My wife and I are being communicative and we've gone from flat out divorce to a legal separation on the table. I have a couple things I could use your insight on though.<p>1) What exactly does a legal separation entail? We're looking at it as if it kind of formal time for us to work on ourselves to we can decide down the line whether we are BOTH willing to work on the M. I'm just not sure about the legal side or what it's real intent is.<p>2) I have been wrestling with the decision about the house. Edit: I should add that I am out of the house for 3 months now but that was with the intention of making it work, before the affair came into the open. I want the house, I feel like it's going to be a part of my growth and personal development to make the house into something I want it to be. It will keep my hands and mind busy so to speak. She can't really afford it herself and selling it wouldn't be a real option because decent apartments are as much as my mortgage. I want her to be the one to leave the house because I worked so hard to provide that house for my family and she's the one who chose to leave.<p>I spent the last two nights comforting her while she mourned her loss for this guy. She just called as I was typing, crying and told me how she talked to him today. It hurts me so much because it was SO hard for me to comfort her through those nights and early mornings. I feel like she made a mockery of my sacrifice. He doesn't want to see her and she's being so weak when she's not that type of person. You know I was really telling myself that we might still be able to do this in time but I really need to get my stuff together and press ahead.<p>The thing about making her leave is that I know she will hate me for it. She's not going to see me as a safe place anymore and I most likely lose all hope of a future with her. She says she would take the baby with her but if I press it, I could likely keep him. I didn't want it to happen like that but I am growing so angry with her now. I told her I would wait to make a final decision until I went to counseling on Monday. I want to make sure I do this for the right reason. I feel like I've sacrificed so much over the years and need to make a stand so I can rebuild myself. Thoughts anyone?<p>[ January 19, 2002: Message edited by: Seeking_Guidance ]</p>

Seeking_Guidance,<p>Why do you want her to leave ?, you know it is harder to do plan A from far. Now A is ended, couldn't you hang in there a bit longer ?. You should try your best to stay and not drive her out.<p>Vent here and don't even mention separation. You are closer than what you think. Ask her to talk to Steve, to "help her". Steve might even want to talk to both of you.

I want her to leave because we can't maintain as we are now. She fooled me into believing that we would try working things out when I left, she even went so far as to ask if I could just do a 3 month lease. All that time she was with him.<p>Now that she's already given in and called him I think that I will move ahead with asking her to leave. Maybe she needs a dose of reality. She can take this crappy apartment that I moved into and have her folks help her (they're furious with her). <p>I guess I need her to leave because I cannot keep sacrificing for no reason, I can't pay for her house while she sees other people. I know some on these boards are doing just that but I'm not in sound enough financial position to swing it nor could what little pride I have left allow me to stand in the dark and see it happen.

Seeking_Guidance,<p>Just my opinion, okay? But you'd be surprised at what you can accomplish by NOT asking her to leave, separating, etc. and instead focusing on changing yourself, being amazingly patient and kind, and generally following the Plan A talked about here so much.<p>Some possible outcomes:<p>- She treats you badly, says nasty things, acts angry / depressed. But you just keep on doing things that make you happy, act confident, treat her with kindness, don't "push her", show her changes (the things that she might have complained about). She slowly starts to "come around". She may start to realize that you are worth fighting for, and you get your chance to rebuild your marriage - without having to separate!<p>- All of the above, but she doesn't "come around" very well. She maybe "slips" and continues contact with OM. This makes her feel good, but prolongs your agony. But you have a plan. You give Plan A some time - a maximum limit, but possibly flexible based on whether you are getting close to no longer loving her at all. Then you go to Plan B. You're no longer in contact with her, so you feel a bit better. She on the other hand begins to "come around" and realizes she does want to work on things. So again, you get a chance to rebuild. This option does involve separation, but only after some time laying a good foundation while in Plan A. Plan A is SO much easier if you're living together, by the way!<p>- The above, but she doesn't "come around" while in Plan B. Again, you've got a time limit here. So if it expires, you can file for divorce, and feel like you've given it an honest effort. And by then, your feelings will likely be such that you won't love your wife anymore, so divorce will only feel like some paperwork to do - not nearly as painful and malicious as many are.<p>So, if you've got the stomach for it, I'd second redhat... stay put! (Get ready for a rough ride, though!)

