I have made a mess out of my cries for help. I did not pay to much attention to which forums offer the most support and have two threads going which are linked together.<p>I would like to ask for advice and support as this is getting more difficult by the day.<p>Please read everything I have posted starting here before commenting, and then lay it on me.<p>I think I have screwed up, and am having a hard time continuing with Plan A. I need help and support, Orchid, Julia, rev, and redhat all have had great replies and I guess I am just asking for any other views.<p>This forum seems to be the one to go to so here I am.<p>Any takers?<p>Scott

Hi Scott,<p>Welcome to GQII. Glad you brought your thread over. Yes, I hope you can benefit from those who post here.<p>I read what happened and am sorry you and your family had to learn this news. Not pleasant and very painful. <p>Scott, are you really really surprised? Or just very very disappointed? Answer honestly and then let's help you move forward. You can feel pain, anger and frustration over news like this even great depression. Knowing this can help you get prepared and steady yourself. Those here can also offer support. <p>Know that the boards are sometimes slow on the weekends so please bear with us. <p>I have to go home now, but will check back in later. A suggestion is that if there is still some time left tonight (not sure where you are located) try to do something with your family. Take your mind off of it for just a while. <p>Hug those little girls and let them know how much their dad loves them..... this is important for you too!<p>Take Care,
L.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Orchid:
Scott, are you really really surprised? Or just very very disappointed? Answer honestly and then let's help you move forward.<hr></blockquote><p>Honestly......gut feelings have been not to believe what I was told. I so wanted to...
I guess I am very disappointed? Any chance it was just skiing? J/K Of course there is more to it and I have been a fool. The girls and I are going to spend the evening at home. It has been a busy week for them and they need some down time before going back to Granny's house tomorrow. Thank god for them. I do believe they are disappointed in their mom, although I am managing to not say anything negative, I still get the feeling they know it's not right. They are very snugly and seem to be getting more attached to me daily. I hope they don't see me as weak (even though they have seen me cry), and think that they have to take care of me. I try to be strong and just have them do some chores, have some fun, and enjoy their visits. I don't want to overdue it and make me seem luck all fun as aposed to mom and "normal" life. Hence the occasional chores. Well Orchid, thanks for being honest. No need to sugarcoat it as I think I know the truth anyway.<p>Scott

Well she picked them up after mass and we talked a little. She said she had more fun skiing than she as ever had before. I asked her what she thought of that relating to the parts in HNHN about having fun and correlating it with who you are with. She said he does not ask anything of her, and she is not ready to spend time with me yet even though her reason for leaving was that we did not spend enough time together. She says once again they are only friends and he still love his OP whom he is separated from.
I want so bad to believe her. Could it be possible?
She never called the girls last night, said she did not get home until late. I did not ask any more questions and just asked her to be honest with me even if it would hurt me. She says she is and that is all there is to it.
OK, I keep plan A-ing and "trust" what she has told me to protect myself from the mental torture I created by wondering. Does this sound like a good plan?<p>Thanks
Scott

ScottP, I am too new here to really comment on your situation but to say, hang in there and take the advice of these pros. And remember, they will be hard on us when we need it. It is easy when your emotions are so high to make mistakes. Part of Plan A means having a life. Not building life around idea of getting person back. That is something that I am learning. But it seems like I am less alive and just wait for the next chance we have to be together. Hang in there.

Today W gave me a note when dropping of the kids stuff for staying the night. She said she has no intentions of a romance with anybody right now. Her goals and concerns always put our children first. Then she writes OM came over to her moms for dinner with the whole family Monday night. She writes "he is my friend".
Wow! I cannot believe her whole family would welcome this man into their home to dinner with my wife and kids friend or romantic interest. I asked her a few days ago not to have the kids around him. She said she can respect that. In this note she implies she never worried about their safety when I take them anywhere or go to my friends so this should be OK with me.
I plan to reply that I was never concerned about their safety, I just feel they are confused enough without having to be around a man they don't know while their parents are separated. Who knows if they might wonder if he is their new "dad" or moms "boyfriend". I also feel I should be their male role model not him. Am I out of line with this request? Am I LBing? Could they really just be friends?
I am trying acceptance and trust but it is soooooo hard.
Help and suggestions?

Scott,<p>What your W did was very much out of line. Highly disrespectful. What terms are you on with your in-laws? <p>Your children need to know 'not to talk to strangers'. Especially strange men. Hm...... dad you could teach them that. Is that an LB? Nope not if you are protecting your children. Yes, they met them but he is not your friend. <p>That is what I told my son. At 6 years old, he knew the difference. Brilliant kid even told his dad that his dad needed to leave that lady and come home. <p>Protection of your children is never an LB. If she is making excuses, then you may have to consider checking out your legal recourses. Do you have to do a background check on his character? If your W is going to have this guy around your kids, you better make sure there is no police type of record. <p>I don't want to scare you but you need to be aware. You have every right to take care of your family in the best way you see fit. <p>Take Care,
L.

