I will tell you how my H and I have are feeling about the possibility of my becoming a WS one day. I would like to know if others have had similar thoughts/experiences about a BS becoming a WS. <p>Right after d-day I was feeling like pond scum. I would have had an A of my own with the first man who asked me. It wouldn`t have been about revenge either rather a way to regain my self esteem. I felt that way for nearly a year. I told my H how I was feeling and exactly why I would consider having an A of my own. I was totally honest with him about my thoughts and feelings. My H had been cheated on in the past by a GF and he had immediately gone out and had a ONS but his motive was revenge, not as a boost for his self esteem. He thought that I would have an A for revenge as well even though I told him it would simply be a way for me to feel better about myself. My H asked me to please just go ahead and do it, get it over with. He said that he would be fine with me having an A of my own, he deserved it and all he wanted was for me to feel better about myself and if an A would do that for me then so be it. He did say though that he had to know all about it, no sneaking around.<p>Not long after that my H started talking about having a threesome with another man. He mentioned men at his workplace as possible canidates. This was right out of left field. We had never discussed this before. It threw me for a loop. I couldn`t figure it out. That was NEVER one of his fantasies or one of my fantasies before. Then I started to think about it...what better way for my H to let me sleep with another man than in a threesome. He`d be right there. I guess for my H that this scenario was a perfect solution to our problems. I wasn`t interested in pursuing this. Yuck. He went on and on about this for a long time until I finally told him that he was creeping me out about it and I never wanted to hear about it again.<p>Fast forward. My H plan Aed me for months. I stated to feel less vunerable. I rejoined the workforce. I work around men all the time and I do get hit on. I have not been tempted. <p>Reasons why I have not been tempted are:<p>1. My H is meeting my EN`s<p>2. The men who are hitting on me are all married.<p>3. No man who has hit on me has anything special about him.<p>4. I have decided that for the time being that I want to stay married so why bother getting into to some heavy affair unless I want to divorce.<p>5. A ONS would be a bust because I know from past experience that the first time you sleep with ANYBODY it`s always a letdown so what would be the point? I feel good enough about myself now that it wouldn`t be a self esteem issue.<p>Reason why I am not sure that I would NEVER have an A of my own.<p>1. I feel like I have carte blanche. My H has said as much. He has told me that he would not leave me if I did.<p>2. What if I do run across a man who makes my heart pound? Since I feel like I have carte blanche would I be able to resist? If this happens years from now once my boys are older what reasons will I be able to find NOT to have an A? At that point a divorce would be no big deal.<p>3. I would have no guilt whatsoever. Once my H crossed the line he lowered the bar forever. I doubt I would feel even a smidgen of guilt, not after what my H put me through. I think this is evil but it`s how I feel.<p>4. It would make me feel equal in the marriage again. I feel substandard, beneath my H now.<p>5. I would finally understand what the great thrill of an A is all about.<p>I want to make it clear that I NEVER EVER would have entertained the idea of cheating on my H until he did it to me. Again it would not be about revenge. I think that some BS`s run right out and have A`s of their own right after d-day for either revenge or to boost self esteem but I also think that some BS`s are harbouring the same feelings that I am about becoming a WS, they bide their time and have their own A years after the fact. I figure eventually that yes it is true that 80% of BS`s end up a WS.

Daisy37,
No one could be in plan A forever while WS is still wondering, one of this day your taker will speak out. In the case of failing to rebuild or renew your marriage w/ a fullfilling one in recovery, we are also in a danger of having one.<p>We are all capable of having A it just that we choose not to have one.<p>Get conseling and work on MB to rebuild your M before it is too late.

Interesting post, though I hope the statistic is NOT true.<p>I think this all boils down to your #4 reason for why you are not sure you would NEVER have an A yourself:<p>This issue of equality in marriage. I find it interesting that you feel substandard in your marriage now that your husband has had an A. Why is it you don't feel you have stood the higher moral ground by being true to your pledge of fidelity in marriage? Why do you feel, if I am reading you right, that you have somehow missed out on something? Perhaps those feelings are worth investigating in terms of your self-worth/self-esteem issues. I agree that as a BS it is a tremendous blow to the self-esteem (I being a BS myself) but I have to honestly say I never felt like having an A myself either for revenge or as a self-esteem boost. Instead, I am trying to take better care of myself for ME.<p>Hope those thoughts are helpful and I wish you the best.<p>And if you could tell me how to do a quote I'd be most grateful!

