I'm very tempted to give the knee-jerk Harry met Sally answer and say that I want a perfect Harley type marriage. But, do I really? There's a cost... Am I willing to pay it? Is she? I wonder if I'm even able to pay it.<p>The simplest example of cost is time. Improving a marriage requires quality time. I know from personal experience that more time together equals better relationship, but the time has to come from somewhere. Some other aspect of your life has to suffer.<p>If your spouse emphatically chooses you, yet is content with 5 hours of time together each week, is that enough? 5 hours gets you a certain level of closeness and intimacy, is that enough?<p>I have to travel about 1 week per month. That leads to a certain amount of disconnection. A feature I would bring to any marriage. Can I deal with this level of distance?<p>Should I be unhappy if I don't attain the unattainable?<p>I'm really not sure where this question is taking me... I'm really thinking out loud. Unusual for me to be this incoherent.<p>Jeffers

Hey. . .I used to be on here alot, been gone for a while, so I'm not sure if you're a BS, WS, or what. But. . .what do you mean aboutbout "time" . . .some other aspect of you're life has to suffer? Why? You don't have enough time? Hopefully you'll live to be 70, 80, maybe 95. How much time is that? What will you think when you're 95? Will you still be worried about time in the same way when you're 95?

You have to travel? Or it is a choice?<p>But to answer your question, 5 hrs a week enough? Not even close, but one could craft a settled marriage on that basis, long as both parties needed no more than that. But even the harleys suggest 15hrs a week as a minimum....the real question is why would anyone want to be married only 5 hrs a week anyways? Whats the point?

Hi jeffers,<p>Can you estimate the amount of time you and W spent together before the A? I'm not referring
to the "we are both in the house at the same time" kind of together. I'm talking about you and her as a couple involved in one another.<p>Let's assume the 5 hours you have to devote to each other are spent in the courting type interaction, the true eye-to-eye, one-on-one type. Is this head and shoulders more of this type interaction than you had before? Would even five hours be a big improvement?<p>You don't mean 5 total hours simply in each others presence, are you? If so, then there is a fundamental problem.<p>IMO, just because you can't follow the plan perfectly doesn't mean that it is not worth giving it an all out effort to make progress with what you do have. BTW, you say W is satisfied with 5 hours. Are you dissatisfied with it intrinsically or because you feel it doesn't fit the MB plan?<p>There are many marriages that succeed with less than 15 hours per week one-on-one. I think it depends on the needs and the expectations of the couple.<p>Estes

Hi Bitsy,<p>I am BS, W had an internet EA (disputed), dday 4/01. We have been recovering since June.<p>The time pressure is right now. We have 3 kids elem-MS-HS and we are very involved in many of their activities. We've been living the 5 hr/week marriage for the last 10 years or so. Basically the time we share in passing. Even now some of the demands due to children are starting to dissipate.<p>We've developed some divergent interests. My career is very demanding. Those things are expanding into the time being vacated by the kids.<p>We both are going to have to agree not to pursue some of our individual interests in order to spend that time together.<p>Of course, maybe this is all heavily distorted by the time our kids soak up. My impression of a few months ago, when we were devoting > 15 hours to each other, is that it was consuming me totally. I was emailing constantly during the day, etc. Not doing or thinking about *anything* else.<p>I've been trying to reclaim my mind at work lately and have not been doing much emailing to her. W has not given up her evening internet time and we've slowly drifted back down to 5 hrs/week.<p>I'm a professor so I teach and do research. Teaching (at least when I'm well prepared) is a performance that I can turn on and off when needed. I can step into the classroom and instantly focus. <p>My research is a different matter. It takes hours, and hours, and hours of concentration for things to start to make sense. If my thoughts get interrupted I almost have to start over. A typical day has so many interruptions I make almost no progress. All of my real work used to be done at night...<p>I may still be discovering things at 70 and 80... unless I give up that facet of my life. Question is, do I want to? Will I be happier?<p>I know the Harleys talk about how easy it is to find 15 hours. The point is, everyone was using those hours for something before they reallocated them to their marriage. Relaxing time, alone time, all those things are as important for mental health as "activities". <p>I'm sure I've answered your question of why some other aspect of my life has to suffer to give more time to my marriage. I guess I really don't know why, but there just seem to be big effects. I'm trying to figure out the why.

