I spoke with Steve H today and gave him the latest, told him of my conversation with my W two weeks ago. I also discussed selling the house. He believes my W is worried and confused because things aren't going as she planned. I threw a monkey wrench into her plans. He said her mentioning that "no one will have to testify..." and being quick to throw "irreconcilable differences" on the table are sure signs that she's scrambling.<p>He told me not to bring up selling the house until I'm ready to move on. I told him I'm not, I just want to be away from her. He said if the pressure or tension get to be too much, to just doing something, keep busy or get out for a few hours, which is pretty much what I've been doing.
I'll sit tight for now.<p>sad dad<p>[ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: sad dad ]</p>

sad dad,
Thanks for the update ... your situation is similiar to mine and I might have to play legal battle soon specially if I want primary custody of my 2 D. I am lurking always on your posts.<p>I did get away with not selling the property for now. I do beleive her time away from home is eating her up. I have appointment w/ Steve next Friday and I do beleive he will told me the same thing about the property.

Hi SD- I am slowly on the mend- not on the puter much to let my hand heal up that I fell on. Steve's advice is sound- I wish I had called him in the midst of MY problems! Do you know how soon your lawyer will start taking depositions? I think your W may crack if she has to start lying about the A on something that will be used in court. How soon will your lawyer get the phone records that show how much she has been calling OM? Hang in there! lifeismessy

redhat,<p>I wouldn't address the house issue until you're ready to move on. Enjoy the time you have with your girls.<p>lim,<p>I know my W will be called in next month for some depositions regarding financial issues. As far as depositions regarding the A, I don't know. I'm also not sure when I'll hear back regarding the phone records. I'm reluctant to call my lawyer about it because everytime I do it costs me $60+.<p>Did you break, fracture or tear anything in your hand, or is it just a sprain? Sometimes sprains are more painful because you don't usually immobilize the injury and it's easy to re-aggravate.<p>sad dad<p>[ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: sad dad ]</p>

Hi SD- luckily I didnt break anything in my hand- but I fell on the side of it with all my weight so it hurts all over and I cant type too much. Wow- $60 everytime you call your lawyer? No wonder they say counseling is expensive but a bargain compared to attorneys! My brother's wife had an A on him after 11 years of marriage and they divorced- he tells me just divide everything in fourths- one fourth for the spouses each and the other two fourths for their lawyers! He's probably right! Luckily they had no kids to complicate it. ( that was one of their conflict issues- he wanted kids,she put him off for 10 years then said never). My brother is still single now 7 years later. I had a small victory today- found a new marriage counselor I want to go too and she had an opening a month from now. And H agreed to go. We are switching counselors because we need someone fresh who can deal with the underlying issues we couldn't resolve before the A that led us to the emotional distance we had been in. I am tired of talking about the A now and need help on those big issues- lack of respect, conflicts about disciplining the kids, housework,money etc! We are no longer avoiding conflicts like we had for years before the A but when we fight we cant resolve anything!We go around and around on issues and cant agree on things. I feel kind of discouraged- first it takes so long to process the guts of the affair itself and THAT damage- then when I peel that away there's still cuts underneath to deal with! I am hoping going to a new counselor will help us with that.Do you think your W would consider counseling to benefit your daughter even if its not marriage counseling? Has she ever been to individual counseling for herself?lifeismessy

lim,<p>She might agree to some kind of counseling if our duaghter has a difficult time with this. As far as individual counseling, of course not. The problem is me, not her, that's been her mantra all along.<p>One other thing Steve told me yesterday. I told him I feel like I'm in stuck somewhere in between plan A & plan B. He said there is no in between. Since we are still living together, plan B isn't an option, so continue plan A. I told him I was concerned that plan A'ing while counter filing would seem contrived, phony. He said continue to be friendly, make small talk, etc., but just go about my business and distance myself from her.<p>sad dad

bump

lim,<p>My W is staying at her folk's this weekend to dog-sit. Last night my W told me she had something she wanted to talk to me about and wanted me to think about it over the weekend. She said she hopes we can work out as many of the details of the D ourselves and wants to do what's best for our daughter without anymore feelings being hurt.
It's a little late for that. I'm sure this was prompted by my lawyer sending notice for her to appear for depositions regarding financial issues. Her first deposition is schedules for 2/19. I don't know if this is a delay tactic by my lawyer or just standard procedure. Our financial picture is pretty clear cut, except for the percentage of her profit sharing that I'm entitled to. <p>I'm not sure how to respond. I may tell her that I'm willing to talk about anything, but I won't make any decisions without consulting my lawyer and I will follow whatever advice she gives me. I'm also tempted to tell her that right now my primary concern is finding out the truth about her relationship with OM, but I know that's probably not wise.<p>Any advice?<p>sad dad

