tues thru thursday). Note: she was fired from her receptionist job in her hometown for this affair -- taking along a married lover to company sponsored training trips. Probably not a real good reference for her. He said she got off the phone really angry. <p>Fast forward to this a.m. OWH calls me and says that OW called him at 3:00 AM crying, saying she needed to talk right then. He said no, not at 3:00 a.m. and she agreed and said it needed to be a long conversation with privacy. He thinks that she is going to say, you get the kids back on Monday morning, and when I leave, that's it. I'll be back every other weekend. He wanted to prepare me. <p>I calmed down a bit, and called H. We talked for awhile and then I asked him to promise me something. He said ok, what. I said if OW is moving here, and you all finally set a date then you would tell me right. He told me to hold and went to a private office, and started wanting to know why I was asking. I was evasive, and FINALLY HE started talking and said this generally. Though he did preface this by saying he had no obligation (!!!!) to tell me this. <p>He had given her a few weeks ago an invitation to move here. Last night he laid down some ground rules about kids/priorities/expectations. She was definitely not happy. (I LBd and said, so you are trying to make her mad so that she can be the bad guy and end things -- fortunately, he did not get mad.) He said he is doing some of these things to push some buttons, and speed up this process. (I of course did not ask what process). He said I can see how I would like to have my family back, but I have told you how I feel like I have some obligations here to her b/c of all she has done for me (I of course did not say, sleep with a married man, be a party to breaking up two families and leave her children). He said that this would make one of two things happen, she would get mad and leave or she would cling tighter. (I of course did not say ALA 3:00 a.m. phone call to her ex so she can "rid" herself of children and be here ASAP.) He said they were to talk late this afternoon. <p>My bet is on OW in town on Monday for good. Okay, Melody Lane, I agree it is not the end of the world. But trust me, she will not live for long in the house he is renting, he is in the process of finding a house, etc. etc. I just see them getting so much more entangled. I will try to do ONE DAY AT A TIME. And be calm. Yes, I do not how to contact her, but truthfully, even if things don't work out between us, if she ever knew about any of this, she would make it very difficult on H and his relationship with kids. Just out of curiousity, why do you ask? [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] <p>As far as my conscience hurting regarding sex, call me whatever, but he is still my husband, and she is still the OW. Its my emotions that are hurting because I can see how he is opening up to me, and I can see the beauty and he can't. I see sex as a double-edged sword. It was his #1 complaint before we sep., so I want to show him that this part of our relationship can be wonderful again. But I don't want to be the OW, and feeling cheap like we are sneaking around. Did any of you face the same situation and if so, how did you handle it?? [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] <p>RedHat, I am on a med. I am just now going to full dose. It is helping some. <p>When he makes disparaging remarks about OW, do I just say, I am so sorry, that sounds awful? Or do I change subject? When he asks me for opinion, what do I say. Please help me find the words! <p>Thank you all again.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>He makes disparaging remarks about OW, do I just say, I am so sorry, that sounds awful? Or do I change subject? When he asks me for opinion, what do I say. Please help me find the words! "<hr></blockquote><p>I would stay noncommittal when he runs her down because the last thing you want to do is make him feel defensive. Be his friend. I see her doing ALOT of lovebusting here and I also see some BIG TROUBLES on the horizon if she does move there. She will start feeling guilty as hell about leaving her kids and will take it out on him. That will probably lead to alot of fights. I just can't see thier relationship working out at all if they are already fighting even before she moves in. And she obviously is not happy that he plans on putting his kids FIRST [as he should!] so this will cause enormous resentment, especially when she tries to come between he and his children. There are so many pitfalls!<p>You are well on the right track here, isp, as long as you stick with a good Plan A so he has somewhere to run when the inevitable lovebusters start coming from the OW. And the reason I asked if you knew how to get ahold of her is because I wonder what she would do if she knew you were sleeping with him? I am not suggesting doing anything, it was just something that I was thinking about. <p>Also, I think it is GREAT that you are sleeping with him! He is your H, after all and this is ONE of his needs. I don't see it as using you, but as a tool to bring you closer together - hopefully AWAY from the OW eventually. I think you are doing just great. Don't get panicked and don't give up - things are coming along nicely.

isitpossible,
What did SH have to say about the A situation ?. I think your H's A is doom to die, it just a matter of time. Financial entanglement could be undone, focus on the end result. The question is how tough are you to hang in here ?. Also get OWH to MB so he could plan A'ng OW from the other side.

