Last night my WW opened up a conversation with me, at 10:00 pm (which is well past our agreed "talking time") by telling me that she has to "take care of this". I asked "what does that mean". And she said that she was sorry for hurting me and tearing apart our marriage. I said the first step would be to "end it" (the A). She said "I know that. You have told me that already. I've heard it all before. etc" I then said lets not talk about it anymore (since she was getting annoyed)and went to bed.<p>This morning I slept in. When she asked me why I said I had a rough night, laying awake trying to figure out what is going on, and trying to plan for and make decisions regarding my future and my daughter's future. WW said "What about my future?" I said "You tell me-you are in control of your future". She said "I told you last night that I will take care of this. I do not want to leave my family." So I finally took a stand and said "I don't have any faith or trust that you mean what you say. You have had 7 weeks of my knowledge of this A and yet not only is it continuing, but heavier and more blatant than ever before." ( I guess I LB'd) She said I always want a quick fix to everything, that I have no patience, that I have to trust her to deal with this.<p>This is the same stuff she has been saying for 7 wks! Yet by everything I have read on PC, OM has no idea she is even considering ending A, if she really is.<p>Anyway, on way to train, she asked me point blank "Do you really want me, Mark?" I said "Yes, with all of my heart." She asked "Why would you want me after what I've done?" I told her words to the effect that "You are my one heart's desire in life. God has given you to me for a time, and I want to use that time to cherish you, and honor you, and make you the happiest wife on Earth. I know you may find it hard to believe, or to trust my new behavior, but it is true and it is real. I want no one else in my life, but you."<p>She got very sad and kept saying "I'm sorry. I'm sorry". I told her that she was forgiven, not to worry, everything will be OK.<p>As we got to train station, she had calmed down, and steeled up. I told her I wasn't forcing her to make any decisions, but if she won't make any decisions, I have to start taking control of whatever I can, like finances and my daughter's future. So WW says, defiantly, "Look. I know what I have to do and I'll do it, OKAY? I won't break up our family. Just leave me alone for awhile and let me take care of this."<p>My question: Is it okay that she might end the A just to keep family together? Will that really work? Won't she hold major resentment against me for thinking I forced her hand? And won't OM not accept that decision, since he thinks he offers her a better family than me?<p>I know I'm getting way ahead of myself (I am majorly impatient) and this may just be another of her delay tactics, or more of her indecision. But I'm dealing with a woman who while she is with me most of the time is my normal wife (minus any affection). That is, she wants to do stuff with me, we laugh, have fun, make plans, she even asked me to take her to our Christian fellowship Valentine Dinner (couples only). And as soon as I'm gone it seems like she is on the PC, calling him on phone, seeing him, etc. I honestly wonder where she gets the energy to lead this double life! <p>I have left her Harley's SAA but it has gone untouched for two weeks even though she has promised numerous times she would read it. My patience is growing thin. Any advice?<p>[ January 28, 2002: Message edited by: Boppo57 ]</p>

Years ago I was a WS. If your wife really wants to leave she will, regardless of the kids. Your wife won't be just staying for the kids. She's staying for you too.

7 wks is really a very short time, know it doesn't feel this way to you but it is. <p>Have you read SAS. If not go buy it today and read it tonight.<p>But if your wife is talking about ending the A, it is most likely good but after a period of 6 months or so that is a different story.<p>My STBX lied to me for over 2 yrs about ending it. I was really dumb. I wanted to believe him so much, even when I knew I shouldn't I did. There were reasons I never ended in Plan B, and not going there was a mistake. Would it had saved my marriage most likely not. I believe my STBX is having one of the few A's that will last. He will do everything in his power to make it last. He gave up to much to be with her, so he would have nothing if the A ends.<p>Good luck, keep hanging in there for a while. Plan A. no LB's and have you talked the Steve, he can help you with a timeline & a plan.

Boppo: I'm wondering the same question. My wife ended hers finally, though I think she feels I "forced her hand" as you put it earlier. I just let her know how much talking to him continued to hurt me. She eventually did stop after promising for a while.
Since it didnt end "naturally" she still has feelings for him that are pretty strong. I'm not far into it so I can't tell you much.
I think you probably CAN get your wife to stop, though she may resent you for it as you said.
Does it matter how an affair ends? I don't know my wife would not tell me how she stopped conversation. She said "it should be good enough that she did it right?"
I guess so.<p>I think if you can boppo hold on do your best to make it her decision to end it for the sake of the marriage or kids even.
good luck!

