After all I have done, and all the lies. How do you forgive?<p>I have read about it being a choice, how it is for her and all but how?<p>We had another long talk last night. It wasn't affair related, but more related to us and the future. She is so ashamed of herself right now for staying with me. She is angry at herself. How can I get her to forgive herself for loving me? She is stuck on that point. Everything I do gets clobbered. If I buy her the furniture she wanted, it comes across like I'm trying to buy her. When I made plans for disney world, same thing. I am trying but don't how to nudge her off that self hate post she is on. Today she is skiing with friends. She should come home in a pretty good mood. We are going out to dinner tonight and have friends coming for the rest of the weekend. I know she is looking forward to it.
She seems happy today. Like she was before this whole affair stuff crept back to the top of her mind. <p>I have read plan A. I am obviously not needing plan B. I have been plan Aing for along time. She said something last night that has me asking for your advice again. She said that she feels like she is waiting for someone to hit a switch and all the ugly feelings and thought will go away. So, how can I do that for her?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by A husband:
<strong>After all I have done, and all the lies. How do you forgive?<p></strong><hr></blockquote><p> It is different for different people. I am kind of wishy washy on the forgiveness is a choice thing myself. For me it sort of is and sort of isn't. I do have to make a choice to forgive, but it's only real in my heart if that's what I truly want to do. Other people have much different ideas about forgiveness, but for me it's a feeling I have or I don't. I was able to forgive my husband because he showed me how sorry he was and was doing everything possible to make it up to me. Plus I love him and I married him, those were good incentives. He was supportive, patient, loving and showed plenty of remorse. I think that's the best a WS can do. And you have to realize that it takes a long time for the BS to get over the pain & anger. Things can be going fine and suddenly soemthign triggers us and the feelings come flooding back. As time goes by these trigger get less and less frequent and less intense. Hang in there.

Thought this link might help you with the forgiveness question.<p>http://members.aol.com/avpsyrich/forgive.htm<p>Also, seems like you spending money on her is viewed as a LB. I can see how she would see you as buying back her love, your intentions are good though, better back off on that one. The trip sounds great, just make sure it is a mutual decision, let her be involved in the decision. If she balks at it, back off and let her make the next move.<p> She said that she feels like she is waiting for someone to hit a switch and all the ugly feelings and thought will go away. So, how can I do that for her? The only thing you can do is to continue Plan A and avoid LB's. That 'switch' is internal and its between her and God to figure it out. Just keep on keeping on and eventually she will come around. You two have a lot going for you.

Hi H,<p>Bottom line, you can't do that for her, she has to do it herself.<p>How long is "Plan Aing for a long time"? Plan A is a way of life in a healthy marriage. It is not something that stops once you've got a good recovery going. It's simply good marital behavior.So if you want a long lasting, happy marriage, make it a part of who you are as a husband.Your wife needs to follow that same advise.<p>Complete forgiveness for something that causes excruciating pain and rips apart a self esteem can be a LONG process. As my H and I enter into our third year working on a successful recovery I can honestly tell you I will never forget. I don't have horrible, ugly thoughts about it very often but it is something that is right on the edge of consciousness. It wanders in and out and it isn't pleasant.It's a fact of life after a spouse is unfaithful. It's difficult to accept and deal with that sometimes. A BS must be VERY careful not to let resentment take root in their hearts and to not repeatedly bring up the affair once all their questions have been answered and they have pledged to forgive and rebuild. It took me 2 years to ask my H all the questions I had. It took me a long time decide if I really wanted the answers to some of them. Therefore it was a while before the more nagging thoughts went away. A wise oldtimer around here has a signature statement that says "Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die." Resentment on the part of a BS will destroy a marriage's chance for rebuilding just as easily as unrepentance on the part of the WS.<p>I somehow didn't find it too hard to forgive my H. Our marriage has been struggling for several years. Neither one of us were meeting each other's top ENs. My H had been depressed for several years, but would never admit it. I can honestly say that it could have been either one of us to have an affair. He just had the time and opportunity before I did. It was easy for me to see his depression, his hurt, his confusion, and his human, misguided attempt to make himself feel better. He made a mistake, albeit a HUGE one, but a mistake nonetheless. I've made hurtful mistakes in my marriage too, just not the one he did. Does that make me any better than him? No. Does that mean that I don't need his forgiveness as well? No.<p>After a short separation we both knew we wanted to stay married, we really did love each other. We just needed to learn the right way for us to do that, in way that would keep us both satisfied, content and feeling loved. We learned that marriage honestly is work. It doesn't just all fall into place(that's a fairytale, not marriage). If anything just falls into place it's bad habits, self centeredness, and all the crises of living real life togehter. Keeping it good is work.<p>I would recommend Gary Chapman's book on "love languages". It appears your wife is feeling "bought off" with your attempts to be loving by purchasing things she's said she wants. It may very well be that she doesn't feel that things or gifts are the primary way to show love. You need to show her love in the ways that are most meaningful to her. The book can help you both to discover what makes you each feel most loved. It really is a good one and often recommended around here. All the best to you and your wife. Maybe she should post on the recovery board, we might really be able to help her.

