Since my younger son was home from Japan, WS has been here every day (Wondering what is happening with "little Missy" and what he is telling her about not being available to her). WS is making comments that he wants to come back....telling kids that he is working on getting back with me. He was very upset at Christmas and tried to come and visit, called here but couldn't stop crying. I did convince him that if he cried, it did not matter and maybe would be good for the kids to see. I said, "Please come over, your kids need you here." Fortunately, Older son and WS had their first reunion since April. That was my best Christmas present. Our younger son was the catalyst to pull us all together as a family.<p>I am afraid now-----I just got to a place of realizing my life is good....My life is easier and I am comfortable with myself. Not sure about my love for WS----Love Bank is empty even though he is trying to penetrate my wall of protection. I have spent the last 32 years of our marriage living my life through WS, seeing God and others through what I thought my WS thought of me....UGH so consequently, I never really felt loved or cared about by anyone. I now feel the love of others and God in a deeper and fulfilling way. My protective wall keeps me from appreciating WS good points. I withdraw and feel unappreciated by him whether he is acting loving or uncaring. I know we need conseling but I cannot image him agreeing to this. I cannot rebuild without professional help and do not know how to present couseling as something positive to WS, I think he thinks it will be a place where he is blamed for everything. He claims he cannot talk to anyone about his feelings. (yeah, right)<p>I also do not ever want to go through this again. I have healed beautifully and do not want to be reinjured. Not sure if I can heal again. Not sure if WS has experienced all he needs to make a lasting change. Like others here, he has a drinking problem but is a minimal drinker but drinks to numb his feelings (usually only on weekends) I would rather live a lonely single life than experience the pain of an A again. I cannot see how WS can break free of OW. I cannot see it as being possible. That is the scariest.
Had to get some of these thoughts out so that I can keep them from becoming too big.<p>I do not know what Step one is-----<p>Any advice is appreciated. <p>TW

You know, they always say that to enter a good relationship you have to first love yourself. I see a lot of you old relationship with your husband as similar to my relationship with my H.<p>I would suggest to take it slow. You have to decide what you want for your life....and even if that includes your husband...it will have to be a new marriage. <p>I think if I were in your shoes(which unfortunately, I am not) I would have to insist on counseling and marriage building. Never again will I go through this nightmare...ever. There would have to be a lot of change on both of our parts and how we relate to each other. Somehow, this time, he would have to prove that he is willing to commit to a relationship--not just me. <p>You sound so much stronger...and it is so easy to fall back into old routines and behaviors. We did that...and it didn't work.<p>I know this is a confusing time for you...just take it slow and figure out what you want. Pat

Oops...double post somehow!!<p>[ January 04, 2002: Message edited by: miserynmissouri ]</p>

Thanks, Misery, I appreciate the input. I am looking for food for thought and don't quite know where to turn. I have read and read and read but feel like I "know" alot but not sure how experientally this will work. Whenever I post, I do not seem to get much of a response. Not sure why so I tend not to post much. BUT when I have posted, the nuggets of wisdom were just what I needed.<p>I am a bit depressed these last 2 days. Maybe it is cause my son left for Japan but I think it is a bit deeper. UNRESOLVED CONFLICT has been my ongoing relationship with WS and it scares me. Yet I do not want to live alone and I have strong feelings for my H. When he is not doing somethng stupid, we are great together. He does not know how to commit or have a committed relationship. I cannot teach him----I tried that. Wonder how I he can ever see that he needs to learn and understand some things about relationships. I have enabled him in the past to live whatever way he wants and I do not want to do that anymore. I did not take action on what I was feeling. <p>I heard a song yesterday by Amy Grant.....these words puzzle me "And all I ever have to be is what You made me. Any more or less would be a step out of your plan" How do you find out how God made you. Without WS, I understand myself but with him I get lost. <p>Thanks again for your suggestion to take it slow. That is something I will have to continue to practice. I am not good with SLOW. It is not in my vocabulary so maybe that is what I need to learn first.<p>TW

bumpity bumpity

TossedWave,
Your situation sounds a bit like mine. However, I am now divorced, although I know my xh would gladly return. His A is over, BUT he still has many other issues that he is not willing to work on. We've had several conversations about reconciliation and I tell him what I need to regain trust and love for him. He knows he has problems and agrees that he needs to work on them. But he doesn't move a finger to move forward or to even begin to make any changes. I don't know if he's lazy or if he really just wants me to remain at arms length. <p>I have moved on. I feel better about myself than I have in years. I still have feelings for him but I am not willing to go back to the way things were. He will have to prove that he is at least trying, until then I am content and happy alone.<p>I've given you my story to make a point. If you are feeling good about yourself and your life now I wouldn't open up to being hurt again unless your H makes those changes that will allow you to feel comfortable with him again. First he will have to be rid of OW. Then he will need to do what is necessary to make you see that he is trying. You can decide from that point if you are willing to welcome him back. <p>It would be wonderful if my xh and your h could turn around and make the changes necessary to join us in a fulfiling life together, but if they can't or won't, don't you think you we are better off feeling good about ourselves without the pain they bring?<p>Sorry if I am totally off base and I misread your first message. I do that sometimes. <p>Be strong,
ASM

