The Policy of Radical Honesty, that's what! I couldn't believe it.<p>For those following my saga, you know that my H competes on Monday nights where the OW works and refuses to stop going there or to take me with him. Well, I decided I was going to do something different, so I called there and they have another league on Monday nights, and I was invited to join because there were still openings.<p>When H got home, I asked him if I could have a ride there, and he said No and gave me a disgusted look and asked what for, and I told him I was going to play in that league. And he said what do you mean and acted all hostile, so I just said never mind and went about my business. He pursued me and started saying there was no other league on Monday nights, and I took the bait [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] and said there was. Then, he suddenly "remembered" and asked if it was the one [two people he knows and doesn't like] are in, and I said yes.<p>I told him just never mind, that he's already made his position on the issue perfectly clear and I have nothing more to say about it, so can we just forget it and move on. He finally left, but then about 20 minutes later he came at me again in kind of a tirade, raising his voice and mocking me and stuff, and that's when he threw the Policy of Radical Honesty in my face, mocking me about it, and accusing me of scheming this and springing it on him at the last minute while he's trying to get into his routine for competing.<p>I just let him carry on and only interjected that I just found out about that league this afternoon. Also as part of the tirade he relented and said that I could go watch him as he'd rather I did that than play with those people he doesn't like. But I didn't go because obviously he was angry and didn't really want me to go, plus I realized that's not what I really want anyway.<p>What I really want is for that place and everything else to do with his A to be eliminated from my M and my life. I want him to show me the respect of cleaning away the debris of what he did to me instead of it always being in my face.<p>But the Radical Honesty thing shocked me because I quit talking about the Harley stuff a long time ago because he was so hostile to it and wasn't "going to follow anyone's script", that HE was different, and none of those people know anything about him, blah, blah, blah--the usual.<p>He did kiss me good-bye, though, which was a surprise since he historically does not do that when he's angry with me.<p>I'm going to apologize when he gets home and say I realize it was a bad idea because that's not what I really want anyway, that while I do want to start playing that sport myself and I still want to watch him when he's competing, I don't want any of it to be done there, that what I really want is for that place to no longer be a part of our lives. I figure he's mad at me already, so might as well test the waters again and see what happens.<p>I also thought I might refer to the Radical Honesty thing and say that I thought he wasn't interested in doing those things, and do you want us to try them now? If it goes nowhere or turns into more LBing, then I can just stop, and tomorrow I can go back to what I was doing before.

Hate to be a downer, but maybe he brought up radical honesty because it suited his purpose.<p>IMHO his behavior was totally out of hand. It's obvious that he does not want you anywhere near the place. My first instinct is "what is he hiding". <p>I it were me, I'd show up unannounded next week to see why he did not want me there. <p>One thing that you might want to point out to him is that MB has several principles... honesty, care, protection and time. A person cannot really isolate the one that suites their purpose at the moment and ignore the others. He is not practicing care or protection by continuing with this activity and not letting you attend or participate.<p>I do not think you have anything to appologize for. He does... since when is it alright for a spouse to use anger and intimidation to control the other?<p>I don't understand where you think you love busted? You wanted to do something at a time when you were free. It would have been nice because you would be near your H. What's the love bust here? Your H love busted big time.<p>This sounds like an abusive encounter... and backing down to 'make nice' is a typical reaction... to try to stop the intimiation and anger by altering your behavior.. instead of him controlling his.<p>I'm sorry to hear you are going through this... where is the care and protection you need in your relationship?<p>[ January 21, 2002: Message edited by: zorweb ]</p>

Well, I guess I do feel responsible for throwing a curve when he's trying to psyche up for his competition. He's told me before how important it is for him to get into his "zone" and not be distracted. He's very competitive, championship stuff and all that, so I've usually tried to respect that and postpone dealing with anything that's not an emergency until the next day.<p>I guess I've just gotten to the point where I think any time he gets mad it's LBing because it totally LBs me.<p>I did go there unannounced right after Christmas. I didn't go inside, though, but I did leave that note in his car that made him so mad, telling him how much it hurts me that he keeps going there.<p>Maybe I should just lay it all out again and tell him I can't continue if he will not respect me enough to follow the extraordinary precautions and eliminate all possible points of contact with the OW.<p>I also came upon a gas receipt today from a station in that town dated 01/17/02, and I checked his route books and none of the customers he serviced that day live in that town, so I'm getting pretty tired of it. And that's just the stuff that jumps out at me. I'd hate to think what I'd find if I actually put some effort into looking. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]