Hey SD- I am AMAZED at the nerve of her saying how you should work out the details with HER so that your feelings wont get hurt!!!! Fog to the max there! Doesnt that make you MAD???? She knows full well how you are against the D yet implies you both agree to it!!!If I were you I wouldnt agree to talk to her about any D details. Tell her that's why you each hired lawyers. They do the talking and negotiating that's why they get 1/2 of all your money! My H used to try to convince me that D was inevitable so we might as well get the quick/inexpensive kind, that it would be GOOD for me!!??? and that we should get going on it all right away! I told him "Dont even talk to me about D because you KNOW I am completely against it." Remind her that divorce is not a 'friendly process' it's an adversarial process negotiated by experts in their field.This firm resolution is what made some of the fog in his brain start to clear out! Plus is spared me more unnecessary emotional head0 gane battles and pain. So there's my advice for you. I got that advice not to discuss D details from a very smart attorney at my church who he himself was being threatened to be divorced by his own wife. As for mentioning OM I definitely would not do that. She no doubt still thinks he is just THE GREATEST! That's what my H thought about OW! lifeismessy

sd.I'm not sure how to respond. I may tell her that I'm willing to talk about anything, but I won't make any decisions without consulting my lawyer and I will follow whatever advice she gives me. I'm also tempted to tell her that right now my primary concern is finding out the truth about her relationship with OM, but I know that's probably not wise.<p>snl...I think it is fine, she has filed for divorce, so it is not (IMO) a big lb, to indicate you need to understand how your life has been affected, and you don't know that. Are you famililar with the letter about being in a dark room and stumbling over things (the affair) they hurt you but cannot avoid them cause you don't know what they are...also so puzzle analogy, she has all the peices so can direct her life accordingly, but you can't, cause you cannot put the puzzle together? If not, ask in a post, someone probably has links. I would not be emotional/aggressive about it, but matter of fact and kind of put it as a mental health (for you) issue. I suspect the stuff she wants to talk about is to offer any settlement you will accept if you give up depositions/contesting....my guess a while back, and still is, she will give you physical custody if you push hard enough...but first will offer any financial settlement you want, and liberal visitation....another gambit (I mentioned earlier) will be a phoney recovery for some period of time so she can cover her tracks more thoroughly, and put more distance between the affair...then later when she files for divorce again, she can just say she had indeed made a mistake, but reconcilled with you, and the marriage still did not work....that would place you in a much weaker position. This would be a very cold thing to do, only you can assess if your wife is that manipulative, and weigh that against the possibility if she tries to reconcille (insincerely) that maybe with counselling and such you would win her back anyways, a long shot it would seem. Your wife is kinda um..... different, for most of us (ws) even if we are sneaky and lie alot, we really don't like it, and prefer to get it out in the open, and dealt with...it is a terrible thing to have on ones concscience...that doesn't seem to bother your wife much, that is not good. She is even willing to divorce you, and still not come clean, I don't think you can trust her at all, and should use the tool you have now (the counter-suit) to find the truth...even if she drops the divorce....unless she tells the truth, I think maybe going forward yourself would still be a good idea...for her rock bottom might just be shining the light on her behaviour. As long as she is focused on, and committed to keeping the secret, of "appearing" to be the goody twoshoes she is not, then I don't see her dealing with anything, ever....ya know? And even if you got back together and had some semblance of recover, the cancer would be eating away...anyways that's my 2 cents.

lim,,<p>I hope to clarify a few things. In her D petition, she claimed not the have the financial means to pay her attorney fees or to live to the standard of living she is accustomed to, and requested financial help from me on both issues. I think this is pretty much standard legal procedure, ask for the moon an negotiate from there. She has no realistic chance of me paying her legal fees or getting alimony. My lawyer is asking her to prove these claims, therefore deposing her. Just legal manuevering, nothing more. She would have been better off in the first place not to make these issues points of contention when she filed, but they may have been her lawyer's doing not hers.<p>She did mention discussing living in the same area for our daughter's sake. A legitimate issue that needs to be addressed, but premature since we don't even have the house on the market.<p>snl,<p>"She is even willing to divorce you, and still not come clean, I don't think you can trust her at all, and should use the tool you have now (the counter-suit) to find the truth...even if she drops the divorce....unless she tells the truth, I think maybe going forward yourself would still be a good idea...for her rock bottom might just be shining the light on her behaviour."<p>Knowing my W's family and the values she was brought up with, having an A goes sooooo much against those values. I think that's why she has gone to such extremes to deny it, the scorn of her family would be horrible. But add months and months of lies (to me and to them) on top of it, and she may see no way out of it (i.e. the truth). Even if the A is over, why admit it now?
It would make her the bad guy (not necessarily true, but may be how she sees it) and she would have to face the disappointment and scorn of her family.<p>I intend to pursue my counter complaint as far as I can. Even if she were to decide to reconcile (sincere or not), I would only be willing to do so with full disclosure of the truth, otherwise you are right, it will eat away at me like a cancer.<p>I will hold off bringing up OM or my need to know the truth until I get the phone records I'm waiting for. I'd like to know the answers to my questions before I start asking for them.<p>sad dad<p>[ January 25, 2002: Message edited by: sad dad ]</p>