ASM, you are not off base at all cause these are the thoughts I am wrestling with. He has always been so unwilling to change anything....why would he start now. I believe the pain of staying the same has to be greater than the pain of changing. Not sure where his pain level is and if he has a bottom. He has so many regrets and doesn't always do what is healthy and good for himself. But there is a side to him that is very lovable, likeable and very responsible and I get wondering if I am expecting too much of him at times. <p>I agree totally that OW has to be out of the picture but that is almost impossible to know cause the deception is so prevalent with his personality.<p>TW

Tossed,
I've had some very similar thoughts. I've seen a great many things in myself and made some real strides at becoming the person I'd like to be and I don't see WS doing much of anything. <p>I'm not quite as comfortable with my life now or being without WS as you seem to be (good for you BTW) even so I've had similar thoughts. Will she change, will the cycle just begin over again? <p>I don't have the answers to these questions but I do know that things can never be the same. I'm not that person and I want so much more from our M than what we had. I'm not willing to settle any longer. I love her with all my heart and I'll be here as long as I can but I will not settle. <p>Are you sure you'll still lose yourself with him? You sound as if you've grown a great deal and you sound like a very strong person, I have a sneaking suspicion that you'll not be so "accomidating". [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I've made my desires very clear to my W, she knows what I want from our M and I've told her that I'll not settle for less and nor should she. I figure time will tell if we can provide what we each need and build that together or not. <p>I feel that I've done a great deal of work for myself and I've reached a place where I'm starting to feel good about me. I don't think it's too much to expect my W to make the same kind of effort for herself. If she doesn't, then the things in herself that contributed to the A will still be there. This isn't a cycle I'm willing to repeat a third time. <p>In that respect, I think time will answer the questions for me. She either will grow from this or not. All I can do is give her the space to do that and wait and see. Sorry that I can't really help but that's the answer for me. I wish you the best.

tw,
I know exactly what you mean about H's better side. My xh can be so kind, giving, caring, funny and thoughtful that it really upsets me to think that he can also be lying, manipulative and all the other bad things which seem so too numerous. We tried to reconcile several times before the D and we'd get to a certain point and then nothing changed from the past so I'd suggest counciling which he would never do. The sad part is that the more I pull away the more he tries to reel me in. What also killed our reconciliation attempts, he would get in a comfortable situation with me again and lose interest and that would be the end of his effort to continue working on the marriage. <p>We work in the same office, I see him everyday, I know him so well. He has anger problems, I suspect that he is bipolar. But he will not seek help because he feels it is a sign of weakness or pride. Right now we are friends and it makes it doubly hard to think that he just can't see how self destructive he can be. <p>I know I contributed to the situation by my co-dependence. This is what I have overcome and I feel so much better now. <p>I am not saying that your M will end as mine has, hopefully your H will see and understand what needs to be done and he will take the steps necessary. I know how you are feeling, wanting to be with the good side of him but afraid that the bad side is just too much to handle, especially when you are feeling better about your own life. <p>I like what SoFar2go said. Especially about not being as accomodating. It's easy to fall back into familiar patterns but it is not what will work in the long run. You have seen a better/ happier you, it would be a shame to lose that now. I bet your H sees the positive glow about you and that's why he is communicating more. <p>Keep up the good work on you, and no matter what happens you will be okay.<p>ASM
[img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Sofar2go, commenting on your comment<p>Are you sure you'll still lose yourself with him? You sound as if you've grown a great deal and you sound like a very strong person, I have a sneaking suspicion that you'll not be so "accomidating".<p>I have grown but I notice when I am with him I feel like a victim (my protective wall emerges) and I cannot interact real well. I resort to the attitudes of the past. I do not understand my emotions with him. This bothers me and I think we need professional help in learning how to connect and communicate. I know exactly what you mean about not wanting to be accomadating cause after someone does this to ya, it makes ya just not want to care what is upsetting to them at all. But that is not right all the time either.<p>I'm not quite as comfortable with my life now or being without WS as you seem to be <p>I am not real comfortable in my home for long periods of time without WS. I get overwhelmed with aloneness and then I start to miss him. When I am busy doing things I enjoy and around those that care about me, I feel like it could not get any better. I do so what to share my life with someone. I don't think the single life is for me.<p>I've made my desires very clear to my W, she knows what I want from our M and I've told her that I'll not settle for less and nor should she<p>How did you make these things clear...in writing or verbally? What did you say? I love what you said about not wanting her to settle for anything less either.<p>You have helped---any new thoughts are valuable cause my thoughts just go round and round in my head. Thanks!!!!<p>ASM--
The sad part is that the more I pull away the more he tries to reel me in. <p>Dr Dobson talks about this in Tough Love. Why do we do this? It prolongs the agony.<p>How long have you been D? How are you doing with the whole thing? Do you have children?<p>What also killed our reconciliation attempts, he would get in a comfortable situation with me again and lose interest and that would be the end of his effort to continue working on the marriage. <p>Boy, this comment hits the nail on the head. WS said when he left that the separation may be for the good cause he would appreciate me more and not take me for granted. I so fear things slipping back if we reconcile. I know WS could do a whizz bang job on doing all the things he thinks is right for a couple of months then he would be right back doing his own thing in no time. The A seems to be a product of his need to feel good about himself and to feel young so our mature, boring life (which I do not think is boring at all) will eventually sneak up on him and he will long for the thrills left behind. I know that this could happen if he does not look inside and find the reasons for his unhappiness.<p>Boy---there is nothing like talking to people who have been there....Much food for thought. It is encouraging to know that there is survival after infidelity. I thought months ago that I would not heal or be able to live normally again. I could even do the everyday stuff like go shopping or be in a crowd or even watch TV now I feel like a whole functioning person in many aspects of my life except one.<p>Funny thing is that I have always been the one to find my way out of unhappiness and grow and change. WS doesn't look for change or acknowledge the need for change but my changing has kind of dragged him into some changes but he does not grow at the same pace as I do. Not sure how I feel about that. <p>Thanks for "listening"
TW

