cali, perhaps you are analyzing too much (yeah, I know, pot calling the kettle black, but anyways), you can only analyze so much, and it is necessary for some of us to do that, to "understand" as much as humanly possible. I think you have pretty much done that, now is the time for action. I am firmly convinced that part of the marital resolution process (whether it is restored or ends) is seperation, it is even Biblical...so no moral, ethical reasons not too. The reason people resist is psychological, it is a proactive choice, and a change, both are not human behavioural defaults (the opposites are). Mtrrh is right IMO, if one cannot negotiate a reconcilliation, then at some point it must be put to the fire, and the marriage either restores, or ends....as it must, because no one can recover for themself while in limbo land....further, what you (or anyone) is doing in limbo is making limbo the marital paradigm, do you want that? The longer it goes on, the more LIKELY skewed results occur (and phoney, crippled recoveries, etc.), do you see? As the more responsible party (you) the healthiest thing you can do is seperate, he leaves, you leave, whatever....as long as you are seperate. I don't think the in-house thing works, your H has revealed he is a scrapper, and he will fight you on that, and it will be hell.<p>You can rest conscience free, you have gone the distance, done the work, made the changes, talked it out, etc etc, this is a natural progression, and it is time. Are you perfect? No. probably done some controlling, some LB, all I can say is piffle, none of that makes any difference, he is a grown man not a child, he can deal with that. Remember when we talked about do you want to be his mother forever? Long time ago, and as predicted, that is still the role you are playing essentially. Well, mothers don't abandon their children, so leaveing will make it clear you want to be a wife, not his mommy, not his security blanket, his PARTNER. And he can choose accordingly, a partner, or look elsewhere for a mommy. Of course fit, fits into all this, but I won't rile you up with all that, just keep in mind one thing marsha, you cannot lose something you never had....you may have lost a "picture" but it was not real, you are not risking losing a marriage, cause you never had one, he never committed right (and quite possibly never did you, as you now understand). It takes both, and by leaveing you are essentially asking him to marry you, and when we ask someone that, the risk is they may say no.....or they may wait so long to say yes, that you no longer accept their yes, such is life, you snooze you lose, time for H to face the full consequence of his choices, all of them, from the day he met you.... till now. You have faced your consequences, all except one, you have not really let him go, given it up to God, now it is time.<p>As for me, our time is coming too, I know that, it must for all.... one cannot go on in turmoil indefinitely, it has a season, you make committments, this time informed committments. Never again can anyone who has been through this claim ingnorance and such about marriage...that is why I think truly restored marriages are commonly described as much better, they are, cause they are chosen with full understanding (well assuming people do the work, too often they don't really do it, and I think that accounts for the failed recoveries, and sad recoveries we read about her so much). If that means seperation is needed to fully understand, then that is ok, and a legitimate part of the process as well. In fact I am not so sure seperation should not be mandatory, people really should kind of go on a sabbatical before making such an important life decision, to be free of influence from spouse, family, freinds, community etc, to see what they really do want deep down, radically honest, and then communicate that. So they can look someone in the eye and say with all their being, I choose you, above all else, I choose you....freely, without coercion of any kind, without guilt, without promises, without sacrifice, without duty, I choose you out of all the choices I could make, to be with you, wake up next to you for the rest of my life.

Cali,<p>How are you today? Maybe you could post and let us know???? Maybe?<p>Jo

Cali hon???,<p>I am also worried about how you are doing. Didn't mean to be so strong with you in my last post but I certainly don't want you to suffer that police escort stuff (I went through it twice). As nice as the officers were, it was very humiliating. Of course that is just 1 small piece of the big puzzle in your life but still a piece. <p>If you get a chance read SNL's response to Terrified on page 1. He speaks of how a WS who is generally not an angry person allows themselves to be abusive to their mate. How the BS may or may not contribute to it and why. I have also put my response there as well. <p>Remember Cali, don't be a doormat. Just because he blames you for stuff doesn't mean you have to apologize for all of it. Only the real stuff, don't enable him by accepting blame for stuff you did not do. Otherwise, you would be setting the trend to allow everyone to blame you for everything. You don't allow anyone else to do that do you? <p>Ok Cali, you have already shown you are a person with a great mind and inner strength. I know you are feeling quite down and weak right now. But your moment of strength is right around the corner, you just have to find it. It is very near to you. <p>Take care. I am only a phone call away if you need. <p>L.<p>[ January 06, 2002: Message edited by: Orchid ]</p>