SnL and Estes,<p>You both seemed to ask the same question here.<p>For the last 10 years or so the 5 hours was including family time. I'm not counting time where we were in the same room together but not interacting. (Typically her watching T.V., me preparing coursework.)<p>Now (post A) we really do get 5 quality hours of looking and talking to each other. Most of that is in the morning because it's really hard to carry on a private conversation with teenagers around... and they stay up late.<p>Estes you seem to hit upon exactly my question. I feel disatisfied. Is it because I really want more than 5 hours, or because that's the MB rec. I'm still thinking about that.<p>SnL, we've had this discussion before, I think. I don't look at it as all or nothing (and who gets to determine the definition of *all*). Am I happy with a 5 hour marriage? That's what I'm wondering. I may not be capable of tolerating more than 5 hours - maybe my W can't either. If so, this is a perfect match, not a disaster... It could also be the case that we're just behaving like idiots!

jeffers....<p>Interesting question. My H also travels abt 1 week a month, on average; we have 2 kids & are very involved in their activities; I work, etc... time is a precious commodity. Two years ago, H was in an EA with a co-worker...I know that in the months before he/she realized they were getting too close, they spent a lot more time together than he and I did.<p>When we first were rebuilding, the marriage got a lot of attention, los of heart-to-hearts, and the emotional connected-ness bloomed. Two years later, all of the rest of life is creeping back in, and the connection is still good, but not "throbbing" like it was at one time. And I fear it fading more. <p>So, I think about this question myself...and wonder what the answer is for me. I do think 15 hours results in a much stronger, more "alive" connection than 5 does. But some weeks we can't manage it. When he travels, we are lucky to be able to leave each other short voicemails and maybe actually talk every other day or so. The other problem is that when he travels he is working pretty intensively, break away to spend 15 min talking to me and he never has long enough to switch from "efficient mode" to "lover mode". Heck, even when he is home, it often takes him half the evening to switch modes...and that IS a problem to me. Little point is spending time together if it is "mind elsewhere time" versus "quality time".<p>It is tough. Our counselor told him that if he truly values the relationship, he needs to approach it with "intentionality". In other words, form the intention to take action and make the time it needs, not let it just get the shreds left over after all else. <p>She also observed that our kids activities are our biggest shared interest, and strongly suggests we find some hobby or activity that we both enjoy to do together, before the kids leave home. Worth thinking about.<p>I guess I'd say that to me, 15 hours a week would be great, but I can manage on less. 5 hours of "leftover" time though doesn't cut it. 5 hours of time that is truly devoted to touching the other deeply (thoughts & feelings, not "how was work") probably would suffice, but it takes more time for us to get down to that level. 10 hours a week probably would be fine on the weeks he is intown. If I feel strongly connected to him when he leaves, and hear a few "fuzzies" from him while he is gone, I still feel connected when he returns.<p>Kathi<p>[ January 13, 2002: Message edited by: kam6318 ]</p>

jeffers, your question is an interesting one, especially the idea that your wife is content with 5 hours a week. How much time a week was she getting from you when she had the EA? <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> We've been living the 5 hr/week marriage for the last 10 years or so. Basically the time we share in passing. <hr></blockquote> And you want to continue this pattern? I'm not sure I would rely so completely on her statement that 5 hours is enough. <p>I tend to think of it as a matter of priorities. To say that following their children's activities closely leaves little time for a couple's marriage is a misunderstanding of children's needs. What children need more than ballet lessons, soccer games and assorted activites are parents who love each other and make the marriage the cement of the family. IMHO, everything else has to give way to a child's urgent need for stability in the home. I don't even think I would be still in this marriage were it not for my children's need to have married parents. That said, our marriage is recovering well, and we are happy together.<p>Very few people on this site can argue with me that their spouse is gone too much for them to spend time with. My husband (an airline pilot) is away from home 3 to 4 days a week, spending up to 4 nights away, every week. Some weeks, we spend only two days together. This has meant that we can't indulge ourselves in a lot of hobbies, or a lot of social time away from each other. Big deal. I don't want to find myself divorced, surrounded by a bunch of d*mn craft projects. I would much rather be married, although I agree it's hard. I don't like giving up reading as much as I'd like, plus I can't spend much time here when my husband is home.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> The point is, everyone was using those hours for something before they reallocated them to their marriage. Relaxing time, alone time, all those things are as important for mental health as "activities". <hr></blockquote>It's really a matter of deciding what the risks are (of not giving the marriage the time), and then deciding if you want to accept them. I can't live with them.<p>Rose Red

I don't think 5 hours would work for me either..although..5 hours a week would be a lot more than I had in the past 10 years..sooo..it would have been an improvement..which is why I
am getting divorced..I was lucky to get 48 hours of his time a month..and even that wasn't alone time..that was w/ 3 kids, and his drinking..so drop that down even less..and time was not even there..<p>So I guess it would mean looking at what you have and making the best of it..

my H and i were just discussin this yesterday driving in the pu...we just DONT have the TIME To fix our marriage. He works from 6am-8pm 6 days a week. I work 24/7 raising kids and doing housework and then i am also a part time student, which my classes are in the evening. We have five children and I do do most of the raising. He comes home very tired and usualy sleeps through 8-9 takes a hsower and goes to bed. Occassionaly he stays awake to talk. but not usually. So our questions too...is...how much is too much and not enough?<p>Another question posed to me was: "what do u want in our marriage?

