I don't know from experience...but I presume a revenge affair on the part of the BS would be even WORSE on the relationship than the WS's original A. Why? Because by this time both sides should be learning better relationship skills...and both sides are clear on just how much it hurts both parties when an affair happens.<p>To have all the knowledge gained from healing after the first affair...to know EXACTLY how it's gonna hurt the spouse...and to STILL do it? Seems very selfish and almost intentionally hurtful. Not only that...it won't ultimately cure that low self-esteem...it'll just bring it down even further.<p>If you're still together and still this unhappy, BS's...do you spouse and yourself a favor and leave him before having an affair...unless you're just out to hurt him...but I doubt the end results will be what you may be picturing. Your spouse won't say "oh, gee, thanks...now I know how it feels"...they'll say "you KNOW how devastating this is...we both know...and you still chose to do this?" You wouldn't say "oooh, now I know how exciting it is!"...you'd say "For a passing thrill, at best, I've shattered another human being, and now I have to live with the shame and the guilt of it forever."<p>A revenge affair by my BS would be the kiss of death in my own relationship. After all we've learned about affairs and about our relationship...if he were to STILL do it...just as if I were to do it again, it would be unforgivable.

To reply to Thinker's question ....<p>I was much more devastated to learn about his 5-month EA/PA in 2000, than he was about my 2-month EA/PA (no sex) in 2001. He says that it was because he could understand how I was feeling and that he loved me and wants to work through this and get remarried ASAP. <p>Personally, I think that he would have been just as devastated if I had gone all the way and had sex. I am not sure if he would be so forgiving ... because we are each other's "firsts" and I have only been with one other guy for one night (after the divorce and before he came back). The only other person that he has been with is the girl that he dated after the divorce for 3 months and then continued to date (EA/PA) for 5 months while he was dating me and trying to win me back.<p>I was more devastated that he "loved" someone else. I think he gets more devastated if I have sex with someone else. Maybe I am being naive ... but woman seem to be more upset that their man would love someone else ... while men seem to be more upset that their woman would have sex with someone else.

TTF gets it new beginning, but if ya got any more questions just ask. I was not saying what I did judgementally, or morally, just realistically. Once one has had the "training" of MB there really is no excuse for an affair.... but then again people drink, crash, kill someone, and drink and drive again, maybe it is some kind of genetic defect in the human species.

[Warning! Very angry post! Turn back if you're faint of heart.]<p>Well, I really don't get all this from the WS's. Now that they have proven to us BS's how we can be broken and crushed, having seen the misery of an affair by watching us lie dying at their feet for months and years, they say, "Boy, if you ever did to me what I did to you, I'd leave you!" URRRRGGGG!!! This is making me rabid! [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] <p>[Trying to calm down here and take a few deep breaths...]<p>new_beginning said: <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I have to live with myself forever, and nothing can ever replace the "me" who was before the affair. <hr></blockquote> Well, the Rose Red I was before my husband's affair is also gone forever. I was aware of my faults pre-A, plenty aware, but basically felt I was a worthwhile person, attractive, funny and capable in some areas. Now I am humiliated, scorned, valueless, ugly, fat and bitter. And our recovery is going very well, thank you!<p>At this point, I feel like the most undesirable scum in the world--my own husband broke my heart and scr*wed me over for a chance to bang some cheap woman he didn't even like! And as punishment for being such a loser, I have to spend the rest of my life with the [person] who did this to me, because I think my children need and deserve married parents. And I am loving and affectionate to my husband, and meet his need for SF with alarming frequency and intensity, but deep in the recesses of my heart, I am dully surprised to find that there is still rage and hatred. I agree with Daisy, "I am starting to think I will never fully recover."<p>As far as the idea that I am morally superior, big deal. I am worthless and ugly, but can find meaning in being morally superior? I'm sure everyone reading this will be provoked to remark that from the venom and bile I'm spilling in this post, I'm obviously morally inferior to my husband anyway, and heavens, no wonder he did it! [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Would I have an affair? I doubt it. Nobody wants me. And furthermore, should some pathetic individual find me momentarily acceptable for a quick bang, I'm sure that's the only way I could possibly be lower than I already am.<p>Finally, I'm not going to apologize for this nasty post. I'm sick of trying to be this nice person. I feel like sh*t. As important as this board is to me, and sometimes I think it's all I have left, you guys don't know me, so ultimately I can't gain your good opinion.<p>Rose Red<p>P.S. I already take anti-depressants and have for years.<p>[ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: Rose Red ]<p>[ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: Rose Red ]</p>

Oh Rose Red [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] ,<p>I hope you don't think I don't understand... I was also the BS - five times over.<p>I thought EXACTLY like you do now... <p>I do hear you, and I do understand.