Why oh why oh why am I such a wimp?!<p>I rehearsed my speech all night and never mustered up the guts to deliver it. He was in his distance mode and we barely spoke.<p>Now, today, I feel like even that speech was a waste of time, and I'd like to just ask him to move out, but I'm afraid I'll chicken out again.<p>He is obviously not going to give me the love and respect I need. Just in the last few days he blew off the Retrouvaille meeting (on Conflict Management of all things!), made that callous "missed opportunity" remark, and then got mad at me because of my pathetic attempt to invade his second life.<p>I keep asking myself how many times do I have to be slapped in the face before I say enough is enough? Why is it so hard for me to do what needs to be done?

zorweb said it...he can't just pick and choose stuff when it suits his purpose! If he doesn't follow the POJA, how can he throw it back at you? It's JOINT agreement, 2 people...<p>Conqueror you have been a saint! I couldn't do what you are doing...My H used to play cards online and got all into it...was all into his ranking and stuff..it is how he met OW. One of the things I asked at D day was to stop playing cards in that particular site. At first, he said NO, that he just wouldn't be on there when he knew she would be...THAT didn't work..she found him. Then he said he would only play if I was in the room.It is still addictive and was taking over our life again.I finally said NO MORE!!!It was Cards(!?) or me...<p>If it's the game that is so important to him, can he join a different league that doesn't go to that bar? COMPROMISE,in other words. My H plays cards online in other sites that are not attended by OW and are not as addictive for him. Maybe he wishes he still could but he CAN'T, if he wants to remain married to me.It finally came down to that in my house. Is he REALLY gonna choose a game over you and if he does, do you want to live like that? <p>Maybe he needs to understand the importance of no contact to your continuing relationship and what a stumbling block this is.

C,<p>I could be wrong.. but might it be hard because you are concentraiting on him and getting him to behave the way you want to, instead of concentraiting on yourself and what you need.<p>Change your focus and your ability to act for your own good will become easier.<p>This is not contrary to Plan A or recovery by any means.<p>Have you looked at the thread about doing a 180 in your behaviors? The concepts might help you to focus on yourself and it just might make a difference in how your H reacts to you.<p>As for what you might find if you looked deeper? Sorry to say but you may want to do this. Not so much to catch him but so that you know where you stand.

I did it. We had a big thing. I broke down crying. He took off mad. I think I would be okay if I just knew what was going to happen now or what I should do now. He took off without agreeing to move out, but agreeing to what he calls my decision about the M.<p>He says I'll never be satisfied and all that, that he's never been able to please me, that sort of thing, that I just want whatever makes me more of a victim. I tried once again to make the point that we are both victim and perpetrator all the way up to the door of adultery and I take full responsibility for all my stuff up to that point. I just don't think he hears me.<p>He accused me of judging him for those six months for the rest of his life. I explained I'm not judging anything, I'm just telling him what I need to recover from his adultery, that I need for us to deal with the adultery and dispose of it so we can leave it behind us, and in order to do that I need everything associated with it out of my life. I also said that it is not the months of the A that are the problem, it's these last 4 months that he has refused to respect me enough to dispose of the A, the continued contact and everything, that are the problem. I need RESPECT.<p>He says I won't be satisfied until everyone knows about the A [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] . I guess because I want him to stop going to that place and apparently he thinks the only way he can do that is to spill the beans to his teammates. [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] I asked why he'd have to do that, and I offered to try to hang on until the league ends so he won't have to inconvenience his teammates, that I'd try going with him to see if I could handle being in the jaw of the beast.<p>But then it got worse because I told him that while I wasn't asking him to give up the sport, I do want to matter to him more than it does. He insisted I do because he only competes one night a week, that he'd be doing it every day if not for me. That he needs it for survival, and I said I need the extraordinary precautions for survival. I told him about the gas receipt, and he said he didn't want to live with having to answer to me and explain stuff like that like a little kid. He also refused to give up the 14+ hours a week he spends with his parents.<p>Anyway, his whole attitude showed me that he is not ready to commit to me and the recovery of this M, but he took off just saying, Whatever, so I guess he's in the driver's seat again, and I'm left here wondering what to do. If I had money, I'd get on a plane, but I don't. I don't want to see him anymore. I want out. If he comes back I don't want to be here. I feel trapped. I guess I'll call my family and see if they can help me get out of here until he moves out.<p>Oh yeah, his last words as he was driving off were that I should have tried harder to stay married to my ex-husband. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]

I talked to my family, and the conclusion is that I did not give him a clear message that he has to move out, so I have to try to contact him to make sure the message is clear, and in case he refuses, I have to try to file for separate maintenance immediately to get a court order to force him to move out.