Hi all thanks for responses...<p>FreddyB...I hope people have made you welcome... EVERYONE IS... sometimes time and circumstance prevent certain posts from getting lots of replies... some of mine have 1 or 2... then there are ones like these that have many... I know we would love to hear from you...HUGZZ and thanks...<p>NY...I'm listening... I already have the # of a local divorce lawyer... my brother-in-law and his best friend are lawyers ...so this summer I contacted him (friend) and he gave me # of another lawyer in his circle... he said he couldn't because he was too close to both of us...<p>Terrified... tough love ... setting boundaries ... letting him know what I will and will not tolerate. Definitely past due. I will NOT tolerate contact and I will get tougher and more hard line on that ...until it is time to leave... if he won't stop... leaving is in the picture... <p>Orchid... I hear you... The difference between now and summer is great... Yesterday it was me pushing H around the kitchen when he wanted to walk past me... he did nothing expect ask me calmly if that was helping me feel better... I told him I was just tired of him walking away and not listening... STOP RUNNING from me and your feelings... <p>lupo... You know H and I have been emotionally detached for so long... I really think that enabled him to think I didn't care and didn't love him... I had detached... was scared... was angry... I am working to create stronger, more healthy emotional bonds... where I say those things that used to stay in my head and make my stomach hurt... only now I am learning to say them in love... I have also done the "not be where I am supposed to be..." thing and he doesn't like it... HATES it when I don't answer my phone... It is a fine line to walk between becoming 'distant' yet staying in love...<p>lexxxy when I read your posts I feel you are a feminine version of him... he is frozen... yesterday he told me he won't leave because it is what I want him to do... and he won't allow me to make his decisions for him... the more I ask him to leave... the more obstinate he will get... I look forward to your thoughts...<p>SnL... yeah... I've done the work... but I feel God speaking to me NOT to leave yet... give Him a chance to do his work... REALLY... you're right I do analyze too much and try to DO the work... when I really should be leaving it in God's hands and continue the focus on me... when it is time to leave, should the time come, I will know... I just think that he needs to leave and come back freely... I am now "sorta" ready for that... more ready than I was this summer... scared, but not as scared...<p>mtthr... yep... has his cake and is eating it too w/ frosting... I am in IC starting this week and will discuss the issues of leaving etc. <p>honey, misery, daybreak, jdmac...hope I didn't forget anyone... Thanks so much for your thoughts and prayers... <p>Resilient... we went to dinner and the movies last night with the boys ... came home... I seduced him ... we overslept and had to rush to make it to 9:30 service... went to bible study (married couples) went to lunch and now were home doing the Sunday afternoon thing...<p>I let Princess know in no uncertain terms that if she planned on waiting for my H forever that I would be in her life forever... she could not pretend I didn't exist... she calls him and I will contact her in some way... I will never be vulger or threatening...just a dose of reality... from the message she left yesterday...tone of voice... she doesn't much like being reminded that I exist... too bad...<p>As for H... I planted some seeds regarding God's will for our marriage... I will no longer accept his assertion that I dragged him into marriage... though he still insists that in his mind he had no choice and that's what makes the difference... he didn't think he had any choice . <p>Well he does now. He has the choice to stay and make marriage work... or leave and start new life without me... the door is open and swings both ways... but don't take me for granted... if you live with me as a wife, I expect to be treated as a wife... no girlfriends allowed... if he calls her or she calls him... that opens door for communication for me... afterall, I am the other leg of the triangle... HIS CHOICE

Thank you for letting us know you're doing well, Cali.<p>You really need to believe you will be okay without your H. You WANT him but do not need him in your life as he is right now. His blatant disrespect of you and your marriage needs to end, it's making major withdrawals to your balance in your Lovebank. If his behavior continues, without any sign of participating in the marriage, he'll deplete it all together and you'll be DONE.<p>I admire you so much, Cali. He needed to hear what the boundaries are, and don't be surprised when he requires a reminder. <p>Like Steve Harley says, you have to be diligent in chipping away until WS starts to understand you are serious about recovery, because indeed there are alternatives. <p>Much strength to you,
Jo<p>[ January 06, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

Cali<p>I like the stand you took w/ contacting her & the triangle. They do after all have a choice and a way to stop that.<p>Let us know hw you are and what is happening as much as you can w/Princess looking on anyhow.<p>{{{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Cali, <p>I see you are getting your strength back. I am glad. Also thanks for posting to terrified, she is having a rough time. <p>Yep this A stuff sure sends us the gamit of emotions. Just want off that roller coaster. <p>Here's hoping for a better tomorrow!<p>L.