Well, the good news is that I probably lost my bet. OW's 3:00 a.m. phone call to her husband was to beg forgiveness and want to come home. So I guess she is scared that things are not going to workout with my H! That is good news. <p>Redhat, excellent idea about getting him on MB, BUT he isn't technosavvy and doesn't use a computer. He has been seeing someone, but not seriously. He seems like a great guy that probably just didn't pay his W enough attention. And she was very insecure. She had at least 2 other EAs (if not PAs) that he forgave. <p>I have spent two hours with him on the phone today and I need some direction. (I'm still desperate). <p>The day after 3AM call, they talked for more than an hour in her mother's bedroom and she begged him to let her come home NOW -- that night, let her move back in that day. She tried to get him to have sex with her. She said they could go to counseling, she loved him, she was sorry. He kept asking her why now? which of course, he had already talked to me and knew about her argument with my H. (Sometimes I really feel like I am in soap opera.) She says that she thought she was in love but now she sees she was wrong and that she wants her family back. Of course, we strongly doubt that she has told my H ANY of this (now this I would place a bet on). She told her H that she was NOT moving here. (I of course said, what about the f$##$ing cat!!!! I am not a cat person in case you can't tell. So I suppose OW will have to come and get it, along with her clothes.)<p>He told her that he needed time to think. She is calling him almost every hour from her cellphone. (I bet she isn't sharing her detailed billing with my H). <p>He thinks she is desperate and insincere and he is going to get hurt again. He doesn't want her if she is only "desperate," his pride has been really hurt. (particularly over the fact that my H likely paid for her to have a breast job 9 days after OW left him.) But by the end of our talks, he said that he would let her come home if she had her head on and she had a job. I know he would do it for his family, and I think MB would be great for him. I ordered 2 copies of SAA, with the intent of giving one to my husband, maybe I will mail to him? The gist of our phone conservations also included how bewildered and little angry that we both are at everything that we have lost in the last almost two years (1 when affair was hidden, and a year since they left us). If it wasn't before, now it is clear what a cheap and tawdry affair this is.<p>He needs help getting his relationship back on track, and I think underneath it all, he wants her back. He told her that there were things she could "do" if she really wanted him back, but he wouldn't say them out loud. Of course, they are to break up with my H, and get a job, and get herself together. I told him about a no-contact letter, but I feel awkward because I have such a self interest here, that maybe I cannot give him the direction he needs. Redhat, Rev, ScotP, if you all are listening, write some words of advice that I could print out and get to him. Help me help him.<p>Second, I have to ask: telling my H about this development is out, or not? OWH said that I could have my H call him. He is all for me telling my H. I just don't see how any good could come of me telling him. What should I do??? <p> [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] What if OWH called my H and told him? Not that I am sure he would do this of course. <p>I hope a few of you are home on a Saturday night!!

Good good good - it sounds like you are doing a good job of connecting with your husband.<p>Now, you must not lovebust! This generally means no talking about OW, or making ANY demands. <p>Let her do all the lovebusting! You just be your sweet self - and personally, while you are still learning to be patient - the way your husband and you are interacting is a safe starting point.<p>Make those changes in yourself - slow and steady - so they will last, okay? Otherwise you'll make temporary changes and you guys will back at the boat you were in at one point.<p>God Bless You!
TNT

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by isitpossible:
<strong>
Second, I have to ask: telling my H about this development is out, or not? OWH said that I could have my H call him. He is all for me telling my H. I just don't see how any good could come of me telling him. What should I do??? <p> [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] What if OWH called my H and told him? Not that I am sure he would do this of course. <p>!!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>ack! I wouldn't tell your H that you know all this and have been talking to the OWH. He will just get defensive and it would be a major LB in my opinion. The OWH needs to understand how damaging that would to your relationship. I opt for him calling your H and giving him the lowdown. Will he do it? It might also help things with his relationship and hurry thier breakup along.

isitpossible,
Please stay away from OWH ... you might done some damage on their M by sharing info. Get him to local library and read & post MB Forum, send him a copy of HNHN and SAA !. Do not let H know about OW's plan. It is LB'ed and also result of snooping is FYI, not for interfering A. Let OWH solve their M, you have enough on your own hand including your own OM !. Did you "really" have no contact already ?.