Dear Redhat,<p>I don`t know if this is a mistake or not but NOW 17 months into recovery as far as my H knows I have absolutely no intention of having an A of my own. He still worries sometimes that I will but I try to avoid LB`s now by not telling my deepest darkest feelings. I am insisting to him that I would never have now. Is it a mistake to keep these conflicting thoughts to myself? If I told him what I really thought it would be a major LB.<p>We both have done alot of work to rebuild, my H`s top EN was PA and I lost 60 lbs in 6 months. We spend alot of time together and show lots of affection. Things are better now in our marriage than they have ever been and yet I cannot seem to shake these thoughts. I thought I would have by now especially after all positive the changes we both have made. There is no rebuilding left TO DO. I don`t know why I still feel like this. That`s what worries me.

First, I'm the one who started the 80% rumor. To clarify. My counselor told me that the probability is so high that it is almost predictable. So I pulled the 80% out of the air based on her comments.... it could be 50%, 99% or somewhere in between. Just wanted to let people know that the 80% is not hard research.<p>Second, I too have contemplated, theoretically, about having an affair. There is no one whoe tempts me and I really do not want to. It just a thougth that runs through my mind. Sort of one that has a life of it's own. My reason would be to feel better about myself. Eventhough my H and I are in a very good recovery, there is still a 'hole' in my emotional state. Most days I do very well, but somedays I feel painfully lonely,empty and my self esteem hits bottom. Recovery, especially in it's early stages, does not mean that life is a fairytail. There is still a lot to work out.<p>We believe that my H's affairs were actually affairs he had to make himself feel better, boost his self esteem, after his exwife left him for her OM. He was able to prove to himself that he is still lovable, still desirable. I now know that we got involved too soon after his divorce. He had not resolved his issues from that marriage. So I was caught up in that mess. <p>Why does my selfesteem hit bottom sometimes? Why do I get terribly lonely sometimes? Because my ex-h did not value me enough to stay committed to our marriage.. he had one affair after another. And now my new husband did the same thing through our engagement and early in our marriage. My current H tells me that the women and the affairs meant nothing to him... sort of the thrill of the chase and being chased. So he was willing to risk all we had, all I offered for 'NOTHING'. In my worst moments it makes me feel like 'less then nothing'. <p>Why does it not help to know that through my previous marriage and this one I have held my morals. That I am somehow morally superior? Because I think that's a trap. The moment we feel that way, we set our selves up for the good Lord to feed us humble pie. My H was the BS in his previous marriage. He felt morally suprior and wore that mantal for sometime... until he fell into the fog.<p>I know that feeling morally superior will not heal this hole. And I know that an affair will not either. What I don't know is what will... I am hoping that time and love from my H will. I do talk to him about the way I feel. I do this in hopes that I will not do something unhealthy and stupid out of the desire to feel better.

Dear asgoodasitgets,<p>I have no idea how to do quotes or I`d be doing it myself. This is marriage number 2 for me. My first H also cheated. Since we had no children together I immediately divorced him. I can`t do that this time because of my sons. <p>I feel like a rube. I have always tried to live my life by doing the right thing. It has not served me well. I don`t think I will ever understand the concept of loving someone and still being able to cheat unless I did it myself. Well even if I did cheat on my H it wouldn`t really be an answer to my question because of the extenuating circumstances. <p>My self esteem is better now than it was a year ago but you are right it`s not what it should be and I doubt it ever will be. I think that right now it`s about as high as it will ever go. A year ago I was so low I couldn`t even go out in public, face my family. I am alot better now. <p>No I don`t think my H and I are on equal footing. Would he really stick beside me if I had an A? Sometimes I think that it`s worth the risk of a divorce just to find that out. I really would like to know how he would react, not to hurt him so much as a test of the depth of his feelings for me. Would I be worth staying with if I had an A? I wasn`t worth being loyal too. <p>Yes I do think he`s better than me, he cheated and the wife still stuck by him. He must be something special to be able to keep his family after doing something so rotten. I know this sounds bitter that`s why I am venting this here instead of to my H.<p>I now seems to me that most humans are in it for themselves, if it feels good then do it. There must be something to that line of thinking. I`d like to find out what that is.