Sad Dad,<p>I know it might be too late with people being hurt, but it might be beneficial for you and your W to work together. If both you can agree to a majority of the split -then why not? <p>My thinking is that if you know that the D is going to happen, then you might as well work together with W on details of the D. Of course both your lawyers will have a look at what you and your W came up with and lead you that way.<p>I have asked my W to go this way on the D, but she is spinning her wheels. She does not want to do anything as far as going forward on the D (she is the WS).<p>I don't think she is second guessing that this is what she wants. I think she is afraid what lies in front of her, as far as all the responsibly she will soon have. I think that she is trying to save money for a lawyer, and that's fine, but we need to move forward. No one is happy and it's time to move on.<p>Good Luck<p>Dino

Dino,<p>She wasn't specific about anything, just that she want us "to work out as much as we can ourselves".
I really don't know exactly what she's refering to<p>I assume she means financial issues. I'd be happy if our assets and debts were split down the middle and we each take half of what's left. The money in her profit sharing that I'm entitled to has to be addressed by our lawyers. I believe she's being deposed because she claims not to have the financial means to pay for a lawyer or live the lifestyle she's accustomed to. My lawyer just wants her to prove that. This really has nothing to do with me.<p>sad dad

Hi SD- my thinking goes like this- WS has enormouse guilt/denial going on inside herself. Most WS have some doubts about whether they truly want to be divorced despite their insisting that they do. Therefore, it is common for WS to try to make the divorce arrangements cooperative between the spouses so as to rationalize in their own mind that divorce is what's 'best' for both of them. If you go along with that I think that your W will have that rationalization in her mind and OM will fuel that fire since his goal is to get HER away from YOU! In my case, OW kept telling my H repeatedly that living in a loveless marriage was harmful to our children, that only SHE could ever meet his needs, that I would just dump him if he tried to come back home to me after a few months of playing nice, etc etc! My H was thoroughly confused by all this talk from OW. lifeismessy

lim,<p>Where did you get this insight? Is it from living this nightmare yourself or from a book? <p>Your rationale makes sense to me. I see no reason to "play nice" since this isn't what I want. I think alot of BS's play nice because they're affraid to rock the boat, but all that does is make it easier for their WS's to leave them. It shouldn't be easy.<p>I haven't seen any signs of guilt, but the denial is sure there. She may be keeping that all inside. She's been quite nice the past couple of weeks. My guess is this is an attempt to manipulate me into backing down. That won't happen. I have nothing to lose at this point. <p>Your advice pretty much parallels Steve Harley's.
He told me not to bring up selling the house because it will send up a white flag that I surrender. I've got to keep reminding myself that I need to look at her actions and disregard what she says. For someone so adamant about D, she sure is taking baby steps.<p>I spoke to someone at my lawyer's office today and he said it could take a while to get the phone records, so I'll have to sit tight. Thanks.<p>sad dad

Hi SD- Yes some of this insight into the minds of WS I got from books. Notably James Dobson's Love Must Be Tough discusses the mindset of the WS as does Harley's books and Dean Delis's The Passion Paradox. I must have read about 150 books about affairs and relationships during the months my H was waffling! Kept my mind occupied and I WAS a journalism major after all in college! Also having lived to the other side of this ordeal my H even tells me that he was WANTING me to make things easier for him, he was nearly baiting me into going along with his D plans. And of course OW fed right into his thinking. H says it was my RESOLUTENESS against D that was pivotal in turning around his mindset. Something to think about. lifeismessyPS I really should sell some of these books on Ebay now! My bed is so full underneath of all of them!

