H has admitted to continued contact AND that he wants a life with the OW. Misses her because she's overseas, angry with me that I forced him to fall in love with another woman that he cannot have at his side every night. Doesn't want me. <p>I just looked at him and walked away. Sobbing...

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> angry with me that I forced him to fall in love with another woman that he cannot have at his side every night.<hr></blockquote><p>Just a quick answer...dinner calls... but I HAD to respond to this.<p>BULL-PUCKY! You forced... Like Heck! You can cop to help creating the environment of your marriage, but just like my H... your H made his own decision there... DO NOT LET HIM GET AWAY WITH THIS ONE...<p>When my H said his litany of why did he have to sin to get me to change... I said BULL-PUCKY... that was on him... THAT it was a CATALYST to change does not mean another CATALYST could not have been chosen...<p>Ask him why he was so weak, he did not protect himself and you and your marriage and CHOOSE a different catalyst....<p>YOU ARE NOT...ARE NOT...ARE NOT... RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS AFFAIR OR HIS FEELINGS...<p>hugz and prayers,
Cali

Cali is ABSOLUTELY correct. You have your share of fault, and he has his. You've accepted yours, he shall accept his.<p>Find strength in the fact that you know this!<p>Prayers,
Kev

Hi T,<p>Oh dear, we see your heart bleeding. Know this T, you are not responsible for his A. Not according to his reasons. <p>T, decide if he is going to keep these accusations coming, do you really want him by your side? It is not an encouragement to dissolve your M but to what depths is he going to be allowed to push you before you say no more? <p>This is the painful part. For me, I had to tell my H that it was more important for me NOT to have OW in my life than to try and hold on to him. That hurt but I had to do it. I was going into depression and fast. My body was giving out and there was nothing I could hold on to anymore. This happened back in August. I had suicidal attempts. T, I have never felt like that before. It was awful. <p>This excerpt is from the plan A revised edition:<p>The waiting spouse must reassess their concept of "level of fairness"... and be willing to be the catalyst of all actions needed to improve the chance of recovery. This is sometimes referred to as the "doormat" issue... Having to do it all with no contribution from the wayward... sometimes even to the detriment of the waiting's self-respect/self-esteem.... Steve asks the rhetorical question... "Would you be a doormat for 3 months if you'd get $1,000,000 at the end?"<p>Avoid those you would suck you into believing your self-esteem/respect will suffer. You will have the rest of your life to rebuild it... if it does suffer. In most cases... doing the more noble action is a builder of self-respect/esteem.<p>"You have no rights when your married"... if you believe in divorce as not being an option! The taker cannot take over in Plan A! Steve Harley says... at divorce time... if during Plan A you keep your self-respect, and self-esteem as the most important issues... that you "stood up for yourself"... the judge will say "good for you... now you're single!"<p>**********************************<p>Now I can't say that I agree with this analogy in a situation such as your nor mine. When my H pushed me out of his anger, this was not something I should continue to take. I had taken it in the past. This was disrespectful and totally out of line. If the A is that important to my H, then he needed to leave me completely and go have his A. That is what I ended up telling my H. I just reread some letters I sent to my H during this time. There were plan B letters. More than 1. Both reinforced my requirements. To this day I keep the same stand. <p>It was and is hard T, but for me it is better to retain my self respect than hold onto a worthless M. For me continued contact with the OW and his constant angry outburst made our M worthless. <p>When I came to that realization, it was much easier to let go. The crying pains became less. At the end of July 2001, I did let my H go. He came back in less than 2 weeks. In retrospect, I should have kept him out there longer since I did get pushed to suicidal limits after that. That could have been because I was already so worn down. <p>Through it all, I knew better. My heart was just having a hard time. So I realized that my H was having a hard time with his heart also and that was why I needed to let him go. I told him so and then let him go. <p>The EA in your H's relationship still has him thinking she is a good thing. There is nothing you can do to convince him otherwise. If that is the case, he will fight you tooth and nail. You probably will need to let him go and find out her dirty business. Whether you are around when he comes back is your call. <p>I will pray for you to receive some strength to make it through these rough times. <p>Hugz,
L.