Hi tossed!<p>I can completely understand the "losing yourself" feeling when around your H.<p>I completely lost myself in my H - and I used to blame him for it. It was my own fault and I allowed myself to get lost by not taking care of myself. Even now, after 3 years of Al-Anon, I still easily get sucked back into the old dance.<p>A couple of things to consider: What are you doing for yourself? What kind of support base, friends, activities, etc, do you have for you?<p>Take a good look at your relationship with your H as he is TODAY. Don't think about his "potential". (which, btw, is the "script" reason why co-dependents fall in love with addicts).<p>If *THIS* is the relationship you would have with this man from now on and it would never get better....would you stay?<p>As long as we are focused on "potential"....we are focused on unrealistic expectations, and our own self-will. We aren't facing reality, we are denying it and insisting that our own desires be real.<p>IMHO, staying with a man because he "might" hit bottom and change, and that he "might" be the person you think he is, and that he "might" fulfill that potential that only you can see is a recipe for disaster.<p>On the other hand...if you can find yourself in a strong enough place to keep yourself detached lovingly from his "stuff" and to care for yourself...and learn to accept that he is who he is - not who you want him to be - and if you are comfortable with the relationship you have...then maybe you have something to consider.<p>But it does mean recognizing that you are making a choice - you can no longer act like a victim. You would be choosing to remain in a relationship with an active alcoholic - and if he goes on to continue to act like an alcoholic....well, you can't exactly say you didn't know, now can you?

BR----Wow I need to think over what you said. It confuses me a little cause I do not know how I could be married to someone that might not have the potential to be faithful. If there is no expectations, no one grows and there are no goals. I know I have to accept his personality and the person he is but why do we have to accept behavior that is destructive?<p>I will think and respond more later<p>TW