Just to let you know, I felt the same way as sad_n_lonely and TTF in the past. While I was married for 8 years ... I was 100% married. I also could not understand how a woman could ever forgive her man for cheating on her.<p>But ... after learning about his affair (two-timing while we were thinking about remarriage) ... I was not ready to give up, so I forgave him and "fought" by trying to meet his emotional needs. I honestly believed that I would never ever even think about having an A and hurt him like he hurt me. But, one year later ... I came very close to a PA and did have a short EA. It happens .... even when you don't think that it could ever happen to you. He wasn't meeting my emotional needs .... I complained .... then someone else started to meet those needs .... I still complained .... finally he started to meet those EN's and the extra relationship ended. It just goes to show you how important those ENs are ... especially "in recovery".<p>I would probably not forgive a second A, but I don't think anybody should say "never" ... you don't know exactly how you will react until it happens to you.

Oh Rosered, your post spews nothing but heartfelt honesty. I, unlike you, am NOT a good player and I HAVE admitted all of those exact feelings to my own WH. You came here to vent instead, which is way, way more productive and a much more prudent move. <p> Don't beat yourelf up or think that we will if you let your hair down and tell it like it is. I can on any given day of the week say amen, amen, amen... Now if only you could bottle me up some of your poise and patience (how else do you face your H every day?) you could make a mint. <p>My Wh hates my "brutally honest" side. That I tell him how being with him makes me feel. Like the lesser, lower element. The one who, as Zorweb said, must be less than nothing if the sex was really "for nothing". But I find that I just don't care about the marriage anymore. It's, uhm, "nothing". <p>Snow

new_beginning, thank you. I wasn't mad at you, just enraged at my fate and the unforgiving attitudes of some WS. Your post was so kind--it really helped me calm down.<p>Snow, I'm afraid that you are mistaken about how poised I am. I can't always keep it in. However, the last time I let it rip, I committed the worst LB ever, so I'm trying much harder to stay calm. Fortunately, my husband is pretty thick-skinned--he doesn't get LB'ed that easily. As long as I remain calm, I can tell him practically anything and he won't be LB'ed. I just don't want you to get a false idea that I'm some MB warrior or something. I'm just a messed-up, struggling BS.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I find that I just don't care about the marriage anymore. It's, uhm, "nothing". <hr></blockquote> I'm sorry, Snowhite. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Rose Red

Jennidy<p>Don’t know if you caught it, but the irony in what sad_n_lonely and TTF are saying about BS’s having an affair is that both of them are WS’s. They can ‘understand’ their affairs and want/expect forgiveness. But they would see a secondary affair by a BS as being worse then theirs. <p>I totally disagree with SNL’s judgements about a BS who has an affair not being maritial material. He can look past that in his OW but he cannot if his wife were to have an affair? HUH?<p>I can see TTF’s point of view except that just as she had an affair because her needs were not being met. Many BS’s continue to not have their needs met. In addition their self esteem, etc, have been drug through the mud so badly that some of their EN’s like admiration and affection are so far in the negative that it would take something cataclysmic to pull them out of the negative.