Dear C,<p>Plan B.....read up on it and read love must be tough by James Dobson. Then read CarolKH's story. <p>Important stuff here. The one thing is that begging and groveling at this point will get you nowhere. So stand yourself up. Wash off those tears, look in the mirror and say "I will move forward. I no longer wish to have the OW in my life and all that goes with her." For me I even said even if it means kissing WS goodbye. <p>Do some reading. Look for my thread it is about the plan A and plan B revisions on the plan a/b site. It might be on page 2. <p>Then post back. I think it will strenghten your resolve. <p>Hugz,
L.

I am definitely resolved now. There is just no point to continuing without a hard and fast recovery agreement (is there a copy of it on the site I can print off or do I have to copy the one from the back of SAA?) that BOTH of us can live with.<p>The more I think of the things he said, the more resolved I get. He tried to compare my few months of wildness when I was single before I met him to the months of his A. He just doesn't get it. And it still drops my jaw that he doesn't because he was a BS in his previous M. I guess he forgot all about how that felt.<p>I called the domestic violence center, and they confirmed that I cannot force him out of the house without a court order. I printed off all the forms I need to file from the county's internet site, but they're pretty involved, so I don't think I can get them done today. I'm doing all his laundry and packing all his stuff. I'm going to Email my Plan B letter to his addy.<p>I'm going to call him when he gets to his parents' house and tell him not to come home, that I will have his stuff delivered there, that without a solid written and signed recovery agreement I do not want to see him and after this conversation I do not want to hear his voice because it is too painful. If he gives me any trouble, I'll talk to HIS parents that he has kept in the dark all this time and ask for their help in keeping him there. If he insists on coming here, I will go to a motel until I can get an ex parte order so the police will force him out.<p>So, I have all my ducks in a row I guess except for waiting for the laundry to be done to finish packing his stuff. Should I bother packing in with his stuff my MB folder with all the stuff I printed off from the site about Harley's concepts and all the infidelity recovery stuff? I also have Trueheart's letter to WSs.<p>I don't know if I should bother with that or not. I've got nothing to lose at this point, and since he's playing ignorant about everything I've asked him for in the last 4 months, that would at least give him the answers in black and white in case he's ever interested. But maybe it's just me still trying to influence him. Let me know what you think about that.<p>While I'm waiting for the dryer, I'll read the threads you recommended, Orchid. I already read Carol's--excellent stuff. I don't think I'll have any problem with the no contact in Plan B because I've always done that when I break up with someone. Thanks for your support, everyone.

He refuses to move out, and he capitulated on some things on the phone, but then when he got home and I asked him what we were going to do, that we had to either work on a separation agreement or a specific marital recovery agreement, that I have to know where I'm going, he didn't answer. He just laid there with his eyes closed--deep in thought??? [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I put the MB folder and the court papers on the bed next to him and went to finish dinner. He's eating now, but still hasn't answered me, so I'm just going to start filling out the court papers and file them and have him served ASAP unless he does some kind of miraculous 180 before then. I am definitely through with the status quo.<p>What puzzles me is that he is very offended that I don't take his word for things, that he's "being judged from only six months" of his life. This is the same man who stressed to his rebellious children over and over again that it only takes one lie to destroy a reputation you've built for years, all about their lying and why we couldn't trust them.<p>When he seemed interested when we were talking on the phone, I told him that I am definitely not judging him, that I have friends here that are WSs that I admire very much, and I would like him to be one of them. I told him that maybe it is hard for him to hear the things I'm saying and hard to believe I have empathy because of who I am and having never walked in the WS's shoes, but there are WSs here who have been through the same type of experience that definitely have empathy for where he is now and they would be glad to talk to him. So far, he hasn't taken me up on my offer.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Conqueror:
<strong>Well, I guess I do feel responsible for throwing a curve when he's trying to psyche up for his competition. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Conquerer, I guess I don't understand what you did wrong here. Where is the "curve?" What did you do to upset him? Going to the bowling alley shouldn't upset him unless he has something to hide. Also, I don't see how you violated the policy of radical honesty, not that I am convinced that he has interest in it except in a self serving way.

Never mind, Conquerer! Seems I am way behind the curve here!