Terrified,
You have to stand up. I pray for your strength. Let the separation out the day light, it is one LB that you could do to help you out. This is not acceptable from the beginning. Get your support system from close freinds and family. Stay away from contact with H for now until you could get a hold of yourself (few days). H is deep in the fog nothing you could do but stay away from it. Remember not to let yourself as a punching bag for his anger. I told my WW I will call a police if she touched me one more time ... it stoped her and waked her up from her anger.<p>[ January 06, 2002: Message edited by: redhat ]</p>

Hello Cali, K, & O, I know where my fault lies in the situation. My H, however, will never let blame go his way for any of it. Thinks of himself as having been the perfect husband. He did everything he could to make me happy and when he got nothing back, felt he had to find true love elsewhere. Regardless, it's all pretty sad. <p>O, When you say you finally let go, what is it that you did that was different? How long had your H been gone at this point? You're right. I don't want to hold on to this M and this H. Not the one for me. I'm not stupid, just pretty stubborn. <p>Have a very important question for you. My H has attempted intimacy numerous times. Asked H is OW knew about all of this. He said he'd kill me if I called her and told her. Said he would deny it. Said he warned her that I was unstable.

Terrified,<p>I am so sorry for what you are going through. Take care of yourself in every way you can.<p>This last bit about 'he'll kill you if you tell....". Do you have a tape recorder? That would be an interesting conversation to record. Think you could get him to say similary things again? <p>The fact that he admitted that he told her you were crazy, that he said he'd kill you if you told her, etc. It may help to have that some day.<p>You do not deserve this at all. {{{{{{hugs}}}}}}

Hi Zorweb, Thanks for your concern. Funny I was thinking of a tape recorder too. He's enraged right now because he's going to have to face the music. Anyway, wondering if you think I should call the OW and tell her what he's been up to? Or would that be a huge LB?

Terrified,<p>Being evil and all, I'd get it on tape first. Yes it would be a very big love buster. You have to decide what your intent is.<p>If you want to leave the door open for him to come back you might not want to.<p>If you want to through a wrench into their relationship and let the chips fall where they may... call her. Send her the tape as a follow up. <p>Things like this are funny. Sometime they will drive the WS away; sometimes they can save the marriage.<p>Look at STL and my case. When I found out about his affairs, I got his IM buddy list, old phone bills, notes that were laying out in plain view with women’s phone numbers on them, what ever I could find. I called/IM’d/emailed everyone on his IM list… 60 names in all. I was able to contact 30 of them and found that he was involved with 10. He knew I was doing it and that there was no way of stopping me. I was hurt, angry and temporarily insane. I told each and every one of them that he was married (he forgot to tell them that detail), I told them all about all the others, then I asked them to stay out of our lives. There were some who suggested that he really loved them but had married me for money, etc. I was not kind to them. There were a few who lied to me. When I found out the truth I sent them the evidence and told them that I did not appreciate being lied to. One who kept saying that she would never lie and she hates liars.. I finely told here that I knew she was not lying.. .it was just that I had a clear picture of the truth. She stopped trying to cover up after that.<p>Anyway, STL said he as shocked by my reaction. Shocked that I did it but did not really mind. He said it was my right. He also said that it made him feel like I really loved him… would fight for our relationship. Since both of his previous wives left him for their OM’en, I guess it made him feel better. Who knows….. It’s so hard to second-guess these things.<p>How do you think he would really act if you did it? Do you think that he is really leaving this time? Or are you going to force the issue and Plan B?<p>What would you be trying to accomplish by doing it?<p>As for your H saying telling her you are crazy, tell him that yes you are so he should be very careful how far he pushes a crazy lady.... [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]

Hi Terri,<p>I don't mean to sound like an alarmist, but your H saying he would kill you has upset me a bit. Should we be concerned for your well being?<p>Domestic violence are some of the most violent crimes, and you and H can find yourselves in a very emotionally charged state going thru this ordeal.<p>Things can be said in anger that you don't mean. I hope this is the case, Hon.<p>Concerned,
Jo