my answer was: I want a healthy marriage. one that consists of trust, respect, love and kindness. I want to know that i can trust u with my heart and what ever i have to say and encourage me and stand behind the decsisions i make..... or we make which ever<p>it isnt about quantiy of time...it is quality of time. (IMHO)<p>mercy

Kam,<p>All I can say is, WOW! That's almost exactly what I'm dealing with. <p>Our connectedness did bloom during the summer, when we had lot's of time for each other. Then fall, and school, hit. So, it wasn't really a gradual move back to where we were before and we're not really back to the same place. <p>Things feel quite a bit different now (as opposed to pre-A). I remember being angry all the time about the quality and quantity of attention. The worst time for me was thinking that the only thing tying us together was our kids. We're getting closer to the time when they will be leaving the nest... I was seeing no reason for us to be together beyond that point. The EA stuff came up about a year after that. <p>OTOH not too long before that I remember pulling into our driveway and realizing how broadly I was smiling... I was where I really wanted to be. This is the way I'm feeling again.<p>I keep hoping that the activity overload is a temporary feature of our lives and things will eventually calm down and leave time for us. <p>I find that once we do get connected that I desire to spend more time with her. When we lose the connection I just don't want to put forth the effort to build it again. That is why travel is so painful for me right now. <p>Hearing that others are going through similar stuff is comforting. I'm sad that you are feeling this too, but I don't feel quite so alone.<p>Jeffers

jeffers,<p>After knowing MB and understanding that a fullfilling M could be attain, we do not want our old M back full w/ holes and danger of A. I am willing to do whatever it takes to attain that w/ or w/o my WW. 5 hours is not enough at all. I have seen a coworker that spend almost every weekend together, RA in boating (they don't know MB) and I envy their M. They are "in love".<p>I know sometime it is hard and we have to live with what we could only for short time and working toward the bigger picture. However you have to make sure an POJA is in place and look for a danger sign of falling out. Having 5 hours for longer period is putting your M at risk.

I know my opinion is not a popular one, but here goes...<p>Is it possible to put some type of limits on the kids' activities? I mean, how much ballet, soccer, swim team, etc..does a kid need? I agree with Rose Red...kids do need more 'in-home' interaction than outside activity. Family game night is a great way for ALL of you to improve your relationships. And I also believe you make time for what is most important to you. <p>I also don't think there is a 'set' number of hours that I have to attain to have a happy marriage...some weeks we spend a lot of time together, other weeks it's a crunch but somehow it evens out.

Rose Red,<p>your question:
How much time a week was she getting from you
when she had the EA? <p>Probably almost none, but it's more complicated than that. Classic EN stuff: me following her around for some sign of affection, her interpreting it as only wanting SF and so was repulsed. The little SF we had filled up my lovebank (for affection and SF) enough that I was able to give her what I thought she wanted (distance)- this proved to her that I only wanted SF cuz afterwards I stayed away from her. She wanted openness, I told her only the stuff I thought she really wanted to know (not much at all).<p>Then, she took in two of her niece's children (they were being neglected) and we raised them for 8 months (along with our three). I was withdrawing from everyone at that point (MLC) so she had the huge burden of managing *everything*. She was resenting my low level of participation, what interactions we had were stressful, and the internet became her escape.<p>So, I think that what little time we did spend together always had some undercurrents of a struggle to it. It was safer to be apart. <p>In many ways, even with what seems like a small amount of time together, this is the best our marriage has ever been. We actually understand each other better, don't play quite so many games with the time we are together. I can now see what we'd been missing all those years (21 of them).<p>You seem to be echoing the views of one of my favorite columnists (John Rosemond). His view is that a happy marriage and stable family are the best gifts parents can give their children. Much more important than "activities". We've placed limits on how many things each child is allowed to do, to limit each kids "busy"ness. We didn't take into account the affect of the activities on "us".<p>I tend to "focus on the problem, not the solution" a little too much. It sounds like you've solved a much more difficult problem than we face. But, that's why I started this thread: to hear these things and get that kind of encouragement.<p>Thanks,<p>Jeffers

Thorned Rose,<p>I guess that's sort of what I was feeling, it's a huge improvement... I'm still getting used to what it feels like. Maybe it's not enough, or maybe it's just enough for right now.<p>mercy,<p>We had that same experience: we could look at each other and see that we were'nt choosing to ignore each other. It really took the shock of the EA to make us see what it (lack of time together) was doing to us. <p>I look to the future and see things getting better (timewise). The more I think about this thread, the more I think that is what has to happen.<p>Jeffers

