Hi,
It has been some time since I have been here because I have been thinking about the replies that I received from my past postings. Thank you for your replies. They really hit home. And now I need more that will hopefully ground me again. I gave great thought to telling my H about the roses and the slippers that I received from the OM. So, I did tell him and he understood why I lied. He does not blame me for the gifts as they were not something that I "asked for". The night that I received the 31 long stem roses was the night he was at my house cooking my friend and I a birthday dinner. He knows that that night would have been wrecked if I would have come home and told him. I was shocked that he took this so good, but two days later he stated that he did not like that the roses were hanging in the laundry room to dry and the slippers were still on my feet. Well, I am having a hard time letting go of these "material" items. My H does not live with me, but he comes over here to do his laundry and visit. Yes, I should be getting rid of them. But why can't I? I promised my H that I would not contact the other man, but I am having a hard time with this. I have no passion for my husband; mainly bc when we have been intimate, only his needs are being met (which he so kindly apologizes to me afterwards). I wonder why I keep putting myself in a vunerable position with my H for him to keep hurting me. He knows that one of my EN's is not being met. <p>I have asked him to come back home, let's start fresh, let's start having good times together. He said no. I have made a decision NOT to live in a state of "unhappiness" one more day in my life. I do not want to be around depressed people, pouting people, and that includes myself. I have chosen to start every morning HAPPY and surround myself with people who are happy, upbeat. I am not meaning that SH** doesn't happen, but I am talking about people that are negative all day long and have nothing good to say. But what about my H? He gets down... and I feel bad for him. But I mentally, do not want that life. It sucks every ounce of energy out of me and then I am no good at work or at home with the boys. My H has always leaned on me for everything that you can imagine... and now I want him to start doing some soul searching of his own, but he will not. He wants to come to me and have me fix him, but I can't anymore. Well, obviously I never could. Well, I want to call the OM. I would actually prefer to get on a plane and go see him. But that is not realisitc. I have called the OM once since ending the A, and I told my H. Now, if I call again.... I HAVE to tell him OR lie AGAIN. And I am sick of lieing. My first and only EA/PA was for 7 days in person (in Europe) and 3 months over the phone and e-mail. It was such a short time and I was the one that chose to end the affair to work on my marriage. But it is so hard to throw away an incredible time I have experienced. You know, last week I wanted my marriage and did not feel this way. I wanted to come clean with my lies and now this week, I have no passion, no love for him, I do not want to talk with him..... should I just be patient and hold off on the phone call to OM? This post confuses me when I re-read it; I feel that I am all over the place with my feelings [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Thanks for the ear [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] (FH: Faithful Husband)

Well yeah,
You have to decide what you want and what for. Then go for it.<p>To me, it sounds like your affair was an act of hostility toward your husband, which is maybe why you can't shake the resentment you have.<p>I think that you were very brave and courageous to confess everything to your husband. I don't know if it made you feel as good as you thought it would in the long run tho... because your H did not and will not come home (?) Keeping the slippers and roses when you know that it hurts your husband is wrong.<p>Being around depressed people can't depress you any more than being around happy people can make you happy. However, it DOES sound like your husband tries to put way too much on your shoulders emotionally(?) Like sort of a victim mentality--and not just because of the affair? Maybe due to how he was raised. Perhaps some individual counseling would help you both work through this, then come together?<p>Well, all I can offer you is that your marriage didn't get to this state overnight and it's not going to heal overnight because there are a lot of habits that need to change. <p>For one, letting your husband get his rocks off while you just lie there and let him is not good! Can you stop him or slow him down and/or perhaps show him what you want or need from him sexually? Nothing wrong with telling him or showing him however many times it takes. I mean, I don't think it is fair for you to complain about his style of lovemaking when you permit it! You know? <p>You are going to have to work on your communication, girl! Let him know that you can't keep him "fixed" any more and why. Why not call Steve Harley and make an appointment for phone counseling if you can afford it?<p>[ January 15, 2002: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</p>