A Husband --<p>"How do you forgive?" you ask. It IS a choice of sorts but one which needs to come from one's own internal resolution. In other words, when you arrive at that place, you'll be able to let it go and forgive her (and the OM too). It can't be rushed or forced. A large part of it needs to come from some restored level of trust in your relationship and my guess is that it's too early for that to be a factor. You need to give yourself and the relationship time to heal and you have to have the patience to allow that time to pass and to help. <p>I hear your pain and confusion and frustration. It's normal for you to feel all of these things at this point. I'm very encouraged that you two can talk at length about your relationship and can make plans for dinner and having friends over = all good signs. I feel positive about this even though you are concerned with "doing things for her." My two favorite healing words--Time and Patience--I pass them along to you. Some things, as much as you'd like to, you can't do for another person; they have to do it for themselves. <p>She's feeling tremendous guilt (she's "ashamed of herself" and is "angry at herself"), and rightly so, but she needs to work through that on her own. All you can do (Plan "A") is to be there and support her and love her and give her room and work on yourself. You can't "nudge her off that self-hate" place but you can be there for her when she comes off of it herself. <p>She (and you) might want to throw a switch and have this all go away, but it ain't that easy. Your marriage has suffered a massive wound and recovery takes a lot of effort, determination, cooperation, and time. But, you can't do it for her and you can't do it alone--you two have to want it restored and be willing to put into it whatever effort is necessary to do it. <p>Does she want to right the ship? Is she willing to do whatever it takes to put it back together? Does she want to save the marriage? Does she know how hurt you are by her bad choices? Lots of questions to which you may not know the answers at this point--and she may not know either. But they need to be put out on the table because you're at a critical place in your marriage.<p>Please post again and let us know how you're doing and hang in there. This won't be easy or quick but it's worth doing. We care...<p>Ammon

I have only been around here for a month or so, but I've learned so much from all these good people, from SAA, and from God's word so I'll throw in my thoughts. Forgiveness is an ongoing process, in my experience. When we forgive, we are freed from feeling the pain that the forgiven person inflicts upon us. If you believe that you are cleaved, or merged, with your spouse, than forgiving her is the same as forgiving yourself. And you don't just forgive once, but forgive every single time you become held captive by the memory of whatever you are forgiving. (That's the difference between forgiving and forgetting. Only time can make us forget.)<p>The best way I can explain it is to try to minimize or equalize every act. Forgiving your spouse, for example, for an A, should be no different than forgiving her for yelling at you over not doing the dishes, or her forgiving you for getting drunk with the boys and staying out later than you said. The pain of the A may hurt more than those other things, but it still comes down to sin, to a wrong act, and there should be no scale of wrong acts. It's just a wrong act.<p>I don't mean to minimalize anyone's pain over the A, I'm dealing with a ton of pain of my own, but I look at my WW and I see a beautiful, wonderful, special, woman who has many, many things to give me. Right now she may be giving them to another, but she is fogged up and deluded. When she gets clarity, she hopefully will return to be the woman I married, and we can write God's love story in the sand. That is my hope. But if we are trapped by the pain of unforgiveness, it becomes difficult to get past the past and envision any glorious future.

Once again, thank you.<p>I see it is going to be time. She mentioned to me last night that she felt she was punishing me by asking all the questions. That seeing me cry and seeing me scared didn't make her feel so alone in all of this.<p>I can see where I have to be more patient, less wallet activity and more hugs. <p>She seems more angry that I carried this info around and she never knew the whole truth. So it's like the affair is not the issue, it's the facts that she recently learned about. So she is in an awkward place. Old affair, but just now gainging the insight of what actually happened.