Hey, Redhat!<p>We pat ourselves on the backs because we're so involved in the community. A lot of the parents we know just drop their kids off at the activities that we make possible. Then, they get to go home and spend time with each other. Geez, who's really the smarter couple?<p>Fortunately, a lot of the stuff we're doing with end as the kids get older. In fact, our 15yo is now doing several things that don't involve us - HS activities tend to be managed and supervised by school personnel.<p>If we do decide to continue community service after our kids are gone, we can at least choose to do something together.<p>diddallas,<p>We had to start limiting the kids activities a few years ago for their survival. They wanted to do everything, but when they got overloaded they would lose their desire to do anything. Now, they get to do one 'major' activity at a time. <p>The big problem is that we have always been involved in their activities (coaches, den mother, PTA board, band boosters, BSA leader, etc.) With so many things going on it seemed that the "crunch" would sometimes last for months.<p>I feel like a "good" parent because of all this effort, but I think it's really time to start backing off.<p>Jeffers

Jeffers, what a nice, thoughtful reply! Yes, I love John Rosemond, too. Between him and Willard Harley, I don't know why I can't have the perfect life! (Uh...because everybody I know doesn't follow them, too?)<p>I also focus on the problem, spend way too much time analyzing every little sigh, and take my emotional temperature every half hour. This makes me an unhappy BS, but I am trying now to stop all this. I'm only about a week into trying to restrain myself from agonizing and brooding, but so far it's been wonderful. My husband has done everything he possibly can to help me, but I have only just been able to enjoy this a little. However, the issue of finding time in our marriage is the one thing that I feel pretty sure about. Naturally, I was anxious to jump right in and look like I know something!<p>Ooops! Gotta run, but I liked your statement <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I find that once we do get connected that I desire to spend more time with her. When we lose the connection I just don't want to put forth the effort to build it again. <hr></blockquote>Especially if your marriage has had trouble, spending the time together to get the two of you back on track together can seem like drudgery.<p>Rose Red<p>P.S. What do you teach?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>A lot of the parents we know just drop their kids off at the activities that we make possible. Then, they get to go home and spend time with each other. Geez, who's really the smarter couple?<p>Fortunately, a lot of the stuff we're doing with end as the kids get older. In fact, our 15yo is now doing several things that don't involve us - HS activities tend to be managed and supervised by school personnel...<p>...The big problem is that we have always been involved in their activities (coaches, den mother, PTA board, band boosters, BSA leader, etc.)<hr></blockquote><p>Hon, is that you??? [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I'm laughing because your home and ours sound so similar. We have a 16 year old and a 9 year old, and between the two of us, we have a Girl Scout leader (me) and Destination Imagination coach (him), two PTA jobs (me), and we share Church Council (co-chairs). It IS better now that son is in HS and some of his activities are less demanding of parent time. And, now (new development) he can even drive himself up to the HS on Saturday for a practice....wow!<p>It's really not that either kid has that many separate activities, but that between the two of them, plus church, a lot of evenings and weekends are interupted. Then there is my H's travel time. So, while there IS adequate time avaible, you kind of need to schedule some "alone" time. Hence, the counselor's suggestion about making a commitment to couple time...scheduling it ensures that you do end up with a regular date night, or lunch alone (family game night, as someone seuggested is OK, but it is no substitute for one-on-one time).<p>So, one of our renewed resolutions is to get out the calendar once a month and block out time for us.<p>We'll see how it goes [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] .<p>Kathi

jeffers,<p>It has to be one-on-one jeffers !. Doing activity together is an EN of Recreational Activities it is not subtitute for "TIME".<p>Yes, it is constant negotiation of time & need, risk & reward. I screw up my M since I took too much risk and thinking W "in it" with me all along. She wasn't honest and bailed out w/o telling me.<p>You could do 5 hours only for so long and both of you have to be radically honest in it. When you think that it is starting impacting the M; even when you start to think about it or wonders, red flag should be rised up. When this happens both of you have to decide which one is more improtant and for how much longer you could take "the risk".<p>When are you visiting bay area again ?. O & rep are wondering too.

Since I've taken a back seat to just about everything else, I'm not willing to settle for anything less than being the #1 priority in my H's life. My pre-A high was #4, behind TV, the sport he competes in, and his family of origin. My new high is #5, having been bumped by OW and/or the second life that spawned A--won't give up his separate life that excludes me. I settled for more than 10 years. I'm done settling. If I have to bear the scars of his adultery for the rest of my life, I want everything else I gave up on before the A.<p>I guess I want it all or nothing as far as H goes, but I intend to have it all with someone else if he opts out. Surely there's one man on earth who'll make me the most important part of his life if I do the same for him, don'tcha think?
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