I am getting mixed messages here about talking to OWH. Redhat, do not worry, there is absolutely no weakness regarding him, as you have mentioned to me earlier. We have just commiserated over the difficulties of being single parents and so disgusted over lies, etc. I am having a hard time understanding why it is a bad idea to be "friends" (so to speak) with him. Please explain, and understand that I am not and will not argue over the shouldn't, just want to understand why. Husband knows that OWH talks with me. I never bring it up, though he sometimes asks what is going on.<p>I talked with OWH today and she says OW is still turning on the heat, called several times this a.m. to see if she could come home today (she is staying at her mother's house). He doesn't know where to turn for conversation, advice or a reality check. I told him to go to counseling and buy SAA. If he doesn't, I will mail him one of each. I do not want to hurt any M. If they can work it out, I think that is fine. I have told him that I am not a good person to give him advice b/c I cannot be objective and I do not have the best opinion of OW. Is anyone here suggesting NO CONTACT?<p>As far as my OM, there has been some contact. I had never told him ABSOLUTELY NO CONTACT. But that I could not be in a relationship with him. He showed up to help me get the garbage out one morning, b/c he knew I would forget. And brought over a bolt for my son's bed. Salt for my driveway. Stuff like that. My H knows about this. <p>My H has not brought up OW or their status. I have not asked. We were together last night and I spent the whole night for the first time. I invited him to come over this afternoon and he did. He just left, he had been over here for a couple of hours playing with me and the kids in the snow. I tried to get him to stay for dinner, but he said "No. We need to take baby steps." I have been trying to get him to go away with me for a weekend soon to somewhere warm. I brought it up again and for the first time, he sounded positive. <p>I am working on my patience and be loving, not angry outbursts. I have for a long time been working on having "fun" -- by this enjoying my life and my family more rather than worrying about the dishes. He sees this. These are real changes that have happened over the last year (even when I knew nothing of MB). <p>Last night we were talking as well as today. Here is my biggest question of this post. We are talking. He is saying that he thinks he wants to love me again. He acknowledges that we are "privately" working on things. He has not set down and said, I want to work on this M.
AND, big AND here, he talks about our current situation and the only thing he does is BLAME ME for my A, and openly says that the reason we are apart has little or nothing to do with his A. He says he asked me for a D b/c of my A -- which had been over for several months -- no contact. He says that even though he was involved with OW for more than a year in an EA/PA has nothing to do with the current situation. <p>Does that remorse and open statement of "I want to work on our M" ever come? Is that when I can say that we are in recovery? This is important to me -- that he at least be remorseful about all we have lost and accept his share of the responsibility. As I continue to apologize and say I am sorry, and I am so regretful, I think it only fuels his belief that he didn't do anything wrong. PLEASE SOMEONE COMMENT HERE so that I will not LB. <p>I know to most of you reading this, it sounds like I am getting ahead of myself. I am. But I just need to know. And, I promise, I am developing incredible patience and am taking each day as a gift and opportunity to Plan A. I do mess up and LB sometimes, but for the most part, I am making steady progress, particularly on MYSELF. I can really start to see how there will come a day where I will be strong enough to choose if this relationship will measure up to the kind of person that I have become.

isitpossible,
I am afraid that it runs to EA. You could handle it how about him (OWH) ?.<p>For OWH, yes, no contact. Now A is dying, let OW commit to MB principal, no contact and go to MB conseling or working on 4 rules of recovery.<p>Does that remorse and open statement of "I want to work on our M" ever come?
Stop on apologize on your A, show him the action. No Contact for your OM speaks the loudest. Don't expect WS to say remorse or even saying I want to work on M. Again action will speak the loudest. If H is willing to send no contact letter and start conseling w/ Steve then you are on the way to recovery. However A has to die before there is any chance of recovery.<p>Just a comment, I do not want to be your employee or report to you [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ...

Redhat -- <p>Are you suggesting I am demanding (and I would put a face of pretend shock here, if I could find one). If it is any reassurance, I realize that I have that tendency and reserve it for communications where I am anonymous -- LOL. But seriously, if you are implying that I am something other than demanding, please give me some feedback so that I can work on whatever else it is. <p>Okay will take you advice about OWH, but I can promise you that it is not an EA. If I never spoke to him again, I would not really notice. No emotional energy invested in that relationship -- not an EA, I am positive. <p>As far as OW and MB, please understand that my spirit of forgiveness is not yet able to extend to worry about her personal recovery or happiness. I have suggested it to her H, but I that is at far as it goes. Maybe with the grace of God I will get there one day, but not now. Today, I get to walk in to my office and here how one of my co-workers saw OW and my H and how the first thing he thought when he saw OW is "she looks like a prostitute" and I am not kidding. (plus she does.) and she was all over my H just like one. <p>H and I had lunch today. Went well. He voluntarily said that he is almost ready to commit to saying that he will send a no contact letter. He also told me that he was going to meet OW halfway to give her the cat, and ship her stuff home, so that he would not be alone with her. <p>Toughest part of conversation was him saying that if we were to agree to work on things that it would be hard on his ego. Meaning tough b/c he doesn't want to tell his friends when he has painted me to be the bad guy, and that he doesn't want to run into my OM. He says that it will be easier on me b/c I will never have to see the OW since she lives so far away. Any suggestions on what I say, if anything in response to that? <p>Redhat, in case I haven't said so lately, thank you for all of your help. I'll try harder not to be so demanding, even on this website. That goes for everyone else out there who has been supportive.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>... ...the first thing he thought when he saw OW is "she looks like a prostitute" and I am not kidding. (plus she does.) and she was all over my H just like one. </strong><hr></blockquote>
did you replay to Guido's post on OP ?.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>H and I had lunch today. Went well. He voluntarily said that he is almost ready to commit to saying that he will send a no contact letter. He also told me that he was going to meet OW halfway to give her the cat, and ship her stuff home, so that he would not be alone with her.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Talking about the fog. He could ship the cat too. Wait until all the stuff get send then beleive it. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>Toughest part of conversation was him saying that if we were to agree to work on things that it would be hard on his ego. Meaning tough b/c he doesn't want to tell his friends when he has painted me to be the bad guy, and that he doesn't want to run into my OM. He says that it will be easier on me b/c I will never have to see the OW since she lives so far away. Any suggestions on what I say, if anything in response to that? </strong><hr></blockquote>
Here you have to talk fogese to him. Tell him If they are a true freind they will understand. Don't response about OW, let it go. Get him to talk to Steve, tell him it is for helping his ego up ... LOL !!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] .