BMWM, <p>I agree with BIN on pretty much every point.<p>Communication is KEY! If you have unmet needs, you need to tell your H. Not only do you need to tell him, but you need to tell him in a manner in which he'll listen and understand (you know- Martian speak [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ).<p>Any contact that you make with OM will only serve to EXTEND your unhappiness. You DO know that, don't you? Here's what'd happen... You call, you feel good, you've gotten your fix. Then the guilt sets in, you anguish over whether to TELL or to LIE. You either choose to tell, bringing your H down (and consequently setting back your recovery), or you lie, causing YOU more unhappiness (and setting back your recovery). And the cycle repeats indefinitely (eternal unhappiness for everyone).<p>You get the point? If you choose to be "happy" for an little while and call OM, you'll pay back that "happiness" ten fold in sorrow and grief. I hope you can believe this.<p>Now your other alternative is to NOT call OM. What does that buy you? Well, you remain unhappy until you're able to finally let OM go for good (this is called withdrawl). In the mean time, you keep the slippers and roses because they remind you of OM (and bring a little joy to your life), but this makes H unhappy - and you get nowhere (That's well documented on this site, no significant love bank deposits until withdrawl is gone). But once you're no longer holding onto OM, the keeping of the slippers and roses will bother YOU, and getting rid of them will sound like a much better idea. That'll make H happy, both of you can begin to make deposits, and I'd bet he'll choose to move back too.<p>Now remember, this is just my take on all of this, but I'm experiencing similar troubles with some gifts that my W has received recently, and won't part with.<p>Please take care!
Kev

bmwm, you will get the usual replies and advice re the issues you raised. I agree with that, but I want to comment on something else, for what it is worth.<p>You mention the sense you have your H wants you to fix things...that may (or may not) be an important observation. Personality disorders come in many flavors, one is the victime mentality, or woe is me startegy. Such people try to control (we all control, it is malfunctioning control efforts that mess things up, and it is not all done by anger), those around them by making them responisble, and feeling sorry for him. This works well with giving, emphatic, rescuing type people, but it is just as toxic as anything else. It sets up a parent child relationship, not an egalitarian oneflesh bond. These people often are very good at eliciting sympathy for others in their plight...and can often be very nice, likable, hardworking people, they just can't hold up their end of a marriage emotionally. It is THEIR problem, just like anger or anything else. People must fix their own personality disorders, it is terribly unfair, and dishonest to marry someone, and then (as the marriage reveals the conflict) expect them to make it all right. <p>No one has a responsibility to fix or even live in marriage with, a dysfunctional spouse. One of the more distrubing things about alot of marital doctrine is the idea that for better or worse means accepting and supporting dysfunctional behaviour, it does NOT mean that at all. People with behaviours/obsessions/addictions etc. remove themselves from the marriage... Some would argue with this, why? Marriage is about intent, you cannot love right if you have these issues, so the marriage was flawed, it was a self-serving effort to get someone to meet your needs. So why would your spouse be bound by this deception (intended or not). <p>From what I have observed, too often marriage is a lifetime of meeting the needs of a dysfuntional partner, and waiting/hoping someday they will be "cured"....psychology tells us this rarely happens, and that our behaviour is essentially enabling the dysfunction, and we become co-dependent....is this God's plan for marriage? I don't think so, but it could be satans plan, in an effort to disrupt what God made marriage to be. IMO the key ingredient in any hope a dysfunctional individual will change their ways is to lose something valuable, sometimes it is a brush with death, serious illness, other times it could be great harm to an innocent bystander, sometimes it is loss of a marital relationship. A marriage should never be sacrificial, it should be equal, and if it is not action needs to be taken, with the final action ending it if need be. <p>Re the om, tough call, you did not contact him, but IMO an affair (whether you are right for each other or not) needs to end. It does not mean you do not know he exists, or need to lie to yourself re your feelings.... but you need to focus on what you are going to do with the marriage. Nor is it fair to your H to actively be in contact, calling each others