TowardsTheFuture<p>RE: I presume a revenge affair on the part of the BS would be even WORSE on the relationship than the WS's original A. Why? Because by this time both sides should be learning better relationship skills...and both sides are clear on just how much it hurts both parties when an affair happens. <p>I am not sure that an affair by a BS is a revenge affair or if it is a desperate attempt to fill that ‘hole’… an attempt to self medicate. In know that when the thought comes to mind I do not think of revenge. I have not desire to hurt my H. Instead I just want to feel whole again. I want to feel special. The odd thing is that the more time we spend together, the more he fills my EN’s the less I have these empty feelings. But when he is traveling a lot, when life’s intrusions get in the way of our being together and meeting each other’s needs, the bad feelings get stronger.<p>You are right that after a first affair, a couple should have learned better relationship skills. But it just does not always happen. We have. But look at the people posting here. It seems that in many of the marriages here the WS could give a hang about the BS. So what if the WS does not bother to put more into the marriage? Or what if neither of them has the good fortune to have found MB or other mentors to help them grow as a couple?<p>TTF, one thing about my situation is that while many affairs seem to stem from a spouse’s needs not being met, that is not the case in my marriage. I did nothing to drive my H away. So for me, maybe the ‘hole’ in me would be of a different nature if I had contributed to the situation.
RE: To have all the knowledge gained from healing after the first affair...to know EXACTLY how it's gonna hurt the spouse...and to STILL do it? Seems very selfish and almost intentionally hurtful. Not only that...it won't ultimately cure that low self-esteem...it'll just bring it down even further.
RE: If you're still together and still this unhappy, BS's...do you spouse and yourself a favor and leave him before having an affair
Please realize that those of us here who are speaking of having secondary affairs are speaking in theory and venting some. Recovery from an affair, like grief of any kind, has stages. This happens no matter how well the recovery is going. Right now I am smack in the middle of a stage in which I am being forced, by some inner voice, to deal with this awful feeling of being ‘less then nothing’, this terrible ‘hole’ in me. It is not fun. It is a torment. And it is something I did not ask for. It was forced on me. Speaking for myself, I have no intention of having an affair. I am only voicing the pain here in the hope that it will help me heal.
Yes we are still together. I am actually very happy with our marriage and very much in love with my H. I believe that when a person is having feelings that could lead to inappropriate behavior it is very important to voice those feeling and seek a resolution that will help to avoid the behavior. about in how to find the peace within myself. I am just trying to find a non-destructive way to heal. Thought that maybe voicing it here, venting here would help. Thought that maybe someone would not only understand the feelings but also actually have some insight and help on how to heal and get rid of the feelings. I do not want to feel this way. I hate it. My ex-H took something very important away from me and then stomped on it. I was barely recovered from my previous marriage when my current H did the same thing, though not in as cruel a manner. But somehow now it is my responsibility to repair that which has been taken from me. It’s a hard thing to do. I wish is could just take it off like dirty shirt. But emotions are not like that.
What I find interesting is that the BS’s here seem to understand this feeling and that it is not really a feeling of revenge, but a seeking to fix something that is now broken in ourselves. And it seems that the WS’s are indignant or righteous. Seeming to have a feeling that this would be worse then what they did. I find it interesting that not one of the WS’s has said that they can understand how a BS can be left with this hurt, no matter how well things are going in the marriage. The destruction from an affair is very far reaching.
Let’s see. I am supposed to understand that my H had issues that he was dealing with that let to him having an affair. I’m supposed to be loving and understanding. But if I am struggling with this ‘hole’ in my self worth and feeling worthless at times, I cannot be forgiven making bad choices? HUH? I think that the important point of this thread is that it takes the BS a very long time to heal from this, no matter how good the recovery is going. Both the WS and the BS need to know that the BS is hurting and vulnerable. Both need to address this.
Perhaps the WS’s could pull back a little from this thread and really see what we are saying. We are not saying that we are going to have affairs… we know that is something we do not want to do. I would love of the WS’s reading this to realize how the affair has destroyed something very deep within the BS. The BS’s sense of self worth is very fragile for a long time after an affair, or in my case affair(s). That is what makes them so vulnerable. If you, as a WS, love your spouse and want them to be whole again, it is important to know this and to nurture them. It is important to address what I now missing in the BS.
RE: ….you'd say "For a passing thrill, at best, I've shattered another human being, and now I have to live with the shame and the guilt of it forever."
My H had sex with many women, he jeopardized my health, my mental welling being and our marriage for something that was only a thrill that ‘meant nothing’ to him. Some days I cannot shake that feeling that it means that I am less then nothing. If I were to ever have an affair, it would not be for a passing thrill. It would also not be for revenge. It would be to ‘fix’ this pain and feeling of being ‘less then nothing’.
RE: A revenge affair by my BS would be the kiss of death in my own relationship. After all we've learned about affairs and about our relationship...if he were to STILL do it...just as if I were to do it again, it would be unforgivable.
I agree, if either my H or I ever have an affair now it will be unforgivable. That is why I will not do it.
I expressed this feeling (as occasional as it may be) of being ‘less then nothing’ with a hope. I was hoping that someone would have some words of wisdom, or some advice of things I could do to heal from this. How does a person repair their feelings of self worth in a healthy manner? How does a person get to the point of feeling like their spouse could have truly loved them and yet done this? How does a person get beyond the feeling that if they had been somehow ‘better’ their spouse would have considered them valuable enough to care enough about to not hurt. Going out and getting a new hair do, buy new cloths, exercising, etc., just does not do it. At least not to this point. Instead I get lectures on morality. Interesting. Guess many do not want to face the deep destruction the affair causes.<p>TTF, do you have any advice as to how a person can heal? Does anyone?

z..TTF, do you have any advice as to how a person can heal? Does anyone?<p>snl..I do, but I have lot to do today, remind me if I forget, this is an important issue.