I know that when my H was in the "right place" he was doing things on his own (I did not MAKE him) such as he totally broke things off with EA because he said he did not want me to ever have to wonder. She wanted to remain "friends", but he would have none of it. He wanted totally away from her because he did not want to cause me one iota more of pain.<p>Now before we separated, when he was sneaking around with EA, there were places he didn't want me to be at certain times. He would go off on Sat and work all day, getting home around 8 PM, and on Sunday's after he went to church alone he started going into the office afterward and not getting home until 5 PM. That's how I caught him. Tried to get ahold of him one Sun afternoon and daughter of EA answered phone!! He lied and said he was at office, and I said, well I called there, and he said, "I do not always answer the phone". So I said, well I will call the ofc number and you pick it up. He said he couldn't cause he was OUTSIDE. So I said, "Well go inside and I will call you back in 5 min." Needless to say I called back for about 20 min. before he answered (he had been at EA's house installing a dryer for her, which I found out later he had bought her new...aaaaarrrrrghhhh!)<p>So doesn't sound to me like your husband is in the place he needs to be. Plan B sounds good to me--maybe he will realize what he is missing.<p>Carol

What kind of leaque is this? I am just curious if this is darts, as I am having major problem with my spouse and the dart leaques of the world.. who seem to encourage drunken irresponsiblity...! and affairs! If so, and I hope not, I say run from the darts and the dart leaques of america.. where everyone is drunk...! i could be totatlly off base, and hope I am... but this is a major issue with me... as darts is a symptom of the bigger problem... and as a marketing expert... thisis my area of specialty.. the clubs, bars.. whatever.. are just trying to get peopple to spend more time in bars, and drink more by having some drunken thing to do there... which encourages.. more of the above.. irresponsible behavior.<p>Hugs, honey [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]

I saw something about bowling, is that what it is, sorry about my obsession -- but it is all the same.. just another addiction.. I know what you mean about that PLACE!! My H just jioned a damn dart league.. goes with his new life... says he will not give up darts.. oh boy what a grown up????<p>See my post tongiht on what my mb therapist told me about plan a.... you can plan a with self respect... but I like the 180 plan! They do not get us, when they disrespect the marriage covenenat!<p> hugs, honey

Well, I didn't think I had revealed the sport he's involved in, but maybe I did. Anyway, it is a life-long thing, so not a new thing. That in and of itself is not a problem except for him not wanting me to go with him, especially since it's where OW works. Though now he wants me to come watch him, he says because he is doing better.<p>That is the excuse he gave me before--that he was doing badly and didn't want me to witness it. It is possible he is telling the truth about this. I do have access to the league sheets and know the line-ups and scores and all, so at least that part of the story is consistent. Also, I polled other competitors to find out if others felt that way about competing in front of their spouse, and some actually did echo that feeling, though most wanted their spouses there whether in victory or defeat.<p>HOWEVER, as I explained to him, he is no longer in a position to have the benefit of the doubt, especially when it comes to the OW and the place that gave birth to their A. Even if she didn't work there anymore, I would still want that place out of our lives because of what it represents. Also, I don't want either one of us to have a separate life that doesn't include the other. I want us to have one life together, where we do recreational things like that TOGETHER.<p>He is now doing the things I need about this issue. Before I spoke to him last night, he had already told one of his teammates that he was going to finish this season (I think it's over in May) and never go back there again, that he was through with that place and wanted nothing more to do with it. They both had worked there and were laid off, so he used the excuse of the stuff that went on surrounding that issue as his reason for wanting nothing more to do with the place. And he wants me to go with him every time now.<p>Last night he asked me to go to work with him today (he drives a route) so I could read to him the Harley plan and we could talk about it and develop our recovery agreement. I told him that I was locked up pretty tight in my fortress now, that I had just been filling out the court papers and figuring out a visitation schedule, so it's gonna be hard to change gears and I definitely will not stop protecting myself until there is an agreement in place that he will follow that will protect me.<p>I don't get the feeling that he is where the awakened (?) WSs here on the board are--is awakened a good word for what I'm talking about? De-fogged? If I had to assign a percentage with D-day being 100% fog, I'd say today it looked like maybe 50%. I did get kind of a sense of a defeated feeling, though, that I'm not that comfortable with, like maybe he feels like he has no choice but to appease me and pacify me, but maybe that's just his general depression.<p>I'm feeling like I should go ahead SLOWLY as long as he's following the steps we need to follow even if his heart isn't quite in it yet. We had some good conversation, some more stuff about the A and processing of that, but what really surprised me is that he has always felt like I was enamored of my ex-husband [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] , like I still carried a flame for him or something. This is a total shock to me because it is so far from what was going on inside of me, but I guess that just shows how spouses can get off on the wrong track.<p>One misperception like that can start a whole chain reaction and the downward spiral that we're all so familiar with. He says that's why he was emotionally distant and withholding from me, that he always felt that I wished he was my ex-H.<p>To give him credit, I don't think it's just some insecurity thing on his part because I recognize the things he says gave him that impression. My ex-H came up a lot in conversation because at that time I had spent over half of my life with him and had so many children with him, so in hindsight I can see why my H, given his marital history as well, might feel I was still too attached. Also, I remarried only a year after my divorce, so I was still dealing with some of the shock and still processing what happened to over half of my life.<p>I guess this is where Radical Honesty comes in because in my mind my ex-H didn't hold a candle to this H. This H was everything I dreamed of, everything my ex-H wasn't. My H even told me today that he worried I might not go through with the wedding, whereas in my mind that was what had given me so much confidence about marrying him--I never once had cold feet or any doubts whatsoever. But the night before my first M, I was trying to back out of it, and my ex-H had to talk me into going through with it.<p>So, this misperception led to his emotional distance and withholding, which led me to believe that he didn't really love me, which led to my distancing, which reinforced his belief that I was disappointed in him as a H, and the downward spiral was well on its way heading straight toward A-ville.<p>So, a lot of work untangling everything, but if we can get the new framework in place (the 4 Rules and POJA, etc.), then hopefully we can safely open up all the wounds and clean them all out so we can heal. I think he's being more honest with me about his inner feelings than he ever has. He's the typical macho type that avoids talking about feelings, so this is a pretty major step of faith for him, I think.<p>To sum up, I am feeling cautiously hopeful. At this point I have nothing to lose because I have the papers halfway done, and I can file anytime.<p>Honey, I did read that about what your therapist said about Plan A, and it sounded right to me. By holding so much in, not only was I hurting myself, but I was leaving him with a false impression, which is also disrespectful, so if we're going to truly practice Radical Honesty, I'm going to have to learn to tell him when things hurt me whether it makes him mad or not. And he's going to have to learn to respond without anger and disrespect.<p>And I am totally ROFLMAO about the dart leagues--the image of a bunch of drunks throwing darts has me just cracking up for some reason. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Have you tried participating with him? Will he let you? You could be the sober designated stray dart extractor. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Carol, your story has helped me understand the need for taking things slowly at this point, especially since I don't think my H is all the way there yet.<p>Thank you, everybody, for being there for me in this latest distress. I'm feeling pretty strong and grounded now, no matter what the ultimate outcome ends up being.