Hi ScottP,
First of all, congratulations on 8 years of sobriety. That's great!<p>From reading your initial post, it sounds like you have a big emotional need for recreation, but when it became boring, uninteresting or too much trouble for your W, you guys didn't find something to do that you both would enjoy. Besides, if she did all the yardwork, WHO would do the yard if you were gone all the time?????? But oh well, that is neither here nor there...<p>Being frustrated because she is taking the kids around her male friend is not going to get you any deposits in her love bank, so tread lightly there because after all, she is the mom and I'm assuming she loves her kids and wouldn't take anyone around them whom she knows to be dangerous. Obviously you can't stop her, so you might as well relax on the power struggle. You can't get all overly concerned after being terribly neglectful for several years and expect her to jump, right?<p>Sorry to step on your toes but you seem a bit anxious and that will only turn her off. You say you are frustrated in Plan A... Well, do you actually KNOW what your W's emotional needs and love busters really ARE??? It would help to know specifically what her needs are rather than assume you know. You could be way off the mark and not filling her love bank whatsoever!<p>If she is not open to filling out the questionnaires, perhaps you could at least get her to talk more about the specific ways in which she wished you had "been there" for her? Was it in domestic support--needing more help around the house and that YARD!?, more help with your girls, what? Obviously one of her needs is financial security/support and you admitted that you failed there. Are you sure you want to file bankruptcy? Would that help or hurt in the long run? Is there any way you could get on a program to learn how to pay your debts, otherwise, it (massive debt) could possibly happen to you again if you don't teach yourself a different way of handling your money. You sound like a very impulsive person to me, in general... Gotta grow up some time and learn how to wait for what you want.<p>Okay, I'll stop now. Just some things that crossed my mind. I hope this helps.<p>[ January 10, 2002: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by BINthereDUNthat:
<strong>Hi ScottP,
First of all, congratulations on 8 years of sobriety. That's great!<p>From reading your initial post, it sounds like you have a big emotional need for recreation, but when it became boring, uninteresting or too much trouble for your W, you guys didn't find something to do that you both would enjoy. Besides, if she did all the yardwork, WHO would do the yard if you were gone all the time?????? But oh well, that is neither here nor there...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Thanks for the pat on the back, yes my EN for recreation has always been large. I led a spoiled life and obviously took advantage of her giving nature. The MC we saw last summer told her that she had changed the rules (had always been OK before) and that by not telling me (not good at communication), I did not have the opportunity to change and grow with her. She changed, I did not. This is not an excuse though, I should have realized but did not. Although she is partially to blame for not communicating her needs and "suffering in silence" as she calls it.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>Being frustrated because she is taking the kids around her male friend is not going to get you any deposits in her love bank, so tread lightly there because after all, she is the mom and I'm assuming she loves her kids and wouldn't take anyone around them whom she knows to be dangerous. Obviously you can't stop her, so you might as well relax on the power struggle. You can't get all overly concerned after being terribly neglectful for several years and expect her to jump, right?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I never thought OM was dangerous, just inappropriate. This is confusing enough for our children without throwing a "male friend" into the picture. Yes I should tread lightly as I constantly sabotage myself and end up LB-ing. I told her last night that her lack of respect for my wish that the kids not be around him hurts more that her leaving. She had said she respected that wish but then had him down to her moms for dinner Monday night. I don't expect her to jump, just to give me the opportunity to change and grow with her without the outside influence that she is getting by sharing her EN's with OM. I guess it is a power struggle, do I sound like a control freak? I never thought of myself that way but I suppose this jealousy could be considered a trait of that sort.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>Sorry to step on your toes but you seem a bit anxious and that will only turn her off. You say you are frustrated in Plan A... Well, do you actually KNOW what your W's emotional needs and love busters really ARE??? It would help to know specifically what her needs are rather than assume you know. You could be way off the mark and not filling her love bank whatsoever!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Yes I am anxious and that is obviously turning her off! She has told me her EN's WERE just doing little everyday things together. How do I go about meeting those now? She realized after going skiing with OM how much fun athletic recreation is. She would never even attempt such a thing over the years when I asked. She says after leaving me she is no longer frightened and is willing to try these new things now. I will ask very nicely if she will fill those forms out now, but I don't expect any cooperation. One step forward, two steps back has been the pattern since she left.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>If she is not open to filling out the questionnaires, perhaps you could at least get her to talk more about the specific ways in which she wished you had "been there" for her? Was it in domestic support--needing more help around the house and that YARD!?, more help with your girls, what? Obviously one of her needs is financial security/support and you admitted that you failed there. Are you sure you want to file bankruptcy? Would that help or hurt in the long run? Is there any way you could get on a program to learn how to pay your debts, otherwise, it (massive debt) could possibly happen to you again if you don't teach yourself a different way of handling your money. You sound like a very impulsive person to me, in general... Gotta grow up some time and learn how to wait for what you want.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Yes all the above would have done the trick. I cannot change the past. You know, I was not a bad husband. Neglectful, yes, but loving and supportive. We had many many great times together. The bankruptcy is already filed and the debt was to much to ever attempt to pay off while living separately. We will have to see what the judge says. I worked many hours to provide support for my family and went to great lengths to make sure they were comfortable. By doing this I put us in debt because of remodeling the home and my recreational pursuits. It does take two though. Yes I am discussing with my counselor the steps to prevent the same behavior financially. Yes I am Impulsive, boy I hate being like that. I read where drug/alcohol addiction stops your maturity growth. When you get clean you start where you were when you became addicted. That means I am probably still acting like a teenager who has not learned to grow up. I have a hard time "waiting" for what I want. It hurts, and I will try to take your advice and learn to grow up. Maybe I am getting what I deserve.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>Okay, I'll stop now. Just some things that crossed my mind. I hope this helps.<p>[ January 10, 2002: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</strong><hr></blockquote><p>[ January 10, 2002: Message edited by: ScottP ]</p>