Seeking_Guidance,<p>You are hurt but don't do irrational stuff. I will give you different prospective and you need to think about it hard before you are comitting.<p>Your "time" outside the house is useless, why ?. You were not plan A'ng her and maybe LB'ed too, wasted sacrifice. I want to read MB and learn it inside out !!!. Instinct&Habit, EN, LB, LB$, plan A/B ... get SAA and read it inside out the first few chapters. Then you decide if you could "fix" your part of this marriage problem and if you are willing to save your M. It won't be easy, your past 3 months is nothing to what come ahead. There is guarantee but the only guarantee that MB will give you is a piece of mind. You will be a better person at the end and have peace within you.<p>This is my 2¢. A is dying, the only A is on her head. You are not ready to catch her since you have not done plan A. No LB and being a doormat and being enabler is not plan A !!!. Plan A is addressing all the issue(s) that your WW have with you and fix them so that you could be a better choice for her. You have to take her craps while you are in plan A, that is where the pain comes from. However if you look at the big picture it will helps you out. Now I want you to move back in the house. If WW asks, you tell her that this is your house too. Sleep in the couch if you have to but move back in. She can not do anything unless she could prove that she is in danger ... hope you don't have domestic violent records. It is an LB but one time LB it won't kill your chance. Then do plan A, plan A your butt off. Get medication, get plenty of rest and eat well, you are going to need it. If you are Christian, pray a lot and put the matter in HIS hand. Read 1 Corinthians 13:4-7 then read the book of Hosea. If you could spare some $$, get conseling from the professional, get it from MB directly.<p>Still waffle ?. Look, you build this life w/ her for a long time, could you hang in there at least 6 more months ?. If you kick her out you are facing Dv and maybe OM will take her again. You have more too loose than her !!!. Dv will take that amount of time anyway before finalized. A is dying, OM has second thought, her family doesn't support her act, money will be hard for her ... you add to the plusses to your side.<p>Good luck. I will trace your old posting to see if I could see something to add.

Thanks J.R. and redhat. I truly hear what you're saying but I'll be totally honest with you when I say that I don't know if I do have the stomach for a true Plan A. <p>I won't move back into the house while she's there because right now I am focusing on my Son. He's going to feel the friction and suffer because of it. I'm pretty much ready to make her actually face the consequences of her decision and have done with it. I tried to protect her from it but it's too high a price for me to pay. <p>I really get frustrated by the fact that so many of these WS's get away with trampling all over their families. The BS's love their WS's so much that they sacrifice their own self esteem for them. I don't think I can take that risk because I've given her alot of mine as it is.<p>I'm not going to make this decision until I speak with my counselor and make sure that my motivations are where they should be. I'm tired, I've given her all the comfort I had in me, she called him even after all that.....I'm not so strong as some of you good folks. Either that or I'm just more hard headed.....who knows? Thanks again for the input.

If you all agreed to you moving out for 3 months and the 3 months is up, then I agree you should move back in. Don't give up your house or your child. It may not be strict Plan A, but I'd move back into my own bed, too. Let her be the one to figure out what SHE wants to do. In other words, if moving back in is a one-time LB, I'd get as much mileage out of the LB as I could.<p>If you want to try Plan A, try it. You'd probably be amazed what you can do when you try. I've done things in the last few months NO ONE who knows me would ever have predicted. BUT so far I am glad I have Plan A'ed because of what I've proven to myself and accomplished for myself.<p>When the going gets rough in Plan A, you can do what I do. Sometimes I'm only able to avoid LBing by reminding myself that the guillotine of Plan B is hovering over his head and I'M holding the lever. Very powerful feeling that overcomes the doormat feeling. I'm able to let a lot of stuff he says and does go because I know *I* will have the last word. He may be walking all over me now, but not for long 'cause I'll be yanking myself out from underneath him when the time comes, and the better my Plan A, the more of a loss it will be.<p>It is nice during and after betrayal to feel like you, at least in one way, have the upper hand. For once, WE know something they don't--the Plan B train is heading their way. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] May not be the nicest way to think about it, but it's helping me stick to the program so far.

That's the thing which has me torn, we never came to a really solid agreement. We agreed to give it a try and find help but I don't know that she really intended to get that help because she was with him the whole time and more. She claims that she was willing but that my enabling the other man to break it off and not her has shown her how much she wants to be free of our marriage. I resent that because she says the night I called she was breaking it off and that I took that from her so now she wants to be done with me. Makes no sense to me whatsoever.<p>Of course having been there for her these couple of days she is starting to feel the pain on my behalf too. She called me today and said that she hopes that even if our marriage doesn't work that we can be friends. I think we can but it's going to fall apart when I ask her to leave.<p>I don't see moving back in while we're both there as an option but it's one I've started to consider. If she can't take it she can leave, I guess I could possibly deal with that. If I thought we were going to give our marriage a try I would be more than willing to live outside the home as we get help but she can't even commit to that. I know that part of rebuilding myself will include the house and doing the things there I wanted to do.<p>So, I'm still torn. I definately won't allow her to see another man during this whole thing. In a way it would be easier if she was still involved with him because then I could shut off my feelings long enough to make that harsh decision. Her family even supports me if I decide to do this but I just worry about her so.<p>Right now I am all decked out waiting for her to pick up my son so that I can go out to the movies. I need a little out time, time to make myself feel better. Maybe catch a couple glances from other women, even though I'm not interested in that right now. My son is foremost in my mind but I need some time alone to break down and build up some confidence.<p>I'm still determined to speak with my counselor about this. I'm convinced in my mind but I need to make sure it's not a spiteful thing.<p>Thanks for the reply, each and every one of them helps me and gives me some perspective.