Conqueror,<p>Just reading your post makes me so sad, But you must follow through with your separation plans. He sounds like he doesn't believe that you have the guts to follow through with this. He is playing the same old dance with you Intimidate, intimidate and then say "he'll do anything!" Yea right! Just to get you to back down.<p>Whatever you do don't give in. Take a stand. He doesn't believe you have the courage. You must find the courage and change the dance/tactics that are being played within your marriage. <p>You deserve better. His attacks come from fear. Fear of you finding something. Fear of loosing you, but also fear of loosing his power.<p>Try to put forth little emotion in your dealings with him. Do whatever it takes to get away. For a day a week, months whatever it takes for him to take you seriously. Then you can start to negotiate the terms of rebuilding your relationship.<p>I know I sound bold and brash, but I sincerely believe that you are going to wind up hurting more by playing this game with him. My prayers are with you. Be a strong and courageous woman and show him how much you value yourself.<p>Take care,<p>Shaz

Conqueror,<p>Ooopsss! I missed the second page. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]
Sounds like you were able to talk this through. You might try reading a book called the Dance of Anger, by Harriet Lerner. It is excellent, and it will help you to avoid getting in these anger/withdrawl patterns. It has helped me greatly regain dignity and power within my own relationship. <p>We get into these dances/pattern with our partners and it can be very damaging.<p>So sorry to jump the gun! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Shaz

Shaz,<p>Believe it or not I did read Dance of Anger and Dance of Intimacy a long time ago (before this M). Guess it's time for a refresher, huh? [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>You are definitely right about the dance, but I am keeping my distance until there is a solid commitment to the plan that I believe is real and sincere. And if I do come out of my fortress, I will not hesitate to point out violations of the rules of care and protection, and if there is not swift correction of the problem, I will go back into my fortress and on to Plan B.<p>I told him this is not some kind of fit or threat or anything, that I have just gotten to the point where I am no longer fearful of losing him and ending the M, so now I'm no longer inhibited about telling him exactly how it is, and I'm going to let it all hang out, but in the safe Harley way with no disrespect, anger, or demands.<p>In some ways, I wish I had done this earlier, but I think you really have to get to this point of resolve in order to be strong enough to back it up, so I probably did what was necessary to get here.