home, sending stuff to each others places. There is a fine line between acknowleging your feelings, and acting on them. He should not be filling your EN (nor you him) during this time, the pursuit needs to stop, as you each get your lives in order independently. This is really hard if you are truly friends, much easier if it was just a stupid infatuation, but whatever it is, you cannot emotionally carry on two on-going romantic relationships, both will suffer, and you will be the dysfunctional one. I am a little concerned about your affair though, it sounds like it was a quick thing while on a visit to europe, followed by some emails/phones etc..... that would be a very low likelihood of working out, you did not make friends first (I assume), got physical very quickly (always bad), he comes from a different enviroment (he is european?), and is he married? If not, why would he be messing with a mw not from around here, when he is prbably dating all sorts of women. If he is worthy, he will be around if your marriage dissolves, but to continue to pursue him while decideing what to do makes no sense, nor should he encourage you too. I think it does sound like an effort on your part to solve your marital unhappiness, rather than truly finding someone you could make a life with. Your marriage may very well not work, but that should be the focus now, one way or the other, and if it ends give yourself time to heal, and go about finding a new mate, one you can fit right, and do it the right way.

Thanks for the replies. I guess I am a fool to believe that when you truly love someone, you do not have to tell them "time and time" what your needs are. I feel like a broken record and sometime I wish that he was the person sitting there trying to save this marriage. Again, like the 8.5 years of being with him, it is me sitting there saying what needs to be changed (no drugs in our life; reduce the alcohol consumption; spend more time with the family (TV does not count); show affection to the boys; communicate with everyone in this house. Start living!!! And now, it seems like I am doing the same thing again, but now showing him and teaching him. Who said that I had to be his teacher? When I know the answer to a question that he asks, I feel selfish by withholding the answer. I do not want to be his guide. I do stuff that is not right too and I have to figure it out on my own; he is not there to say "Try this".... I just got off the phone with my H and I told him that I wanted to call the OM last night, but I did not. This is what I wanted to hear. "Thank you for calling me instead, and thank you for feeling close enough to me that you could share this with me. It hurts me that you wanted to call him, but we can get through this". Instead, I heard, "And you think that I am going to move back in when you are still thinking about OM and now you want to call him? When you NEVER think about him again, is when I will come home." Is this PAR for the course? Is this reaction the norm? If it is, then I will put my chin up and take it. It just does not feel good. Today, I will get rid of the roses and the slippers. <p>I felt like I accomplished nothing for "our marriage" by calling H and telling him this. I am being honest. All he sees is the as 100% negative. I am trying not to act on my impulses.... but then H punches me down and all I want to do is cry and say..... "Get out your binoculars and see that I love you and I always have." "WHERE ARE YOU??????"<p>I am depressed. The doctor wants me on anti-depressants and wanted me to take 4 weeks off work. Times are really busy at work and I have chosen to work instead. My work knows what is going on and they have basically said "take it day to day." But I don't want to take the meds. But then times like this make me want to go on them because I feel so down and out, and so ready to run and hide and block him out for a period of time.

Sad'n'lonely:<p>You made me cry.. I have never heard anyone say anyhting like you did. That is me. You have put my feelings down on paper and I have never been able to put them into words. Just the feeling that I have, that is so torturous. I do feel like he is toxic. It could start off with "I could never work as hard as him", thus me helping him; or I could never be as tired as him, thus me taking care of everything in the home. I am drained. Emotionally and physically. One thing that I wanted to ask you though , is that part about being completely seperated during the time of withdrawl. He will not allow it. When it did happen for two days (he was out of town working), I felt like things were coming together and that is when I started to have feelings of "wanting the marriage more than anything in my life". But I only have those feelings when he is not around. Perhaps it has something to do with what he draws from me.. or how much he draws (drains) from me when he is around. So my question is, where is the literature on this website that you are talking about? I must have missed that entire section on withdrawl. Can you please point me to it?

