is that it appears to him that it is mostly BS venting and talking about the A.<p>We have talked about the A until neither one of us can talk about it anymore. <p>We are both interested in trying to figure out how to talk about the problems that existed in our M that led up to the A.<p>I would love to hear from BS and definatly WS on this subject. I am hoping to be able to print this out and show it to my H. I will post this in recovery as well.<p>How do you start talking about all the other issues. Pretty open question, I know. <p>I do know that I still have issues with the A that need to be dealt with. I just no longer feel that it is helpfull, in any way, to talk about it outside the structred environment of counseling. I just get to emotional and then all my anger lets loose and I try to hurt my H with my words. (Well one time I tried to hit him, but mostly just words)<p>I would love to be able to point my H to some specific threads here that may help him see that there are WS here trying to work on all issues of M. The affair and the pre A issues that BOTH had/have. <p>I hope this post makes sense. Please, any help is appreciated. My H is currently planning on moving out. (Not sure when) He just does not "feel it" for me or our M and does not know why he should try. I don't need to tell him anymore about how "I desrve another chance" or how "love can come back if we choose to let it". He has heard all of this from me already. <p>I think he is largely concerned with the fact that he does not think that I can or want to make the changes within my self that will make me more attractive to him. He also says that he does not want me to change "for him". That if I am happy with who I am that I should not change. I'm not and have not been for a long time. As I mentioned in another post, I can see alot of changes that I need to make to make ME happy with myself, I have just been to tired since D-Day to do much of anything about it.<p>So, please any help is, as always, appreciated.<p>Needing

<strong>
I would love to be able to point my H to some specific threads here that may help him see that there are WS here trying to work on all issues of M. The affair and the pre A issues that BOTH had/have. </strong><p>Needing,
It sounds to me like you need more time AWAY from the boards, and more time spent on the issues themselves. Having said that, I might suggest that maybe your time is better spent in MC, or reading the other stuff on this website. After all, there is a WHOLE LOT MORE to this website besides all these "frantic" people trying to "fix" their M's (I suspect that's what he's "hearing"). <p>For instance, when I first got here, I didn't even know about the forums....I had gone straight to the Articles and learned a GREAT DEAL from reading those, and the EN's questionnaires, and LB questionnaires. Will he read that stuff, and participate in the ??'s?<p>My other thought is that if you both feel like you've talked "till you can't talk about it anymore" then maybe it is time to just STOP. STOP talking about "it" and just get on with the other stuff. When you "need to talk about it" more, then make an appointment with each other to talk some more, but NOT until infinity anymore!! I guess I just feel like once it's all been said, then "it's all been said...." WHY keep kicking a dead horse? He knows how you feel, he knows what you think. He knows. He knows. Period.<p>Hope there is some good in here somewhere.<p>God Bless,

Great place to start:<p>www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8114_plan.html<p>Following this "Plan" helped us discuss and fix many issues.<p>Good luck--<p>Kathi