BR--I am back trying to think through what you said.<p>If *THIS* is the relationship you would have with this man from now on and it would never get better....would you stay?<p>Well--before the A, I was so unhappy, depressed, unconnecting from the world and people around me and feeling so hopeless. He would not listen to my feelings at all cause they included him. That is why I fear any consideration of getting back with a H who will never change. I cannot live like that soooooooo....<p>
A couple of things to consider: What are you doing for yourself? What kind of support base, friends, activities, etc, do you have for you?<p>I have a full and active life---I work F/T, active in my church, lead a Bible Study, taking college courses, have a fair number of very supportive friends (wish I had more single friends), been traveling since WS left, Alanon, and enjoy times with my immediate family. I am trying to find more activities for weekends cause being alone at home for long periods is when I struggle. I seemed to have less free time when WS was here---maybe cause I had added chores (not sure). I don't like the aloneness of being single but everything else is good. I sometimes feel like I only want to get back with WS cause of not wanting to be alone. Then I realize all the good times we have had. He is a remarkable person and I have never met anyone that I like being with as much as him. I cannot even come to any conclusions about his alcoholism. It seems so vague and minimal but it sucks the life out of me. No one else has a problem with his drinking. It effects no one but me. It all feels like trying to grab jello. <p>On the other hand...if you can find yourself in a strong enough place to keep yourself detached lovingly from his "stuff" and to care for yourself...and learn to accept that he is who he is - not who you want him to be - and if you are comfortable with the relationship you have...then maybe you have something to consider<p>Can't image me being able to do this. Thanks for giving me things to think about.<p>BR, What do you think of Plan B? Not sure Plan A and Plan B are understood completely by us MBers. You mentioned that you were separated for 18 months...was there contact with your WS/addict? I am having thoughts of completely cutting myself off from WS but I think my motives are wrong. I am not a good one for relaxing in limboland so I am always wanting to fix or see things move forward so I might be using it to speed up a decision one way or another.<p>Again thanks for your input---
TW

bumping up for BR

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>BR, What do you think of Plan B? Not sure Plan A and Plan B are understood completely by us MBers. You mentioned that you were separated for 18 months...was there contact with your WS/addict? I am having thoughts of completely cutting myself off from WS but I think my motives are wrong. I am not a good one for relaxing in limboland so I am always wanting to fix or see things move forward so I might be using it to speed up a decision one way or another.<hr></blockquote><p>Except at the beginning when my H was VERY angry, I usually had weekly face to face contact with my H...and often daily contact of some sort over email, IM or telephone.<p>Obviously, you don't want the relationship you HAD. Obviously, you would love to have a mutually fulfilling one with your H instead. But is that realistically going to happen? Just because no one else thinks your H is an alcoholic, or can't figure out what your problem with his drinking is doesn't mean there is a problem.<p>Sometimes people say: Your H couldn't possibly be an alcoholic! And rather than trying to educate them about alcoholism, I just simply say, "Perhaps not. But I go to Al-Anon because of MY reaction to his drinking."<p>I think you need to sit down and come up with a list of "MUST HAVES" for reconciliation with your H. So if your H brings the reconcile conversation up...you can say that you have certain concerns, and needs that must be resolved before reconciling. <p>If your H is serious...he'll want to cooperate and work with you. If not, well you'll be able to tell by the vague promises, angry defiance and basic attitudes.<p>My H said that he wanted to move home almost 9 months and one divorce filing before it happened.<p>It wasn't until the end that his attitude did a 180, and he showed by his actions and attitude that he was willing to do what I needed to repair our marriage. THATS when he turned over all of his passwords and pin numbers and paychecks and wrote the nocontact letter. Thats when he started accounting for all of his time. And even then, it was a month of just kind of negotiating and setteling into a new relationship before he moved home.<p>So if your H isn't making any noises that sound like willing participating in developing a relationship that you both can live with...then you need to simply take a look at what you need.<p>Maybe you need Plan B. But Plan B shouldn't be done just to "shake things up". Do you need the space? Are you willing to accept that this could be the end of your marriage?<p>I just think that you have to clearly set down what you want and need for reconciliation and out of marriage...and then get very real. What exactly is the reality of your situation? Then deal with THAT, not with what could be.

BR----Ever since New Year's Eve I have been struggling. The New Year brings thoughts of the future and I DO NOT WANT TO GO THERE. Also Friday is our Anniversary (33 yrs). I want so much to just stop thinking about WS. I want to shut him out my life and move forward cause one minute I see no hope. Than my hopes are raised and I think I might have my life back. He was around so much when my Son was home and we sort of felt like a family. Now I want to just go one way or another. He keeps alluding to coming home and us talking about that but he never has approached me with any discussion yet. I wonder if he was just appeasing his guilt with our kids so he felt he had to say these things. It is so hard to know what is true. Consequently, I cannot seem to come to any conclusions and free myself of hoping for something that can never be.<p>I want something to happen. I feel pulled one way one day and pulled another way the next. I hate this!!!!! I want to just go in one direction.<p>Are you willing to accept that this could be the end of your marriage?<p>Maybe I am getting here. I am tired of waiting for maybe nothing. I have removed my rings before Christmas and I feel strong when I convince myself it is over. Unfortunately, I want to meet someone and I know that is not the answer. My chances of meeting someone are almost zero anyway. WHY do we think this is a solution?<p>Thanks for your time and insight....it helps so much to "talk" things out.<p>TW