lim,<p>I think it's a good idea to clean out those book from under the bed. It might fill his EN for cleanliness (just teasing). I am a neat-freak myself and one of my major LB's was complaining that "everything wasn't in it's place". Seems so trivial now.<p>You mentioned several times things your husband said about D before and after he came out of the fog. While he was involved with OW and pressing D, did you feel that your "resolution" of being against D made you appear clingly, needy or that you were being foolish that you couldn't see the inevitable? That's how I feel, like I'm clinging to a false hope. The thing that keeps me going is hearing stories like your's and the snail's pace at which my W is proceeding with this. It really puzzles me that she isn't pursuing the D more aggressively. I want to believe that deep down she know's this isn't the right thing to do, that's why she's gragging her feet, and she wants me to confirm that this is the right thing for us.
Maybe this IS really what she wants, but she's affraid of getting it. Does that make any sense?<p>sad dad<p>[ January 26, 2002: Message edited by: sad dad ]<p>[ January 26, 2002: Message edited by: sad dad ]</p>

let me ask you two a question. You are both intelligent people, I don't really sense a co-dependent clingyiness from either of you...I think you both could (as many do) move on after a divorce be perfectly healthy, enter new relationships and have happy successful marriages/lives especially (and because of) as a result of this life experience (failed marriage) and the personal work done on yourself as a consequence. Have either of you (and especailly you messy, cause you are farther along) ever had a um..... I dunno, limit on how "resolute" you were gonna be? Let's see, um.... I guess saying you would never give up, your spouse would have to "leave" (do the divorce) but you never would? You would keep trying to "win" them back....this is a fairly common psychology for some here, and I wonder about it....it is almost like the "game" is the most important thing, that you never gave up, marriage is forever, and you will never be a part of the ending, and all that stuff (I am just trying to paraphrase and make this short, I could write a chapter about that, hope you get the drift)... To me, I find this scarey, and would not want to be the focus of such resoluteness, it doesn't um.... "feel" like love, it feels like ownership. It feels like all that is important is staying married to someone, and making it work somehow someway, rather than trying to ascertain how good two people are for each other, and letting go if not that good....it feels like the "reason" for the marriage is cause it exists, not cause it fits. It almost feels like stalking.....I will never leave you, I will never marry anyone else, I am always married to you, and so forth and so on, is kinda creepy like being stalked.....it is like I married you and now you are mine, and you belong to me, and even though you are trying to leave, I will make it as hard as I can, cause I love you. But near as I can tell when folks are doing this, they are doing it for themselves, not for the leaveing spouse who may indeed be better off in a different marriage, so how is that love? And if this person is such a match for you, and you were not married to them, but someone else, and met them, would you pursue them? Probably not, so you only want them cause that is the particular stranger you married, it is not them you pursue, it is the marriage you pursue.....am I making any sense here with what I am wondering about?<p>On the other hand, you have folks who say you wanna leave, ok, goodbye and they quickly (after reasonable effort, and self-change) move on, usually doing just fine in life. I wonder about the dichotomy of the two um..... life strategies, and what it means....can you pursue someone too hard lifeismessy? I can see where the act of pursuing someone might get them back, but is it for the right reasons? (fit).....or is it cause you are so resolute and relentless they succomb to the pursuit (kind of a human response). Then you have a kind of honeymoon period, as everyone "enjoys" this kind of outcome.....but does it last? Will the marriage remain happy, and nurturing, forever? Or does it slowly go back to (if not the same) to a kinda ho hum, place each turns away, cause the marriage was not equally pursued so is not valued by the pursuee? The concept of one person being resolute, and pursuing for a long time, and the other just kinda drifts back in, just somehow feels like a shakey foundation for a successful marriage. I think human beings all respond in some degree to attention, and certainly being resolutely pursued by a spouse feels up ones admiration needs, and could "fix" a marriage for a time, I just wonder if it is a good deal for the pursuer....ya know? Personally I don't think I would do that, I think a ws should realize very quickly they do want to be married (or at least very quickly take accountability, and be willing to do the work to find out the truth), otherwise I don't think I would consider them marriage material....having to work that hard just to get someone back, would tell me they are not worth it, will never be safe, will never be nurturing, it tells me I will always be doing the work, the one holding the marriage together, the other just along for the ride....and I see that in many of the stories here....what interests me is why people would choose such marriages (back to settling again I guess)....<p>anyways this is more toward lifeismessy I guess, but sd, you could be starting down that road too, and I wonder how far you would travel it. Kathy's plan of making her H want her also concerned me alot, again why bother, who would want a marriage based on getting someone back...but at least it made a little more sense, her H had to "earn" his way back by pursuit...it remains to be seen how long he (and others won back by michelles techniques) will value his "conquest", and be a safe nurturing spouse... both of these techniques...resolute pursuit (by way of plan a and/or b) and this 180 stuff creep me out it feels like a game, something to win, and not a focus on whether two people fit, and are the best choice for each other....and I gotta think if you have to go to these extremes to get someone back, they aren't worth it, and it won't last....so what is it that makes people do this? and plz don't say love, cause has nothing to do with love, it is cause you want to do it, for you....but why do you think that makes for a good foundation, and will last?<p>This is probably why thinker and I are having such trouble, the MB stuff just feels like a pursuit, not a focus on should we be married, and when I am essentially told my feelings don't count, cause they are the wrong feelings, I find that hard to deal with, the pressure to "perform" is relentless and I don't want to be "won" back to the fold, I am not a prize (and no comments from the peanut gallery plz).<p>So I dunno, maybe this will just annoy you, hope not, and I kinda rambled and such, not sure I really asked the question right...I guess it is sort of...are their "wrong" ways to "recover", meaning maybe you shouldn't have recovered but let go, and moved on?