Rose Red, I have to say that at least you're trying. We are not all MB warriors, I know. Just wanted you to know that I (and many others) understand the outburst and where it comes from.<p>My WH is trying too, but I can't trust it or maybe I just don't want to. He can't deal with the anguish that returns whenever I "try" to have a decent marital relationship with him. I think that it's all about self esteem. To quote Zorweb again, how do you get over that feeling of being less than nothing? That is the answer she and obviously many others, is seeking. I agree that for either the BS or WS to have an affair after this trauma, after all that's been learned would damage a potentially salvageable M to the point of no return. <p>I also think that it has a lot to do with personal history. My dad was a horrible serial cheater, felt a lot of entitlement. He was physically and emotionally abusive to both my mother and me (though not to my two brothers). He tried to molest me when I was 13 yo. It took many many years of anguish to get over that and rebuild my self esteem. I was lucky in having a wonderful extended family who helped me through that. By the time I met and married my H, I knew I loved and respected him, but I also knew that if he were to wander, it would have to be over for me. Sure enough, five years into it, he did it. And kept on doing it. It's like peeling away at the skin of an onion and bringing the sting back out to the open. And he insits that they were "nothing" to him too. That he was "trying to destroy" himself. I don't buy it. They may have been "nothing" but at the same time he was treating me like I was also "nothing". <p>I've been following the Anatomy of an Affair thread and I hear a lot being said by the WH there that my own H is saying. I do believe it's sincere. But with my own H, I feel like he's gone out, had his flings and now he is ready to come clean, play house with me and I should jump right in and play along. It's all well and good that he has decided that he really does want a family, a wife, a home life and to be married to me. Trouble is, he said the same thing in July of'90. Promised it before God, our families and friends and slapped a gold band on my finger to prove it. Guess that's where the "this marriage is nothing" idea comes from. <p>Snow<p>PS I'd LOVE to hear how a person can heal after this. SnL, gentle reminder to tell us<p>[ January 17, 2002: Message edited by: Snowwhite ]</p>

Snow, I entirely agree with you about the husband who now wants to play nice. My husband has told me that I can trust him now because he promises he will never do that again. In other words, he really means it now. Dumb me, I thought he really meant it the first time--when he married me!<p>I am so sorry for the pain you have gone through with this, not just with your husband, but also with your father. The irony of all this must be incredibly painful for you. You must be a strong woman, Snow, even if you don't feel it.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> He can't deal with the anguish that returns whenever I "try" to have a decent marital relationship with him. <hr></blockquote> So what does he want? You to punish him forever, because that's all he deserves? No, of course not, your WS wants what 99% of them want: for the BS to just "get over it." [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>You know, one reason which hasn't been given for the BS to have an affair is to have an exit affair. It's totally not worth it, totally unkind and unfeeling, totally cruel, but the pain of having someone you love and respect cr*p all over you is so horrible that after a while you don't care what happens, you just want the pain to stop! I read one WS who posted here that she couldn't understand why her husband wasn't Plan A'ing her more--didn't he want to keep her? Why no! The WS has just proven himself to be a liar and a cheat, now I'm supposed to work my butt off trying to hang on to this "prize?"<p>I'm trying to Plan A now, not because my husband is somebody wonderful who must be wooed back into the marriage at all costs, but because I am basically miserably unhappy trying to live in this marriage with all this resentment. The Plan A is helping somewhat.<p>I too long for a kind, honorable man to look lovingly into my eyes and tell me that I am the most important person in the world to him. I too look into the faces of men I see and wonder what it would be like to be held and kissed by them. To be wanted, to be valued, to be whole again.<p>And then I wonder why my value depends so much on what other people think. My whole problem lies somewhere in that murk.<p>Rose Red [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ January 17, 2002: Message edited by: Rose Red ]</p>

RoseRed, "Dumb me, I thought he really meant it the first time, when he married me." I know EXACTLY how you feel! NOW we are supposed to trust them? This is the hardest thing I have ever tried to do! As far as being morally superior goes, yep we are but it sure dosen't feel very good does it? Prayers to you, Ladysing