TAKE THE MEDS!!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I was also very resistent to getting on medication. I was afraid that they'd "dope" me up, that I wouldn't be able to think or feel clearly, that I'd go blind - I don't know what all. But when I reached the point of absolutely not being able to control myself, my mood swings, or my potential for damage, I KNEW it was time. I've made VERY FEW better decisions in my life. Think of them this way... If you had cancer, would you accept treatment for that? Well, the anti-depressants are EVERY BIT a life saver as the treatment for cacer - I believe that with all my heart.<p>To answer your question, yes it is normal for BS to react this way (SOMETIMES). It sounds like your H just doesn't get it. There were problems in your M BEFORE the A, and he has half the guilt for THAT. All he can see is his anger, and indignation. All he wants to do is punish you, and for you to wallow in your guilt. Hopefully, in time, he would get over that and start to work on forgiveness, but why should you have to wait for that? He doesn't understand what's at stake here, and he's acting like a child.<p>I don't know what the answer is for you. On some level, you have a responsibility to make yourself heard, to communicate. But then again, HE has some responsibility to LISTEN, and it doesn't really sound like he's been very successful in that. Sometimes that's the sender's fault for not speaking in a language that can be understood, sometimes it's the receiver's fault for just not plain wanting to listen. Only the two of you (or maybe one of you) can figure out which is which.<p>You're NOT a fool. But just realize that we're basically lazy animals- we'll pretty much do as little as necessary to maintain status quo (often, anyway). As such, some of us (usually the guys [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ) will need a periodic reminder. Now if it's more than periodic, then you've fallen into the "who's not sending/who's not receiving" thing.<p>Know this, I believe you did the right thing in telling your H about your desire to call OM, and I think you're doing the right thing by getting rid of the gifts. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>SNL- just a couple of BRIEF comments, don't want to hijack her thread.<p>Marriage is BOUND to be flawed, because we're flawed humans....we cannot be perfect.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>egalitarian oneflesh bond <hr></blockquote><p>Careful there, you MIGHT be contradicting yourself from another thread in which you mentioned something along the lines of humans being selfish and there being no such thing as (unselfishness, good of all, egalitarianism, etc....).<p>Take care, both of you.
kev

I have always believed in living and loving... but when you live with someone who will not share themselves with you, it is hard to rejoice in happiness everyday of your life. Typically, for years... an average day at my house was... H finishing work off with a joint, coming home to dinner, getting on the couch, watching TV, drinking beer, and not connecting with us. Now where I fit into this was.... on commercial breaks I was allowed to talk to him, I might even be asked to get a beer on my way upstairs (no joke)... and I would cuz "I am the good wife giving her man what he wants." But problems arose in the bedroom that same night when all I wanted to do was fall asleep, sometimes I would even get a stomach ache at bedtime (no joke). Then it was "You are cold". I made a deal with him that it would potentially have a chance in happening if he came to bed sober and not stoned. Was that too much to ask of me? Well, 6 nights out of the seven he would come to bed under the influence. Some nights I would give in and those nights were nights when he was only taking care of himself. No I can clearly see that I allowed all of this to happen, but I honestly thought that he would wake up and see what our mariage was like. But he didn't. Now the A has happened and it has drawn the attention away from where and how I lived for all of those years. I started volunteering and met wonderful people. He was asked to join me, but never did (out of his comfort zone - no couch - his exact words). So.... back to living and loving.... I have drawn a line in the sand I have told him what I NEVER want again, but he is not willing to open up to me and communicate. He has a past that I know little about and I think that is where there is some hurt. I believe that is where the root of his evil lies. When he was 13, his parents divorced. Dad left Mom for Mom's best friend. They are married now and very happy. Chris loves his dad very much and told me that he was hurt that everyone thought his dad was the bad guy for what he did, but it came out later that his mom was schitzophrenic. But at the age of 13, that is when he started smoking cigarettes and pot.... and has every day for 15 years. He has pain inside. I can see it in his eyes. I can hear it in his silence. I have asked him to talk to me about it, but he won't. What I have learned is from my H's brother. So, about the withdrawl stage for me and getting over the affair... is this when my H should be looking at what he has inside and sorting this out FINALLY. I have asked him to. I told him that seen as we both know we want the marriage but are not living together, this time is a golden opportunity for both of us to find ourselves and come back together (over time) and embark on a new adventure of learning about the other person.. and wanting to share 100% of your life with each other. His answer was NO. He needs me by his side to help him do it. Well, I have been there for 8 years... and I have run out of ways to try and get into his heart. He knows me inside and out... I tell him everything. But I am still waiting... is this part of the dysfunctional personality that sad'n'lonely talked about?