My Husband and I have been successfully back together for almost 3 years now, yea! Here is our story: We had only been married 2 years. Things were goign well then we had afew big life upheavals, he was under a lot of stress at his job and he became depressed (which he wouldn't realize/admit until much later). He began an affair with an office temp at his work who wanted to be his "friend" and always used him as a shoulder to cry on about her hard, hard life. Boo hoo. She got fired from the workplace but continued to call him (which he never told me). I went out of town and he agreed to meet her for drinks, that's when the A began. He was behaving very srangley when I got back from my trip. Suddenly angry and distant. Denied anything was wrong. About 2 weeks later I got a weird "feeling" and decided to press redial on the phone when I returned home from grocery shopping. A female answered, I asked for the office temp ( he used to talk about her, telling me how "sorry" he felt for her). It was her. I asked why my H was calling her and she started yelling at me for accusing her of being in an affair, saying she wasn't "that kind of person" and that she hadn't talked to him since she left his workplace. All lies of course. I confronted him, he pleaded "just friends". The next day he told me that she called him at work and "yelled at him" (yeah right) and he told her that they couldn't be friends anymore @@. I threw myself into a full force Plan A (didn't know about this site yet, but got a ton of books with similar ideas). The next 2 weeks were awful. He just got meaner and meaner. Kept telling me to stop being so nice to him. One night he came home and announced that he wanted a divorce, he didn't think he loved me anymore, and that he was NOT having an affair and that we woudl NEVER get back together. He moved out and right in with the OW. He lied to me about where he was living the whole time, vehemently denied the A the whole time. Up until the day we got back together he claimed to never have spoken to the OW since the day after I called her.
I stuck with my Plan A. I made a lot of changes in myself and a lot of realizations about things. During this time my H also made his own realizations abot himself. We were separated for about 5 months, but started seeing each other again after about a month and a half. 2 times he briefly moved home and back out again in afew days, saying he wasn't ready. I went to a regular counselor which was useless for me. She just wanted to prepare me for my marriage ending. Then I went for counseling with a minister. He was very much a believer in saving marriages and the Plan A philosophy and he was a great help and comfort.
When my H was truly ready to come home he broke off the A, told her it was over for good and came home. She called me as soon as he left her driveway and told me everything. At first it was all phony apologies and my "right to know", but when I told her I still loved him and we were staying together she got really mad.
Unlike many other people here we barely discussed the affair. I had already heard more than I wanted to hear from the OW. The only things I needed to know were 1. Was he truly sorry 2. Was he sure he wanted to be with me 3. Was it definitely over 4. Could he promise not to see or speak to her again 5. Was he totally ready to work on the marriage. #4 did get broken afew times with afew phone calls (not unusual) but he knew after that there were no more chances. To me continuously bringing it up and dredging up details would have served no purpose. The OW/affair were never mentioned again after the first 6 months (she totally harassed me for 3 months so she had to be mentioned). There were a LOT of issues I had to get through on my own (still working on some). He was very supportive and doing everything possible to make it up to me, so throwing it in his face would have been counterproductive. We both realized where we went wrong and things started to get much better right away. Communication between us has improved so much. We are now closer and more in love than the day we got married. I never would have thought that such a horrible experience would be the catalyst to such an amazing marriage. Things can be good again, better than they were before as a matter of fact.

I have read all the articles, read SAA. My H is just now starting to look into this site. He has scanned SAA. He is beginning to read the articles and is checking out the boards. Just wanted to maybe point him in the right direction on the boards. I know that this can be a kinda scary place for a WS.

Thanks Fairydust,<p>I love the ending to your story. I hope to be able to write one like that one day.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by needing:
<strong>Thanks Fairydust,<p>I love the ending to your story. I hope to be able to write one like that one day.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I hope you do too. And we are living proof that it IS possible! I agree with Lupo, sometimes you can overtalk things and make the situation worse. After awhile it just starts to become a circle and nothing is getting accomplished. There are things to conquer as a couple, and there is a journey the BS has to walk alone, which isn't always easy. I did a LOT of crying my H never saw or knew about. I did notice that your profile said they have daily contact at work. That can be a big stumbling block. There are people here who have overcome that I think, but for me, absolute no contact of any type was essential for recovery.

needing,<p>as a WS, I tried to talk about the pre-EA issues as well, because to me in them was the problem..
but he didn't want to talk about THOSE..(there were none as far as he was concerned,and still aren't)so it was like talking to a wall..<p>but, some things you can both do..sit down and write down things you feel were problems in the M
and then start with the ones that you both have listed..and then work from there..discuss why you felt they were problems..and figure out ways (brainstorm) ways to work on those things together..<p>hope this helps

I haven't been around as much over the last week or two because I have a very sick little boy, but when I saw this post, I just had to respond.<p>There are a lot more WS's on this site than you realize!!Me being one of them, and I know I have seen other threads where it was requested that WS's respond, and there were lots!!<p>Lupolady had a good point, that it may be time to start spending less time here (readng on the boards) and more time in real life situations with your h! I have learned a great deal here, and as much as I enjoy reading and posting, and seeing how others deal with this, I have learned the best thing for my marriage is less computer time.<p>It's a hard thing to do, but it can be done, I promise [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