There's one big problem with that triangle thing though......<p>It's nothing but one big LB after another.It does nothing to increase his respect for you, in fact it does just the opposite. Being the third "squeeky" wheel makes him dislike you even more, it takes away your strength and your dignity and makes you a whining, complaining,? (insert word). It ruins every bit of anything you've accomplished in Plan A. If you do that long enough it will negate Plan A altogether. I think you've worked much to hard and long in Plan A to ruin it.It's time to get out of the picture. He'll never see that OW can't meet all of his needs until you stop meeting the majority of them. <p>He doesn't want to be married, ok. The options are divorce (which you don't want), or separation( acting "as if" divorced" ) or a pure Plan B OR staying in a marriage H doesn't want where he gets to emotionally abuse you whenever he pleases, gets to have two women scrambling to meet his needs and doesn't have to be accountable to anyone for anything, just has to listen to you piss and moan about it repeatedly. Come on Cali, you know where your best option for restoring your marriage lies. Let me tell you something..restoring a marriage after infidelity if excruciatingly hard work even when you have every single broken piece put back into place and just need it to glue back together again.But when you have a spouse who is reluctant, can't make up their mind, is beligerant, unforgiving and is carrying a chip on their shoulder, you can just about forget it.<p>This isn't about you. If it were primarily about you Plan A would have produced more fruit for you. Your's is a classic case where all the primary cause of this is about something deep in HIM, it's not about that you were some horrible ogre of a wife. <p>You want to save your marriage, then you have to let him have what he wants,if you don't he'll always be able to say you were the one who held him back somehow( how horrible is that!), you have to let him fix himself(if he's even willing to do that).<p>You are driving yourself nuts trying to change something that you have absolutely no control over. You will continue to suffer until you let him go to go do what he needs to do to be a real husband. There can be no love where there is no respect.

mthhr...you have to be the voice of reason... don't you ... LOL. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Even as writing it, I knew I couldn't do it... knew it to be LB... but a girl can dream...<p>I know everything you say is true... I know I have really done the best plan A I can... the past four months, I have been most impeccable ... he knows and has acknowledged the changes in me... and you are right the ball is in his court and he doesn't want to play...<p>So now I go to a different plan... a plan of separation... timing will be everything, our lease is not up until August... I am reluctant to leave and take the kids, as Z has indicated we could get into issues of kidnapping or abandonment... but perhaps I iron out a plan to separate and start to divide our assets and living arrangements... <p>I did keep telling him yesterday that he did not owe us a house... he did not have to make sure I would be 'okay,' I am quite capable of doing that myself... as for finances... he would be out on the losing end as he makes 1/2 what I do...<p>So I figure I have 6-7 months before separation would be feasible... if he WON'T leave and I have to... <p>The good news is that we have been going to church faithfully and just this Sunday started to go to a couple's Bible study... I am going to continue to trust my insticts which I believe is God telling me to be patient (I am not a patient person) and let Him to his work (I like to control). <p>And, no, I will not call Princess again... knowing her as I do, she may think she can wait forever for my H... but her reality is that she hasn't got a very good track record... <p>Cali

Have you called a lawyer yet? Kidnapping or abandonment- well, maybe there are some precautions a lawyer would advise you on, but I doubt that this would be true. And 6-7 months is too long- i think you would be so far gone at that point as to have made the last 4 months meaningless as was suggested. Call a lawyer and check your options, ok?

Cali,<p>I replied to you over on IR. How are you today?<p>Hugs,<p>OneDay

ScaredInNY,<p>The reason I rose the kidnapping and abandonment issued is because I ran into just that. In my previous marriage I filed for divorce and moved out of our home with our son. <p>My then H got an emergency court hearing the next day charging that I’d kidnapped our son. The judge ordered that I return our son to the family home. I was told that I had no right to unilaterally remove him. And I was told that if I did not return him I’d be charged with kidnapping.<p>The judge also viewed my leaving the home as a unilateral, hostile act. It was obvious that I had given up all sorts of rights by doing this. It was also obvious that the judge was going to favor my ‘poor husband’ who I’d abandoned.<p>Since I was not about to return a child to an abusive man, I returned to our family home too. What I was told by the courts and lawyers in both NM and TX is that a spouse cannot unilaterally remove a child from the family home.. period. Both parents have to agree on it.<p>Of course it was an attorney who originally advised me to make the move. It turns out that she knew I was on shaky ground but did not think my H would respond as he did. I dropped her like a hot potato. <p>After that failed attempt at divorce, I lived with my abusive former-h for another 4 years. I had no legal recourse. Though he was abusive, it was never enough for the cops to see…. No big bruises or broken arms. Four years later he told me I could leave with our son because he wanted me out of there. Then he tried to kidnap our son back. Go figure. <p>So my comments come from my own, very hard earned experience. Yes the courts would look at it as kidnapping and abandonment if her husband chooses to make those charges.<p>I agree that waiting until August is a really bad idea. I also agree that Cali should call a lawyer and check her options. This is the time to do that, not several months down the road.

Sounds reasonable- but there must be some pre-moving steps she could take to ensure she is not subject to such charges was what I was trying to say.

Sorry, I will stay out of things that are none of my business in the future....sorry again if any one was offended.

freddy,<p>Hope you did not think I was offended. You have good input... I was being sincere and trying to encourage you. Don't go.