OK, Zorweb, I hear what you're saying. I don't know to make yourself feel better...this is something that I'm working on trying to find out for myself as it is.<p>A question, though...why is it that BS's are free to come here and vent, theorize, hypothesize, ask questions, brainstorm, etc...but as a WS, when I come here to do the same...I always seem to be branded as insensitive, and basically given the impression that what I have to say doesn't amount to much.<p>Can't I vent? Can't I brainstorm? Can't I do these things, too? I feel, somehow, like my words are taken much more literally due to my "label". Do I not have the right to come here and just say what I'm thinking, without it always having to be debated or disproven?<p>Before my affair...both my SO and I were communication "cripples"...we were involved in more of an entanglement than an actual relationship. Maybe my situation is just different, I don't know...but the two of us HAVE moved on to a point where an affair from either side would be unforgivable (and by the way, it would be not only an affair by him, but a repeat affair by myself as well, that would be many times worse than the original affair).<p>Why? In simple terms...because we both KNOW BETTER NOW. Low esteem is as much of a worthless excuse for a revenge affair as it was for my ORIGINAL affair...so what if I hated myself, thought of dying, running away, etc...? Wasn't justification for what I did.<p>It's okay to think about it, Z...sometimes I think about what would have happened if I had stayed woth OM...who knows? Maybe we would've been great...but somehow, I doubt it. The thoughts aren't so bad...it would be acting on them that would be bad. Anyone who has ANY affairs at ANY stage of the relationship is NEVER justified...and each subsequent affair is worse, regardless of who has it, right? Because it means that all of the work, all of the fear, all of the working through the pain (on BOTH sides) and the grief and shame (on BOTH sides)..all of that progress...was for nothing.

ttf, I have been here since march of 2001, I am the wsh, and I have posted over 1300 posts, hundreds dealing with questions re marriage and my stuff as the ws. You can vent and brainstorm all you want, I have, is not a problem. But the reality is this is a board populated by bs, and recovered/ing ws...so confused, undecided, exploring ws are a definite minority and are going to be challenged hard, and the occassional target of displace anger....that is just reality. But I have had numerous bs go the distance with me as I wrestle with this stuff, you will too...BUT if you are thin-skinned and "react" to every slight you will spend most of your time in fruitless griping back in forth...my advice, ignore the slings and arrows, be polite and understanding of the fact we (ws) represent a lot of pain (not that we aren't in pain too) to folks who will sometimes come on pretty strong...I kinda view that as an opportunity to give back...as ws we are on the (right or wrong) ones who violated the "taboos" and so maybe owe something back, a kinda social balancing of the books, so soak up some of the um..... more impassioned replies and be glad you can help give someone a place to vent a little.

I was the bs in 87 and the ws in 97.It wasn't a revenge affair and my spouse never found out but it was one of the dumbest things I've ever done.
It did help me to understand why affairs happen and what kinds of things we need to do as a couple to prevent them, of course if I would have read this site first, I could have saved myself, op, and op's family a lot of pain. I promise you ,it isn't worth it.