Dear ScottP,
I appreciate your willingness to look at things objectively. You are an amazing man. I pray that your wife gives you the chance you deserve. I believe everybody deserves a chance to put their best foot forward after they have messed up.<p>I don't think you sound like a control freak, but if your wife decides to disrespect your wishes and bring the friend around your kids, I just don't know what you can really do? It doesn't sound to me like you are in the frame of mind to go rush out and get a lawyer or anything. It seems like a court order would be the only way you could force her to respect that--you know? <p>I just don't think it will ever go over too well if you tell her not to bring her friends around the kids--whether they are male or female. We'll just have to believe and trust God that she is telling the truth.<p>Yes, I do think jealousy is getting the best of you. You are mad at her friend because he is being allowed to fill her EN's and you are not in a position to. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] I feel for you on this one. But, I think if you just try to get her to talk to you about one EN at a time, maybe you could get better results. You know, rather than dump the EN Questionnaire packet in her lap and say HERE, fill this out!<p>I think it would be more advantageous for you if you had a conversation with her, maybe on the phone, nothing too demanding and just ask her. Honey, can I ask you something? When I got sober and we started doing things together, how come you quit coming on trips with me? Did it get boring to you? Then LISTEN to her answer and let her finish. Then apologize for being insensitive to her and continuing on without her. TELL HER that you guys probably could have found another activity to do that everyone could all enjoy. Then, apologize again. THEN, let it go!<p>Don't ask another question until the next time. Let the apology have a chance to sink in. Give her space, or whatever.<p>Then, the next time, maybe ask her about the domestic support thing. Maybe she did it because she had always done the household chores and yardwork, maybe she did it because in the early years, that is how you trained her to be due to your problems with alcohol? Who knows? MAYBE... she started to resent you and lost respect for you because you never stepped up and said, Here Honey, let me help you with the yard today or even just plain let me take it over!<p>I'm not even knocking you here because I am the grass-waterer at our home so I don't have a problem with a woman taking care of the yard. If the couple has an understanding and there is no resentment, then fine.<p>Maybe she just got to the point where she felt like she could do it all on her own. (Unfortunately...)<p>So I say just continue in Plan A but it's not going to be a quick fix. I think the general recommendation for a good, solid Plan A is about 6 months! Are you up to that challenge?<p>Here is a great article you can read about Plan A and the reasons... You may have read it already. Also check out Just Found Out forum and find the "Notable Posts" cuz there is a lot of stuff out there on Plan A and some terrific success stories.<p>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html<p>God bless you and good luck ScottP. I believe in you. You seem to have a good heart and I think God will honor you and help you with this difficult problem. Keep the faith!

The vote of confidence is most appreciated [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] You are right about me having no control (nor any reason to) about her friend. I say my IC yesterday and the same thing was said. I need to let go, disattach, and learn how to be happy on my own. I am probably just making matters worse. I did buy HNHN and LB and we both have read them. She believes in the Love Bank concept but other than that said it is a bunch of BS. She will not even consider filling out the questionnaires. The problem lies with the chapters on the appearance EN and financial support. She believes woman should contribute financially and that looks should not be important. Easy for her to say, she is gorgeous (to me [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ).
Anyway, no sense fighting it, the books helped me to understand. I think the first few chapters of HNHN may have rang home as they dealt with how affairs happen.
I did all the yard work until after I got sober. She enjoyed taking over so we did have that understanding. She did ask me repeatedly to take over the finances and I didn't, my bad decision.
As hard as it is, I think I will concentrate on envisioning my life without her and try to work on finding joy in my own life. My children cause me great joy but I will need more than that. What it is I do not know.
She quit wearing her wedding ring because she said she felt detached. Do you think I should do the same and see if it helps me detach? I swear I will not be the one to file divorce. I love her and want her back. Sometimes I wonder if she is trying to force me into making the decision so she will not have to live with the guilt. Crappy thinking isn't it. I am in my own fog.
Your support is much appreciated, you have very wise words that must be from experience. Thank-you<p>Scott