TR and Bellea,<p>I know that the pre A issues are a large part of the reason my H is having trouble commiting to giving our M a chance. I was depressed for about a year. I withdrew from him completly. He is very social, I would not go out with him. I gained weight, depressed me even more. I was wrapped up in thinking that I looked terrible, so I must BE terrible. I thought I would be an embaressment to him, that all of his friends would think, what is this great looking, funny, smart guy doing with that overweight hag. Now that I do want to go out with him, he does'nt want me there. Usually because the OW will be in the same group. He says us ever being in the same room would make him to uncomfortable.<p>I would not have sex with him, I would not let him see me naked, I would hide when I changed clothes.<p>This was all very different from the person I was when we were first married. We were very open with each other. Sex was great. Not all the time, after about the first two years it started to be less frequent and stuff, but I just thought that was normal. When we were together it was always great.<p>By the time I realised what I was doing and started trying to make changes, it was to late. He had withdrawn from me and can't figure out how to get back. He is still angry at me for pulling away from him. He said last night that our current marital state is all his fault. That he see's how I can forgive him for the A, that I have owned up to my part of our M problems and how I can let go of the past, but he can't.<p>He also said that he does not know if he likes it better when I am angry than when I am calm. That my anger seems more real to him than my acceptance of where we are.<p>So I don't know what to do. He wont do counceling. He said that he will start looking for a place next week, that he has not done anything about that yet. So, I guess, here I sit. I cannot continue to just live with him like this, without us trying to do anything to re-connect. So I think it's best that he goes.<p>I don't know how to reach him, how to help him forgive me and himself. I know he has a ton of guilt and self anger over what he's done. My parents are going to be here this weekend, they know, and he is going to spend the one night they are all in town at the same time at a friends house and come home after they leave. He even said that he knows he is letting me down again by doing this, but he just cant face them. He knows how hard it's going to be for me to see them for the first time after all of this. I have avoided it for 3 months. I did'nt go home for Christmas for the first time in my life because I was not ready to face them. I'm still not sure I'm ready, but I can't keep my son away from them any longer. They love him to much and they are so worried about me.<p>So I guess what it comes down to is that I am feeling very scared that my M is just over because my H can't forgive me and that there is just nothing I can do. I can't change his mind. I know this. I have stopped trying. But that does not make any of this easier for me to accept.<p>Wow, this got a lot longer than I had planned.
Thanks for listening.

MB can be a helpful place, but I know at times, I felt out of place because most of thhe folks were BS and were divorcing because of an affair. My situation was a bit different and many times I was flayed for not wanting to stay in a bad marriage. <p>My ex originally found this site and got me to take a look. He told me I had an EA and labeled me a WS. To this day, I disagree. I think labeling people is offensive. It has been infered that the WS is depressed, by-polar, in a fog, plain crazy, etc. In some cases, I know it is true, but it also true...sometimes of the BS. How about the person who is a workaholic and spends all their time working or watching sports...is he or she a WS or is that term reserved for the one who wants the divorce for whatever reason. I think it most marriages we have all been wayward to some degree...letting other things take precedence over the marriage. <p>It often seemed to me that no one was willing to listen if I wasn't pained by an affair. <p>In no way am I accusing anyone, but I have witnessesd some of the harshness of these boards and I can see how someone who has been labeled a "WS" could feel out of place.

Dear Needing,<p>Our situations have some similarities. I also gained quite a bit of weight after I was married when I had my children. I also stopped socialising for fear of how my H`s friends would view me. That was fine by my H, I think he was ashamed of me. My H had both a ONS and a longterm EA with two different women. <p>I know exactly how you feel about being overweight. It doesn`t help your self esteem or your sex life one bit. D-day I decided that I was going to lose all the excees weight and I did in about 6 months. I lost 60 lbs. My H was upset because I WASN`T doing it for him. I did it for me. I desperately needed to do SOMETHING to feel better about myself. Even though I did not do it for my H, he benefited from it and it made our recovery easier because by losing the weight then my H wanted ALL THE MORE to save our marriage and keep me. <p>I agree with the others at some point the discussions have to stop and you just need to concentrate of making your H happy and letting him make you happy AND making yourself happy. You won`t be necessarily on the same page at the same time though. It comes in fits and starts. The more good days you have together the easier it is to occasionally bring up past issues. A friendly talk, not a grilling. This is how it`s worked for us. The more time passes and the more comfortable we feel then the easier it is to talk. The issues do need to be addressed but it takes a LONG time.<p>
We have been in recovery for 17 months now. I lost the weight, started going out and socialising, reconnected with my family and friends and got a job. I did none of this for my H. I did it all for me. I am a happier person now which has done wonders for our recovery.