Daisy37,
Get MB conseling. Be honest with your H, even your darkest feeling. Review your M, the 4 gifts of love ... care, protection, time and honesty. Go to MB seminars nearest you. Live is to short to be unhappy specially if both of you willing to work on it. You are probably feeling this way since your M is stale. Do something to rejuvenate it. How many qual. time do you have w/ H ?. Weekend getaway ? ... you get the idea.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>I now seems to me that most humans are in it for themselves, if it feels good then do it. There must be something to that line of thinking. I`d like to find out what that is.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It is called selfishness.<p>[ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: redhat ]</p>

Dear Zorweb,<p>I think you undertand what I am talking about here. No I don`t think about this all the time or even everyday but the thought does pop up and take a life of it`s own as you said. I am not tempted or want to do it right now but I can no longer never say never either. <p>Maybe this is because it has both happened to us twice in two different marriages. When this occurs in only one marriage it`s easy to say "it`s the WS who`s the problem" but when it happens in two marriages with two different men you always have that sneaking suspicion that it IS YOU.<p>I have no idea how to get rid of the hole either. We are 17 months into this. There is nothing left for either my H or I to do to make the marriage better. And yet I still feel like this. In the beginning everyone told me that it would take time and MB techniques to completely recover. I am starting to think I will never fully recover.<p>I am not walking around like a sad sack. Most of the time I am not thinking about this. I go about my business and am fairly happy. But when I do think about my H`s A`s the possibility of becoming a WS myself one day does cross my mind.<p>I think "happily ever after" is a crock.<p>[ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: Daisy37 ]</p>

Daisy,<p>Yes I think we have similar experiences, there our feeling similar. For me, this is actually my third marriage. My first husband cheated too. So for me it's 3 H's and 3 cheaters. All three had mulitple affairs and did not want to leave me for any particular marriage. In the end I left both my of ex-h's.<p>One thing I do know about that 'hole' is that I am the only one who can get rid of it. Just like no one can tell the WS what to do until they are ready to hear it, I know that no words, said by anyone will get rid of the feeling. On the days when it raises it's ugly head, I feel like doing something outragious, like running away to some island and changing my entire life. An affair falls in the catagory. <p>When I did finally share with my H the feelings I was having and that the theory of having an affair was playing in my mind, he was shocked. It took him back a bit. After all I'm the loyal one who loved him no matter what he did. I have explained to him that it is not about revenge, but more or a self medication. And this scares me because I think that a lot of people have affairs in an attempt to fill some emptiness in themselves. Can recall explaining to my step children that their mother's affair and her leaving them was based on her having an unidentifiable hunger.. like the times when we are hungry and but don't know what for. Sometimes we keep eating things looking for the one food that satifies our hunger. Usually nothing does.<p>They have antidepressants... do they have anti-affair-after-affects meds?

Dear Redhat,<p>The marriage is not stale. If you asked me what could my H do more than he`s already doing/done I would not have an answer for you.<p>We do spend alot of time together in fact a little more than I like, I need time alone and I am not getting that. My H is off work for a back injury.<p>We do get weekends alone, we go out for dinner, we have regular sex. It would seem to be picture perfect now. <p>We had a horrible marriage for the first eight years. My H had an addiction to pot. We`ve only had 17 months of a good normal marriage. Well not even that because for the last 17 months although my H has been plan Aing me I have been dealing with his A so really we`ve never had any good peaceful times in our marriage yet. Maybe it would be easier if we did have at least one stretch of good to look back on. <p>We ARE both working on being happy but I am still not completely happy. I keep wating for the other shoe to drop. This is what I have become used to in my life. It`s like Zorweb said there is a hole that I have no idea how to fill.

Dear Zorweb,<p>In the beginning I did think about killing myself but then that changed into the idea of running away to some far off city, telling no one where I was and starting over. <p>I did share my feelings with my H early on in recovery but now I feel that telling him would be a very mean thing to do to him. Yes I do care about his feelings in some respect despite what I have posted here. I am venting now but in my "real life " I am a very nice person. I don`t deliberately hurt people which is part of the reason why I don`t understand when others deliberately hurt me. I can`t shake the feeling that in some way I have deserved this.<p>Like I said earlier I would ever have even thought of having an A myself until H number two did. One cheating H was not enough to jade me but two cheating H`s was. I actually resent my H for making me by HIS actions contemplate this. These thoughts make me very uncomfortable.<p>If you figure out a remedy to the hole please let me know.<p>[ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: Daisy37 ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Daisy37:
3. I would have no guilt whatsoever. Once my H crossed the line he lowered the bar forever. I doubt I would feel even a smidgen of guilt, not after what my H put me through. I think this is evil but it`s how I feel.<hr></blockquote><p>
Hi Daisy,<p>BS here. I can't say I haven't had the same fantasy of having an A and feeling it was my right after going thru the hell I've been thru, and I have had plenty of opportunities, BUT ...<p>Don't you feel you would disappoint yourself, Daisy? Don't you think you'd feel guilty because it simply is wrong, as opposed to feeling guilty just because it would hurt your spouse? Don't you think you'd feel bad about yourself because you have lowered your standards and your expectations for yourself?<p>Having an A is a bell you can never un-ring once you've gone there. <p>Best,
Jo<p>[ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