I'm sorry I don't post very often, but I can relate to this. I almost walked out of my home at this stage but I decided that I had to stay. My self esteem was at rock bottom but I know if had walked out on the situation it would have been non-existent.

If you were to return home and assume your rightful place in it, it would be a definite plus for your marriage eventually. I had to stand my ground and maintain family life as much as I could even though I was dying inside with what my wife was doing to me.<p>Even though it is difficult to do, you must act as normally as possible, if you can hang on and plan A within your own home long enough and devote yourself to your family, it either helps them to see the truth in what they are doing or forces them to make a decision one way or another (eventually). She is the one who has abandoned you and your marriage. Don't validate what she is doing by abandoning your life and sacrificing more of your self esteem. Get yourself home ASAP.

ForBetterOr Worse: <p>I tend to agree with you. The A is over now, they were working to it when I lost it and confronted them. He's since told her he won't see her anymore so I have faith that they're done. I don't have faith that she will never talk to him again but that can be dealt with.<p>As for the house, I'm certain that she will want to leave if I return. In fact, when we talked she told me she needed to know if I was going to throw her out, guilt trip, anger and threats came out. <p>I have commited myself to my family, even her is she chooses to help make it right. I just don't think she's ready for it yet but she could be in time. Unfortunately she's going to view my putting her out as an attack and most likely that's where all hope ends. At this point I am willing to take that chance but I worry about her alot.

Seeking_Guidance,
Let her know that you are not going to throw her out and you need to move back in as financial decision, to figure thing out [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] . Play it back her fogesse. You nee to toughen up and buckle up. Plan A is painfull but not impossible to do it, just look around us.<p>Good Luck

No, don't throw her out S_G,<p> But, you move back home as soon as possible. Then, if she can't/won't work on the M let her be the one who decides to leave. <p> There are people on these boards living in hell. They are living with their WS and taking all the crap on the chin. There are some who sleep in seperate rooms in the same house. There are some who sleep on the couch in the same house. <p> Point is it can be done. Maybe things will start to get better in your marriage. Maybe not. But, you need to do this, whatever it takes, for awhile at least. You owe that much to your son, who didn't ask for any of this either. <p> My opinion is you stand a better chance of recovering the marriage, or, keeping the house if you are in the house.<p> jd

Well I was sleeping in another room for a long time before I left. Not much work going into a marriage when the other is out with another man, though I didn't know it at the time.<p>The house is mine for the taking if I choose. I am going over there in about one hour to discuss this with her. I'm planning to be back in the house, one way or another. I would rather she stayed and we worked on things but I honestly think she's going to leave. We have this apartment we have to pay for for another 3 months or so, so she has the option to come here.<p>I went to the movies tonight with the sole purpose of boosting my confidence in myself. Not only did I get plenty of glances but I talked with a couple girls and could easily have gotten a number. You know what though? It wasn't a confidence builder, it made me sad. I feel dead inside right now and I couldn't push for a number from someone I know I won't call. <p>We had so many problems but I've learned since coming to these support sites that they're SO COMMON and so fixable. I read the article here called "Why Women Leave Men" and the problems that she's told me she had with me (she tells me now, never back then. Instead she screamed and broke things) are contained within those first lines of quotes from other women.<p>I'm so sad about that but it's time to move on. She's taken and taken from me and it's time I stood up and claimed what I need to rebuild a life of my own. I only wish I could do it without destroying the friendship in her that I've missed over the years. The fact that I would lose it over this makes me think that maybe it's best. Wish me luck everyone, I'm going to say a quick prayer for us before I go over to speak for her. I'll mention everyone who shares here as well because we're all lost souls right now, yearning for someone to see how much we care. <p>I'll update when I get home or from work tomorrow morning.

I think Redhat's idea is a good one. Tell her your decision to return home is for financial and family reasons, and also that you love and miss her. <p>The other important thing you could do is claim your bed back, tell her she can join you if she wishes.<p>Chances are she won't, chances are she may leave, but you will not do your marriage any more harm, you will reclaim some self esteem as you will have some "control" back in your life.<p>If she leaves it will not be too much different to how things are right now. The difference is you will feel better and she may be getting a dose of reality on life without you and her home.