Hi T,<p>I will attempt to answer your questions. First let me share with you an 'excerpt from the OW's e-mail to me back from Dec 2000. <p>***********************************************
From PBR: "Your jealousy and lack of education is driving your marriage into utter failure.
Any criticisms you send with your hate letters don't affect me. But, ten years of hell with you, as I've heard, can drive anyone to suicide. Look and see what you are doing to your husband. He is dying inside because of you.
You are violent and abusive."<p>"You haven't made his life complete, and your love has been inferior. I think you are a cold person, who cannot feel, who only wants and wants and wants. Self centered and self absorbed in a greedy sort of way. " <p>"I believe him when he tells me that you won't listen to him, that you
intentionally only want to hear what you want to hear. That you won't cook
healthy food, that you don't exercise, that you are a spend thrift and irresponsible
in your debts. You only need him as your money making machine. <p>To me, you appear to be a very difficult person to live with! You're not even pleasant to look at it seems; short, chubby, nagging and rude.
I think you made up those stories about men being in love with you at work. You are just as bad an infidel as he is."<p>*********************************************<p>These are just a few of the descriptions that the OW (who has never met me), described me. Now T, I share this with you to give you some insight as to why I had to learn to let go. Like yourself I held on for what I consider a long time. Each of us have our own time limit. These e-mails were written back in Dec 2000. A little over 1 month after d/d. I basically was still in shock. I had only begun to find MB and was in the infancy stages of understanding anything. <p>Yet it took me over 8 months to reach the stage of where I learned to let go. End of July actually, after my miscarriage, after H was in jail and 2 out of 3 prego threats from OW. I basically was getting tired of all this nonsense and for me, the anger and frustration gave way to just wanting the OW out of my life. <p>Now listen to this. You are reading her words right? Even after my H read those words, he still defended her and she claimed in those same e-mails that she never called me any names and even tried to send the Ws back home 5 times. She wanted me to be indebted to her. Dumb bunny!!<p>Still I held on, relentlessly. To the surprise of the WS and the dismay of the OW. Like hold onto the tail of a tiger. Over rocks and holes, bumpy road, jaggered edges. Emotionally I was beat. I could not take it any longer. That is when (end of July) I realized after all was said and done, I just wanted the OW out of my life and if that meant losing the WS to the OW, then so be it. I needed to have peace back in my life. I said I would not leave my son (even when suicidal that still ran in my mind). It was very very hard then. Weighing it all out, I still feel that way. If my H told me right now he wanted to go and be with OW, I would let him. However, it would be a one way ticket. In my case, I would not want a return. <p>For the WS, it took him living with the OW to she her psyco tendancies. Even now he tries to excuse them but they are getting harder to deny. Her constant repetative calls (calling 2 numbers at the same time, dialing and redialing about 5 times in a row, then sending an e-mail and calling our house phone - within 1 hour, leaving 27 messages on a voice mail in 3 days, etc.) just makes you wonder, even in the fog. <p>Anyways, H had to go find out about that for himself. The rest of those who knew about the OW already knew she was looney, but the ws is stubborn so he had to find out the hard way. Even now he is not 100% convinced so if he has to go, I am much more resolved to closing the door and moving on. <p>T, your heart has to be at that spot. You can't push yourself. But keep your eyes open, you will get there. <p>Let me know if this makes sense. It is kind of hard to explain. <p>Take Care,
L.

Hello all, Haven't been able to sleep much. Thanks for your concern and comment. <p>Z, I'm not sure what to do. Right now, I need for her to know that he's been intimate with me. Maybe that's fury. I'm going to hold on and see what happens. I will definitely always hold on to the hope he may come back but truth is, right now, he's with her in spirit and soul. Can't stand it but need to move on and the reason I wanted to contact the OW is to throw a wrench into their so-called plans. Stupid? Maybe. <p>Jo, Don't know if he'd try to act it. Don't know this guy anymore. <p>O, So, by letting go, were you still nice to him? Were you happy? Can you pls describe the "letting go" behaviour that I find so hard to grasp? <p>Thanks again to all of you. I'm a little desperate and sad today. Nervous, a wreck, want to jump off a cliff, disappear...all of it.

Terrified,<p>Hang on friend. Keep taking very deep breaths and telling yourself not to do anything rash.<p>Over on IR, I replied to Cali's thread with a description of what I did to distance, when I just could not cope any more. Perhaps there is something in the reply that you could try?<p>I don't have any magical answers for you. I wish I did. I do have a thousand hugs with your name on them. Sending them through to you right now.<p>I'll be thinking of you,

Thanks OD for your thoughts and your much needed hugs. I REALLY need them today. <p>I feel SO HOPELESS, like it's really over. I feel the finality of all of it.