You know, I have only been here on this website for less than one month and this is only reason why I would quit my job..... so I could stay at home and learn about life. You have all been very inspirational and I welcome the criticism openly.
Thank you [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

While I can't begin to advise you about the pot/booze problem--something I've never had to deal with, thankfully--I do want to applaud your decision to get rid of the 'evidence'. If I was your spouse, I could never look at those items and NOT think about the OM. If you really want your marriage to work, you have to stop all contact with the OM---even that which is only in your head.<p>I have just recently (in the last few days) made a conscious effort not to think about the OM...even thinking about the time we spent together/what might have been/etc...was being unfaithful and stole from the quality of the marriage.<p>Are you guys in counseling? Will he go? I think it's invaluable.

I agree with you about removing the OM from the picture entirely. There is no way on earth that I could possibly continue with the A and work on my M. It was driving me crazy.....but what I have learned here today is that I have not let go 100%, and I am not giving my M 100%. The OM is encouraging me to do what I need to do. He does not contact me anymore, as I asked him to stop. Counselling- I go but H does not. His choice. I do not want to force the issue on him, but I think he is waiting for me to do it for him, call the counsellor, make the appointment. This is just one other thing that he will not do on his own. Should I call for him? Or is that enabling him to have me do everything for him "as usual"? How long has it taken for you to decide to not think about the OM? For me, it has been 4 months since A started and 4 weeks without contact. ( I slipped up once and told my H). It has been easy for me to accept that I have chosen my marriage, that is truly what I want, but my pattern is to turn to OM when my H and I start fighting/LB's.

bw....One thing that I wanted to ask you though , is that part about being completely seperated during the time of withdrawl. He will not allow it. <p>snl..Not allow? He has no choice, no human being (in our country, with our laws) can force their presence on another without their permission, not even a spouse. There may be consequences of course, people get angry, refuse to participate in counselling, make financial threats, lots of stuff....but IMO reactions like those come from people you don't want to be married to anyways...IMO separation and how it is handled reveals the truth, the real truth about a relationship. Many avoid this step, and if they are really really motivated and each pulls their weight can reconcille..... but large numbers of reconcilliations fail, and I think it is cause people have not seperated and seen what is really true......<p>bm...When it did happen for two days (he was out of town working), I felt like things were coming together and that is when I started to have feelings of "wanting the marriage more than anything in my life". But I only have those feelings when he is not around. <p>snl...Take what I am about to say with a large grain of salt, it is only my opinion. I think when people start to feel good about life (and especially themselves) when the their spouse is gone, it is reflective of a toxic relationship, and quite possible a marriage that should not be. Many spouse are detrimental to the emotional/psychological well-being of who they are married too. It does not mean they are bad people or deliberately hurtful/abusive....but they (and you in reverse) do not fit each other very well....could even be good friends, but not intimate partners.....they do not know how, and never will, be able to nurture you, and in fact diminish you. Sometimes it is pretty bad, and we can all recognize it and chastise the poor behaviour....otherimes it isn't so clear...unless you are the one married to them. No matter how much people post here, no one really knows what it is like to be married to someone, it is an entirely different thing, completely invisible to the rest of the world. So when we hear things like you don't seem to have it so bad, your spouse seems ok..... maybe they are, but those saying that do not have to wake up next to this person everyday for the rest of their lives, they can't really ever know how the person fits you....but in so saying it should work, it makes us feel guilty, like there is something wrong with us, so you (we all) must be radically honest with ourselves.... we all know, if we look hard enough, if someone fits us, if we are in-love with them (not caring love them), if they are out safe place, where we never ever have to gaurd, and they will never hurt us, but nurture and blossom us... (and we them, not cause we have to, but because we must, we can't not want to...).