A Husband, The most positive thing that I can say for you is that you are HERE, getting advice to try to help your W deal with what you have done to her. Unfortunately, most of us here are BS's trying to help themselves deal with it. I showed this site to my WH after D-day and asked him to spend some time on it, to help both of us. He spent about 30 min. 1 time and that was it! HE was healed! Your willingness to try to help her in the right ways should be a big deposit in her LB. As you said, time seems to be the main thing, I just wish you could tell me where that "switch" is! Prayers to you both, Ladysing [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better past. Landrum Bolling

Rob's wife, What an awesome quote, I love it! I will try to remember and live it too. Ladysing [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Husband, when your wife tells you how angry she is at herself for staying, how she hates herself now, stress to her that to you she is love personified. Tell her how grateful you are that she stayed, how she is doing you the greatest kindness in the world at a time when you have let her down the most.<p>If she is like me, she is cursing herself for being weak (and staying) and you need to tell her that she is actually being strong in love. (Which she is.)<p>Husband, it took over six months for me to get past crying every day, asking my husband questions on every minute aspect of his affair over and over, and falling deeper and deeper into depression and torment. And my husband's affair was remarkably like your--no emotional involvement, just sex. Please hang in there--it will take a lot of strength to do what your wife needs, but I think it can be done. What you have to do is be the voice of calm assurance of your future together. You love her, you will NEVER do that again, the two of you WILL be happy again some day, you will do whatever it takes to help heal the wounds you've inflicted.<p>Good luck, husband.<p>Rose Red

You know, AH, she will probably get over it in time as long as you don't do something that makes her regret her decision to stay. She is still furious and her pride has suffered a great big blow. It makes one feel like an unworthy fool to be so deceived. Your job is to CONTINUE to Plan A her so that she knows it is worth her while and that you respect and ADORE her. <p>I fumed and fulminated like this for about 6 months but when I saw how sincere my husband was in his love for me, I calmed down. In fact, I haven't even thought about that for months and months. Just give her time.<p>[ January 19, 2002: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</p>

In the book, Torn Asunder, the author has charts that show that the WS's A and resolution of it and the BS's processing of the A follow the same curve pattern, but the line of the BS's curve doesn't even start to rise until around D-day. While the WS's line is leveled off (in your case for a long time), the BS's ride is just starting. He says to expect it to take the BS at least as long to process the A as it took the WS to have the A and recover from it.<p>For me, forgiveness hasn't even become an issue because the offensive behavior hasn't ceased. I do understand your W's feelings of betrayal of herself for staying. I struggle with this, too. You feel like you're "settling" or selling yourself short or something.<p>It feels like I will always see my H as a flawed man. I used to admire him, his strength, his character, his integrity. There's nothing to admire anymore, and if I'm with someone like that, what does that say about me? It's a constant battle for me as I try to decide exactly who I am with all this new information. I used to be proud I was this man's wife. I'm not anymore. It is quite a blow.<p>Since you're doing all the things I wish my H would do, it's hard for me to know exactly where your W is other than maybe still just the shock of it all. She's probably still reeling from the explosion of her world. Your best course is to remain steady as something solid she can hold on to and a soft place to land while she gets her bearings. Do more of what seems to help her feel better and avoid what seems to set her off.<p>I imagine she feels terribly manipulated. You held the strings of her life and dangled her around like a helpless puppet without her knowledge, making her past feel like a mere puppet show for your and the OW's amusement rather than whatever she thought it was. I can't even describe how disorienting this is. I absolutely HATE that all those months of my life were manipulated by others and I was given no choice in the matter.<p>For instance, right now I can be sorting laundry, and I will be reminded of all the times I washed his clothes, thinking I was simply doing the laundry, but now I know that what I was REALLY doing then was handling items of clothing soiled by THEIR orgasms. It is the most disgusting feeling to realize that other human beings could use you that way and not even give you the dignity afforded by washing their own sexual debris off their own clothes. Not only stab you in the back, but make YOU clean it up!!!<p>And how many times did my H kiss her or have sex with her and then come home right after and kiss me and my children and have sex with me? He gave me an STD. I was given no choice--I was forced to have sex with that woman.<p>It is this feeling of powerlessness over your own destiny that is so difficult to get over. As you look at the features of your life, you wonder if, just like then, you're later going to learn that this seemingly solid thing you're looking at is really an optical illusion. Not only can you not trust the betrayer, it's hard to trust that ANYTHING is what it appears to be.<p>So, all that is to say that my guess is that her problem with the monetary generosity is based on this feeling of manipulation. Probably above all, she wants to avoid ever feeling manipulated again.