Terrified,<p>I've been following your story for a while now, and I have to say it's one of the saddest ones here.<p>You are desperately trying to hang on to a man who is cold, abusive, neglectful, hateful, and threatens to kill you. A man who is having sex with both you AND at least one other woman. A man who has repeatedly told you he does not love you, and has made this very clear by his actions.<p>You seem to have the idea that because he wants to have sex with you, this means that somewhere deep down he really does love you. He wouldn't want to have sex with you if he didn't, would he?<p>Hon, every girl past high school knows that just because a man wants to get into your pants it DOES NOT mean he loves you. It just means he wants to get into your pants. And that's exactly why your husband keeps coming back -- because you're handing out sex, because you think it means he loves you and somehow it will bring him back to you.<p>You want to let his girlfriend know he's sleeping with you? You think this will upset her because she'll realize that he really loves you and not her?<p>You have got to realize that love has absolutely NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with this terrible situation you find yourself in. This is about a selfish pig of a man who's found himself two women willing to have sex with him even when they both know he's with someone else.<p>Love doesn't do this kind of thing, Terrified. Love doesn't feel anything like this.<p>I know you probably won't listen to me because this isn't standard MB advice. But I would strongly urge you to stop thinking about "love," because there isn't any here, and start thinking about RESPECT.<p>Your so-called husband does not have one drop of respect for you. He's got you right where he wants you -- needy, clinging, desperate, and willing to debase yourself at the drop of a hat by having sex with him when you KNOW he's with someone else. He gets done with you and goes right back to her, and you are willing to go along with this. <p>Why should he change anything?<p>You are making the biggest mistake of all, and believe me, I've made it too: you are sitting and waiting for the cheater to do the right thing and make everything good again.<p>He is not going to do that.<p>You need to get this nasty, poisonous man out of your life RIGHT NOW before he destroys it completely. And believe me, he will. <p>Would you want your daughter to live like this? What would you tell a beloved daughter or friend to do if they came to you with this story?<p>If you do not go to Plan B immediately, I would sincerely wonder about your own state of mind, and ask you very seriously why you are willing to live like this.<p>It's horrible. It's not love. It's abuse, pure and simple. Please tell us you are putting a stop to it now.<p>psycho_b

Dear PB, Thanks for your reply. How do you propose I put a stop to it? Help me. I'm so confused right now that I don't know how to do anymore.

I have to agree with psycho...<p>As a WS, I can't see how your relationship could be better until he comes to you willingly admitting that he did wrong by having the affair, and wanting to totally end things with the OW.<p>It sounds like you might be at the point where your love bank might be endangered by your H's actions. Do you think it's time to go to Plan B to save 1) your love for your husband, and 2) your self-esteem?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Terrified:
<strong> angry with me that I forced him to fall in love with another woman that he cannot have at his side every night.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>How you kept from slapping him behind that comment I will never know.

Terri,
Just wanted to let you know that I'm thinking and praying for you & that you gain some peace, soon. Like the others have said, you did not force him into this other relationship -- he has to take the responisbitlity for that one!
Although my situation is technically different, our S's ay be similar -- constantly focussed on thier needs & always pointing the finger to others for thier bad choices!
Hang in there! Try not to let him beat you down.
When you spoke of him throwing you up against the wall, it makes me think that he is definately out of control & only you know the true rage that he shows in those situations -- I remember a while back he seemed to get physically violent.
You have a good head on your shoulders & I know you have genuine feelings for him, but for right now it sounds like you are much better off to try really hard to dis-associate yourself from him!
At the least you need some time and space to re-group -- like we've talked before.<p>Are you still going to counseling? Perhaps you should be seeing that person more with these issues on the table.
You are at least addressing the issues! Keep up the good work!
Love & prayers to ya,
HH

T,<p>I have to agree with phsyco b here. What life lesson are you teaching your D? Yes, we want to hold on to our M's. Yes, we want to teach our children that love and marriage is not always easy and you have to go through the good times as well as the bad times, but, there is a limit.<p>I believe you really need to start looking into Plan B. His efforts of blaming you and trying to make you hide the seperation are for his own selfish reasons. And frankly, verbally, emotionally abusive.<p>My H has decided to leave. I fought that for a long time. You know what, that only made me look needy and unatractive in his eyes. I was a very strong independent woman when I met my H. Since I have decided that I need him to leave, for my own sanity and health, I am starting to become that strong independent woman again. Asking him to leave, is funny enough, my Plan A.<p>It did take me time to get to the point where I can let him go. I can't explain exactly what happend inside of me to allow the change of attitude to take place, but something just finally snapped and I knew I could not live like this and Plan A. All I would do is continually LB over and over again. Begging him to stay was driving him away.<p>IMO, you need to tell your H that if he is not at home, activly working on M, by your standards, not his, then you can not see him anymore. You will not participate in ugly conversations. You will not allow your D to see you treated this way. It will effect the way she views the roles of both men and women. Ask him if he wants her to grow up and think it's OK for a man to treat her the way he is treating you. <p>All of this is just my opinion. Take what you will from it, but please, protect yourself from this pain. We must all find a way to get through this, I hope you find yours soon.<p>My prayers to you.
Needing