<p>The second part of your statement I think is common too. Humans hate to give up, take emotional risk and start over, reject someone (and cause them pain) so we fall in-love with the picture of being in-love (commonly referred to as denial..of rhe reality). We have hopes, and dreams, and we are so certain the marriage will fit the fairytale if we (and spouse) just "change". I suspect when he is gone it is the "dream" you miss and want....and when he is their you deal with the reality. So many people here describe their spouses as not the person they married, and if they would just change they could be so happy....well ya know what?<p>1. They are the person you married, we are not robots with programming options. We are integrated human beings....but what happens when we date, or even maary, we wear masks, so the spouse won't know the real us, cause they might not choose us....eventually the mask slips, and you see the real deal, and you come to grips with whether you still can or want to love the real deal, many times you cannot but for awhile you try to convince yourself it isn't really who they are.<p>2. Yep, if they would change enough you could be happy (and the corollary is you changing enough), the trouble with this notion is that if one or both of you change enough, you are not who you are anymore, so of course we have this "picture" of who someone could be if we were God and can remake them. By all means learn relationship skills, not to love bust, and try to get real with who you are (and communicate that), and if that clears up the problems..great...but expecting someone (or yourself) to fundamentally change who you are, is taking it too far.....and in addition, people with deep seated personality disorders rarely overcome them, it is who they are....you either adjust to it, and the restrictions it places on how deep you can bond, and how much they will ever be there for you. (or you them, remember this works both ways, you might not be good for them either, even if they want you = dependent)<p>bm...Perhaps it has something to do with what he draws from me.. or how much he draws (drains) from me when he is around. <p>snl...Yes, I call this phenomena emotional vampireism...or the black hole effect. Many people suck the emotions right out of you, and give little if any back....oft times these are very needy people (it is their manipulative strategy), and it is hard to get angry (for a normal, caring person), cause they are.....well so needy and pathetic emotionally, and make you feel sorry for them. It amazes me how prevalent this is, even in the stories on this board their is a strong current of it in bs and ws alike. Eventually you are drained and either become chronically depressed, and a shadown of who you should be.....or you become angry and resentful....and then feel guilty for "hurting" them such as by having an affair (which was more akin to a drowning person gasping for air, then it is an affair). A needy person is hard to leave, they are just as abusive as an angry person, but much easier to leave someone who is angry and mistreats you aggressively.... what is not so obvious is a needy, clingy person is every bit as abusive, just sneakier about how they control you.<p>bm...So my question is, where is the literature on this website that you are talking about? I must have missed that entire section on withdrawl. Can you please point me to it?<p>snl...I am not quite sure what you refer to here re what I was saying. Official ws withdrawal is discussed alot in SAA (harley book, surviving an affair), also you can search some of the literature on the site (harley letters for example), and is discussed alot here....I personally think withdrawal is explained and slanted some against the well-being of ws, but that is to be expected considering the mandate of the site. There is very little support for a ws who wandered and is in a marriage that should not be restored, but the bs wants it to be. Much effort is made to reprogram the ws, and very little effort made to ascertain whether they really want to be married, and help the couple divorce amicably, and compassionately...instead the ws is pretty well branded as a selfish loser.