daisy - I would add another reason for not having an affair: it's wrong. It hurts people who had no choice in the matter and it (usually) requires continuous lies.<p>I am like Z having thought about it in the past - notably during the long years I was being daily rejected by my wife - I could have used the ego boost. But I didn't do it. <p>Right before d-day, my wife told me out of the blue that she couldn't blame if I had had an affair (she was justifying what she was doing).<p>But here I am, feeling like a virgin, but content with my conscience. I am disgustingly proud and yes, somewhat righteous. But I haven't taken on any baggage and I am free of guilt, knowing I have abided, in this regard, by the golden rule.<p>I recommend you not do it.

As a BS, you think that having an affair would make you feel better about yourself?<p>Let me tell you...as a WS I've already tried that route...and for a while, it DID work. But then reality hit. Sure, go for the temporary thrill the affair gives you, if you feel like you need it that bad...but be prepared to live with a lifetime of feeling guilty, ashamed, scared, and alienated (among other things).<p>Is it worth the cost? I would say no...but I can't turn back the hands of time. Don't make the same mistakes that I made...because afterwards you'll have to live with yourself and what you've done...and that's not easy by a longshot.

I was trying to stay away from this topic because it just brings up TOO MANY awful memories. <p>Short history in a nutshell: Ex cheated in the 80's, as you might recall. Thirteen years later, when I turned 40, I had a brief, but life-changing affair (and not for the better). Ex, who wasn't ex at the time, could not forgive me and turned around and had two more meaningful relationships with women he met at his church, and the last one was a full-on physical affair.<p>Was it worth it for me to find out "how he felt"... hmmmm... uh.... um... NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.... IT RUINED MY LIFE!!<p>I could die of embarrassment even NOW at the thought of it, and it's been talked about to death, relived to death... and you'd think I would have forgiven myself for it by now, wouldn't you???<p>And before someone calls me a drama queen again (not that I don't deserve it, mind you [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] )this is TRULY how I feel. It was the biggest MISTAKE I have EVER EVER EVER made.<p>It's wrong, I can never take it back, I have to live with myself forever, and nothing can ever replace the "me" who was before the affair.

TTF,<p>Yep, that's why I never cheated on my ex's dispite their infidelities. I know it will add more problems and not solve a thing. I think Daisy does too. Since I have learned to never say 'never', I'll say I don't think I ever will do it. But for some reason the though goes come to mind.<p>Just wish I knew the magic that would make the 'hole' or emptiness go away. The thing is that is really frustrating is to have had this feeling put on me. I had no choice in it. Kinda makes me feel trapped. Perhaps that is better though then being the one who did had the affair.<p>Thankgoodness I spend less and less time feeling this way. Maybe time will heal it. Can only hope<p>
Since my H was a BS in both of his previous marriages I asked him which was harder on him, being a BS or being a WS. His says that being a BS is bad, but being the WS is much worse. Why? He says because he has now done something that he never thought he was capable of. He thought that he was better and different then people who cheated. Now he is no better. So he has let himself down.<p>So what I've learned from this:<p>If something bad happens to a person that is basically an act of nature, like the still birth of my twins... it causes a lot of pain.<p>If something is done to a person by someone we love and trust, like our spouse cheating and lying, ... the pain in much greater.
.<p>If a person does something bad (wrong) of great magnitude, like cheating.... the pain is the greatest because that person has let themselves down.<p>make sense?

For the most part I find this thread incomprehensible. I can barely understand why an affair occurs when you have had no exposure or training re these kinds of things, but to have one after being through one ( as bs or ws) I cannot comprehend...further I albsolutely would not understand if thinker had an A (something she mentions regularly).... I would not accept/condone/forgive and would take it as evidence she has no sense at all (is totally not marriage material), or is deliberately malicious, but what do I know.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong>I can barely understand why an affair occurs when you have had no exposure or training re these kinds of things...<p>I would not accept/condone/forgive and would take it as evidence she has no sense at all (is totally not marriage material), or is deliberately malicious, but what do I know.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>What the heck does THIS MEAN?<p>"exposure"... "training"....????? [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Your W could not be forgiven and would not be marriage material???<p>Uh...<p>I don't get it.