Snl,
nevermind

I have a nasty sinus infection which has made me feel like complete crap for the last few days. I started my meds last night which is why I am up at this hour. The meds are keeping me awake. <p>So I`m not the only one who feels like this re: a BS eventually having an A.<p>I want to make this clear. I am NOT looking for an A. If I was h*ll bent on having I would have by now. It`s not really a self esteem issue any more per say. I lost the weight, changed my hair, makeup, clothes ect. I got a job which pays me in three days what my H makes in a week. My H has been plan Aing me since d-day 17 months ago. I have been plan Aing him right back for the last few months. The A is no longer discussed or even eluded too. Most of the time I don`t even think about it anymore. But the memory is not erased, it does come back when I least expect it. If I am tired, or sick like the last couple of days or in a hormonal flux it is guaranteed to play back through my mind. But even when I am "happy" I am really not. There is always this tinge of sadness and disappointment. I doubt that I will ever truley feel happy again. <p>Yes I know happiness is a decision that one makes for themselves but sometimes there is just only so happy you can make yourself. If a parent loses a child no one would expect them not to have an everlasting underlying sadness. I think it`s along those same lines. You go on with life and try to be as happy as you can be but you will never fully be happy again. I think that maybe that`s the hole that Zorweb has refered to. <p>After my first H`s A I was able to put it all behind me. I divorced him in short order and never looked back. All in all it was relatively painless compared to my second H`s A. Now that was a major blow. I think maybe I have lost faith in humanity as a whole in some way. I now have the sneaking suspicion that NO ONE can ever be trusted, not even myself. <p>I think that the Harley`s might be right in that ANYONE can have an A given the right circumstances. My "right' circumstances might just be that I was cheated on twice. It`s not about meeting EN`s anymore, avoiding LB`s, or whether my H is able to maintain his perfect husband status till the end of time. It`s how I look at life now, what my defintion of love has now become. Love between a husband and wife is not forever. It may come and it may go but it`s not constant. No WS will ever be able to convince me that at the moment when they were on the brink of a sexual encounter that they really "loved" their spouse, this just doesn`t make sense to me. You may have loved them the day before and you may have loved them the day after but most certainly not when you committed the act. <p>Both of my H`s were addicts. The first one was an alcoholic who was never home, drug me through a bankruptcy, had me living literally a hovel and who ended up giving me an STD. My second H is a recovering pot addict. He too was never home, was verbally abusive, kited checks ect planted a pot field ect. Yes I know I put up with way too much from both of them. Yet I never cheated. I lost respect for them and I did lose alot of love for both of them but never to the point of NO LOVE and having an infidelity of my own. And I did have opportunities. Despite of all the crap I went through with both of the I never got to the point of NO love. At least not until they both had A`s that is. All love went right out the window for both of them with the A`s. <p>Sometimes I think that it has been a mistake to hold out love to spouses who went so far over the top. I don`t really know why my first H cheated. Since I had no intention of fixing the marriage it wasn`t really discussed. My second H did it for a sexual thrill at least that`s the best excuse he can come up with. <p>The bar has been lowered. I don`t have the same expectations of marriage that I used to. For me cheating was simply inconceivable something you just don`t do, like robbing a bank. I don`t view it that way anymore. I KNOW I still would never rob a bank but I no longer KNOW that I would never cheat. <p>I am not an idiot, I never thought that all married couples stayed in love forever, and I knew that some spouses stayed married for the kids or financial reasons while playing around on the side. The concept of cheating on someone while you profess to STILL LOVE them NEVER occured to me. Not anymore which is why NOW I can imagine my marriage being repaired and living happily everafter and still falling victim to becoming a WS myself. My H has worked very hard to convince me that you can love someone and still cheat. I am not saying I`ll do it, check back with me in 50 years, but I can imagine myself doing it.

Gosh,
You guys have provoked me to think like never before. For one thing, what will never change is that a BS's pain is not like a WS's pain is not like an OP's pain is not like an OC's pain.<p>I think the BS and the OC are wounded most severely due to their innocence and their recovery from the pain of infidelity is lifelong.<p>WSs and OPs want to forget our "stupid" mistake that meant "nothing" and get on with our lives asap... Sometimes we can hide the shame, other times we cannot--like in cases where a child was born and raised or a STD was contracted or a divorce resulted...<p>*sigh*<p>Was telling the OW (SOW22MM) on A Husband's thread to imagine someone who was bitten by a dog or a snake and how they would hesitate to buddy up with the next dog or snake who crossed their path! I think it's the same way with betrayal.<p>I think it's GOOD not to trust anyone, not even ourselves because we are all vulnerable and capable of disappointing ourselves.<p>I know that not everyone is religious, but to me, it sounds like the "hole" being described is a God-shaped one.

About my H being as or more devastated by my having A of my own. In our case I really don`t think so.<p>For my H to have had his ONS while I was eight months pregnant not for love but purely for the sexual thrill leads me to believe that he does not have the same emotional depth or sensitivity as I do. He felt like it so he did it and didn`t think twice about how I was going to feel about it. After the fact maybe but not all the months leading up to it while he was fantasising about it. For him it was just sex and according to his reasoning if it`s just about sex then it`s okay. <p>He has told me several times since d-day that if I wanted to have a sexual encounter just for the sex then go right ahead. He just want to know if and when I do it. His biggest fear is that I would fall in love with an OM. He is afraid that I would fall head over heels and wind up leaving him. The thought of me in a sex act with someone else does not seem to be particularily disturbing to him. I am not putting words into his mouth this is what he has told me. <p>I cannot decipher this. Is insisting that sex between me and another man would not be a deal breaker for him because he really does view sex just for sex (his reason for his ONS) or could he be trying to find a way to relieve his own guilt, punish himself for what he did?