Oh my, I wish I could have made it more clear how I thought she would react. We're not dealing with the run of the mill person here.....<p>When I went there and sat down, things were good. I told her I wanted to share with her what was going through my head, regarding the house. I said that we built it together for the family and she can choose to leave it.<p>I can't describe to you the scene after that, it was nasty. She screamed, threw things, hit me, threatened me, told me she would kill herself before she left......<p>This is quickly sinking into a nightmare. She pushed me to the point where I finally got nasty with her. I'm dead inside to her, her manipulations aren't affecting me. Right now I'm concerned about focusing on my son and getting him the hell out of there.

SG,
So her true stance comes out. It would eventually anyway. Her tantrums were going to come out sooner or later. She has a lot of pent up anger and you are the primary target. <p>Many of us have been through that. I will tell you this is temporary but I can not say for how long. However, you do what is necessary for you and your child. That is all you can do right now. Her threats need to be listened to. If she is threatening suicide then you need to inform the authorities as you see fit. Get professional assistance on this. If this is just blowing smoke, this will come out, if it is real then help will be available. Don't take her threats lightly but don't let her push you around. She needs to see the consequences of her actions. <p>L.

Seeking_Guidance,<p>You push it, sorry I didn't catch you before you go. You should not go and let it go for a few days. She might need the time and you need it too but now you have two choices.<p>1) Be nasty. Go back there and "talk to her". She will go beserk, call 911 right away. Let police record it that she is violent and dangerous. File sole child custody and based on her emotional state and police report, you will have it. Then move back in to make her move out. I do not like this option, it not MB and you will reach point of no return.<p>2) Take a break from her. You need it !!!. Go to your family or close freind house and take refuge to your support system. You are angry at her and she is also directed all her unhappiness w/ OM on you. Let it pass for a few days and see how thing goes. I thought her family will visit her soon, let them speak for you. Do not ask them to say or prohibit them to say anything, just be a witness. You knew walking into this is an LB and you keep going. With MB, you should just be there for her and let A has its last breath, it is dying ... all you need to do is sit back and watch it die. IMVHO, this is not the end and you still have chance to save M. Let it pass, go to her tommorow or call her and apologize to her. State why you did it, not to justify but to let her know. Do not demand anything or implaying a demand, do not judge also ... state it as fact or FYI. You have to do plan B but not like this. You are wasted your time "sacrificing" and make sure you review your plan A.<p>Orchid is right, your WW is angry since her fantasy bursts ... she is angry at anything and everything and you walk into wounded lioness. Let it go for tonight. Call MB and get Steve's help, you need it.

I tried walking away from it, I did. I went there last night and I lay with her again because she needed me. I held her until she stopped shaking and fell asleep. I went there to make sure my son was okay.<p>She keeps begging me to leave her in the house because she has nothing else, it's her comfort zone. It's the only place she feels like she has a chance to keep a relationship with our son. She's using my sympathy and my feelings for her against me I think but I can't not feel anything.<p>She's along in the world now, her family is no help to her because they beat her over the head with it. I am so worried about this you have no idea, I don't know what she's going to do and I don't want to see her hurt.

Seeking_Guidance,<p>Be patience please. Show her your unconditional love, be there hang in there. She needs her space for now, she feels alone like you say. Visit her as much as you can, call her and talk to her as much as free time you have. Watch out for sign of depression, get ADD for her if she is showing the sign. But most of all, just hold her and be there for her. Right now as you say she is lonely, her fantasy burst in the big way and she doesn't know how to get out of it. If you love her just be there and wait a bit longer until you lease runs out.<p>Do not push her !!!, let her stays for now, it fill her LB$. Plan A'ng your butt off. Be strong be the anchor of your family. Spend as much time as she allows you to be at home and no LB !!!.<p>IMVHO, wrote a plan A letter and give it to her along with SAA. Use WAT's as a guide, tell her how much you love her and willing to work with her as long as she is willing. Let her know how much she means to you in this universe.<p>If you are a Christian, go to your elders in the church and ask them to pray for your strength&patience to sail through this storm, ask them to pray for the safety of your family and her emotion. Pray to Him yourself and let Him guide you and have faith that He will restore your family. Amen.<p>I do beleive you will have her back, but you have to be patience.

redhat:<p>More wise words and I can't thank you enough. I'm going to try and have the patience to get through this. I do love her.<p>I never thought something could be so draining. I'm physically and emotionally empty right now. I'm trying to fight off the growing feeling of indifference that I have, I know it's just my anger on a slow boil.<p>I will continue to update this thread so please keep an eye out for it because each reply helps me to get through this.