Daisy 37,<p>Oh the weight is coming off. I'v lost just over 25 pounds in the last three months. Easiest thing I've ever done. I can't eat. I actually don't even think about it. I had been working on this already, started working out, personal trainer...the whole bit. I was doing it for me. I was unhappy with myself and finally woke up one day and said, it's time to do something about it.<p>The funny thing is, with the current rapid weight loss, my H is thinking I have an eating disorder, he says he never see's me eat. (Which I do, just usually mid-day and he's not home) I keep wanting to tell him, yeah, I have an eating disorder, it's called Cheating Husband.<p>The weight gain was not an issue for him, it was my issue with myself. I let it affect every aspect of my life and, here's the crux of it for my H, I never talked to him about what I was feeling. How angry I was for letting myself get that way and instead of turning to him and expaining how I felt, about myself, the fears I had about how others would view me, I just turned away. Shut down. Would not let him in. <p>My problem with this is that I am not sure he even tried to hard to find out what was up with me. He never, figurativly speaking, slapped me in the face with my behaviour. He just developed a relationship w/ the OW, had an A and figured our M was over. <p>It's just been a horrible circle, now I want desperatly back into his life, and he does'nt trust me not to go through this again. He lost his love for me during that year of depression and does not think it can come back. If he wont let me back into his life, I can never trust him and am always fearful of the A beginning again. He see's her every day at work. It's killing me, so I told him, after the umpteenth time he said he needed to leave, yes, you do need to leave. Not for you, for me. I can't live like this anymore. She is to much a part of my life with you living here. I have to deal with it to much.<p>Anyway...blah!<p>Thanks for the response. It always helps.

Dear Needing,<p>You are on the infidelity diet. Yup there is actually a name for it. My H also took issue with the amount of food I was eating. He didn`t use the term eating disorder but some members of my family did. I didn`t have an eating disorder, I just exercised my butt off and cut out the junk. <p>The difference between us is that I wanted out of the marriage post d-day. My H is the one who wanted to stay married. All of the changes I made I made for me. I think that that has helped him to regain respect for me. My H had ALOT to change if he wanted to stay married to me. I had to SEE the changes, the changes must be permanent. I was very skeptical at first, but now 17 months into recovery I am starting to feel like the changes are real. <p>You say that you are losing the weight. That is terrific [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] It will take a while though before your H will believe in the changes too. Just keep doing what you are doing. <p>I think that there is always hope until the spouse moves out. If they are still there then there is some part of them that is hoping that things will eventually work out.<p>Once you get all the weight off you are going to feel so much better about yourself. The old you will slowly return, the one your H originally fell in love with.<p>[ January 10, 2002: Message edited by: Daisy37 ]</p>

As a WS, I can say that I've been supported and attacked at about a 50/50 ratio. I'm in a pretty good place now, so I can take the bad to get to the good...but your H may not be there quite yet...or may simply find that the some of the prevalent "attitudes" make the boards more trouble than they're worth for him.<p>The boards are best for me for clarification and perspective...I had made the major decisions before I ever got here. If he's not at that point yet, he may still be a bit too "sensitive".<p>I hope he goes to a good therapist. It's therapy and self-realization that made the true difference for me, not the boards. <p>If he's reading this...please, let me urge you to go to therapy! It's more important than you think. Also...these boards can give you a lot of information, and help to keep things in perspective. If you don't like someone's methodology and they won't make any effort to communicate effectively with you...well, just move on to someone else...there's lots of wise people here [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]