As a BS, I have talked many times about having an affair. I agree that the BS feels lower than their WS. There is this feeling of being rejected, ugly, unwanted and etc. This is very real for the BS. I can't imagine my H OW husband feelings after he finds out she (the OW) had another sexual affair, with my H. Her H already knows about the first sexual affair, now he has to find about the 2nd physical affair. He is going to feel so low, I actually feel sorry for him, and he needs to kick his wifes butt many times. <p>I also would like to feel the euphoria, the fantasy, the excitement of my heart when my lover calls, talks to me, to hear his heart beat over the phone, to feel my heart beat with his voice. Yes, I want this just as bad as all the other BS. I guess now that I would have an A, would make me not desirable for my H, not marrage material, he would not accept it, boy it doesn't take much for him to throw somebody out. But he was able to have the fun and give the OW great amount of our money, and gifts, that were quite erotic. Plus the talks of sex on the phone and all the planning of marriage, being together and doing things together, and having sex together. Who wouldn't want all the excitement, that makes your self-esteem rise above all stars. This is quite normal for any human being, who is starving for attention. <p>I would like to know for the BS who becomes a WS, is there as many secrets as their spouse did with their affair? Is the first acknowledgement as devastating as when the BS found out about their spouses affair? I gather in my head it is not as extreme emotionally as the first one. But I could be wrong. As for my H OW husband, I don't know what he is going to do when he finds out. Of course we feel she has not told as yet, just talking with an investigator and the actions I found out about her, he feels she has not told yet either. She is afraid of the hurt she is going to instill on her H, and to know that she has been unfaithful again, for sure the second time in a physical affair, and my first investigator said there is a possibility of a third. She doesn't want the label of for sure 2 big red A's on her forehead, she wants people to think she is this high moral christian that acts according to Gods plan. Boy did she forget to read some pages God laid out. But I can see where the BS has a desire to become a WS, I feel it is absolutely normal to want one. But, yes we have to fight this desire, and hope to keep ourself faithful and honorable. I know I am fighting it, and am looking at men with different eyes now, and giving them a big smile and a look that means I am interested. Not good, but it is natural, and it actually feels good. Criticize me if you want, but ask any BS and I am sure this is what they feel. We have to fight it and it is hard.<p>[ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: thinker ]</p>

Interesting topic.<p>Short Version: I do believe that 80% of BS become WS.<p>Long Version: I can definetly relate to the experiences that the BS is going through ... thinking about having an A.<p>I am an "oldtimer" ... been on/off marriage builders since August 2000. Currently, engaged to ex-husband (married 8 years, divorced in 1999, no kids) who had a PA/EA for 5 months while trying to get back with me after the divorce. He broke it off when I moved in with him in August 2000 and I stayed with him and did Plan A for 6 months. Then I moved out because Plan A wasn't working and I was tried of trying, so he asked me to remarry him. I hesitated at first, but eventually said "yes".<p>Seven months later in September 2001, I ran into an old friend who lives far away and whom I had always been attracted to because we have so much in common. He had recently gotten married, but was unhappy. We started a long-distance EA that became physical when he came to my town, but no sex.<p>My fiance/ex-husband/WS discovered the emails in December 2001 and confronted both of us and demanded that we have no more contact. I felt guilty for wanting to be with someone else's husband and felt that it was probably better to stop the relationship ... especially since he never mentioned leaving his wife for me.<p>However, now my fiance/ex-husband/WS is trying to speed up the marriage process ... he wants me to move in with him NOW and he wants to get married this year. I am sure that he is doing this because I destroyed his trust in me.<p>He has been wonderful since October 2001 ...lots of "I love you's", roses, we spend every night at one of our houses, he wants to kiss and have sex all the time (which he did not always want to do in the past), he quit smoking pot, exercises, takes me dancing, goes to work. He is doing everything that I have ever wanted since we starting "going together" in High School 14 years ago.<p>My problem .... I don't know if I really want to remarry him. Which sounds silly, because he is being so wonderful now. But, I was hurt by the way that he treated me while we were married for 8 years, by him abandoning and then divorcing me in 1999 ... the PA/EA affair in 2000 (even though I almost started one myself in 2001) ... and not meeting my EN's until recently.<p>Although, he is being "every girl's dream of a fiance" ... I feel very smothered and still think about the guy that I had the 2-month long-distance EA/PA (no sex) with and wonder what it would be like to date someone else.<p>Once a spouse or in my case "ex-spouse/fiance", crosses that line ... trust is destroyed and it opens the BS up to a whole different world that they might not have thought about in the past ... especially if they have limited dating experience like myself. I became part of the statistic that you are all discussing .... it does happen ... it just took a year.<p>Jennidy<p>[ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: Jennidy ]</p>