snl,<p>There may be wrong ways and right ways to recover, just as there are wrong ways and right ways to divorce. My W is not divorcing me the "right" way by not putting all her cards on the table. D may be the right thing for us, but we won't know that because we've never had the chance to address our problems without a third party involved.<p>I'll be fine either way, but the affect this will have on our daughter will immeasurable. Besides losing the only home she has ever known and not seeing her mommy and daddy every day, there are longer term affects. My W and I live in a good area in one of the top school districts in the state. Should we D, neither of us will be able to stay in this area and the quality of education our daughter recieves will be less than the best.<p>I don't want this D because I truly believe given the chance to work on our problems, my W and I can have a happy, loving marriage. My W wants this D and there's nothing I can do about it. But I don't have to share her beliefs that our marriage is doomed and this is in the best interest of all of us, and I see no reason to go along with her beliefs just to make this amicable. That would make me a hyprocrite.<p>If and when we get divorced, I'll be much better off than my W, financially, emotionally, etc.
I'll know I did everything I could to keep my marriage together and I'll be able to look at my daughter and know I did everything I could to keep her family together. I'll have no guilt to deal with, my W will. I'm not saying kids are a reason for two people to stay together, but they are the best reason for them TRY to do everything they can to stay together. My W hasn't done that and that will be her burden to bear. Am I trying to be the white knight that comes in to save her from that burden? Yes I am (whether she wants me to or not), because I love her.<p>As far as your comments to lifeismessy, she doesn't need me to defend her. I don't think it's fair for you to question her methods since her marriage's recovery seems to be going better than your's. She and her H appear to have recovered from his A. The test will be whether they can recover from the problems that lead to the A. Time will tell, and I only hope I'm in her postion someday.<p>sad dad<p>[ January 26, 2002: Message edited by: sad dad ]</p>

sd, what I asked about doesn't apply when one does not have all the facts, as you don't, so your short term choices are pretty fixed, and you are doing what I would do....I was more curious about the pursuit, after the cards on on the table... and how the intensity of the pursuit can become the goal itself, and not a healthy marriage. I have watched this process for some time now (through the stories people offer), and wondered about the soundness of such recoveries...I think it is possible, even common, to "win" ones spouse back when the healthy thing would have been to let them go...people respond to hard pursuit, and that is not love at all, it is a game.... I guess I kinda view the um.... successful foundation of a relationship as a kind of mutual pursuit, and when this is unbalanced I am not sure at all the marriage is on stable ground, and that the pursuer will ultimately be disappointed again, or always have to be "pursuing" to keep the interest of the pursuee, I see this as very one-sided psychologically, and I see that outcome often here on the boards. In any event the whole thing was prompted by lm portrayal of her resolute pursuit...and I was certainly not knocking her, or wish her anything but the best....but the truth is the truth sd, and it must be pursued too, or we build our lives on shifting sands...ya know?<p>re your daughter, for whatever it's worth (in terms of anxiety over her welfare), there is a thread on divorced referencing an exhaustive study (done over a 30 year span) re the effects of divorce on families. It is not about advocating any particular behaviour or choice, just data re these kinds of issues, you might be interested. btw, as a little background re me, my mom divorced my dad when I was 4, and never successfully remarried (had one useless stepdad, not a bad person, but useless as a role model/mentor).... I remember what it was like growing up that way, and would not want anyone to have to do so, it is the main reason I have remained married for 24 years (4 kids)....but now that I am on the other side (youngest is 16, 3 are young adults), I am not so sure I did the best for them, they have issues from the conflict between their parents.... I kinda think it was a draw, with the lean toward being better we stuck it out(for them, not for us, we are pretty battle scarred)....but it has been a very rough way to go.