My wife says she was in the process of breaking it off when I finally forced her hand. That drove him to make that last break and I think she resented me because of it. It's been about a week since she had her last talk with him, she assures me she hasn't spoken to him since.<p>She's doing better every day. I think she's getting over him just fine. One thing she did share with me was that she felt the greatest pressure to call him when her and I were fighting so if she really breaks it off, you might want to be extra careful about not LBing and also be there for her when she's down. I let my wife cry on my shoulder the first couple days which were hard on her. It hurt me alot but I needed to be there for her.

Hi Boppo,<p>Depends on what you mean. Bottom line is that you can't recover until the A is ended, no matter HOW it ends.<p>Your recovery will be different though depending on how it ends.<p>There's no "right" way to have the affair end!<p>If recovery happens after the natural death of the affair (which could take 2 years or more) your WS will not have the fantasies of "love-lost" that a WS who ends the affair at it's height.<p>When my H and I tried to recover before he was emotionally "done" with the OW ... I heard all kinds of angry outbursts on his part accusing me of being the person who ruined his chance with a woman who was "magnificant" and "the only woman who ever made him happy". My H still hadn't really experienced reality with this woman.<p>But when we started recovery after the death of his affair, things were much different. Sure I still hear good things about her, but its alot more realistic. My H knows she was bad for him, and sees alot of her faults.<p>The resentment directed at me for standing in the way of his happiness with her is not there.<p>The committment on his part is much stronger as a result.<p>But it doesn't mean that you can't recover if the affair is aborted at its height. It'll just be different and have its own set of problems.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by BrambleRose:
<strong>Hi Boppo,<p>Depends on what you mean. Bottom line is that you can't recover until the A is ended, no matter HOW it ends.<p>Your recovery will be different though depending on how it ends.<p>There's no "right" way to have the affair end!
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>
I agree. I think I am lucky in that my H ended the A on his own without me forcing his hand at all since D-day didn't really occur until after it was over and OW called me. It was totally his choice. He got to spend enough time with the OW to see that the gras wasn't greener at all and he had made a big mistake. Also since she started LBing all over the place prior to him dumping her
ending it, and then acted like a Fatal Attraction after it was over, it didn't exactly leave much room for him to have lingering fond feelings for her. I think recovery would have been harder if she had dropped him at the height of things (fat chance lol) or if she hadn't turned psycho when it ended. But people recover from all sorts of situations. The important thing is that it ends and that the ending isn't open ended.

Wow! It really boggles my mind as an XWS how many WS's have the nerve to hold their BS's in contempt over an A!
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>When my H and I tried to recover before he was emotionally "done" with the OW ... I heard all kinds of angry outbursts on his part accusing me of being the person who ruined his chance with a woman who was "magnificant" and "the only woman who ever made him happy". My H still hadn't really experienced reality with this woman.<hr></blockquote>
My opinion is what some nerve! My H would pop me one, I think, and I wouldn't blame him (although he really wouldn't). When are the WS's gonna wake and smell the coffee?<p>Btw, DO be a bit careful when the LB bug bites you---I sometimes find myself thinking vengence thoughts with the OM when H and I are fighting. Try not to, but I guess we all dream about a refuge and a white knight.<p>[ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: diddallas ]</p>

what really matters is not HOW it ends but that it DOES end. Forced hands mean longer emotional ties.....the affair didnt just " burn" out liek they do, they were forced out. and people always want what they cant have dont they? specially US WS???<p>the AFFAIR has to be OVER emotionally, physically, mentally BEFORE u can move on. period.<p>merch
WS

Boppo,<p> I tend to agree with the thought that things will be difficult at best if your wife is forced to give up the A. My W had some deep emotional ties(read in love)to OM#2. She was forced to end the relationship with him, though not necessarily by her choice. When she told him I was aware of the A he said "so what". Then he quit going to her work. Started avoiding her etc. While the words were not spoken, he broke it off with her/forced the end.<p> For a long time after that she tried to see him. Then she realized that he was only using her for sex. Problem is, now she is in search mode it seems. Looking for someone or something to fill some void in her and ruining our chances of ever recovering.<p> It would be easy for me to say that the best thing that could happen is for the A to end no matter what. But I just don't know anymore. <p> Boppo, if it does end, don't waste the chance to win back her heart. NO LBers, NO A TALK. You may only get a short window of time to help her love you again. Turn that chance to gold if you get it.<p> jd

It does matter...<p>It has to be her decision...if you coerce her into it, it will be destroying a precious thing. Don't you want her to decide on you? Decide to come back to you on her own?<p>When my SO and I first went to therapy, I had not yet cut contact with the OM. The therapist said that no one would tell me to end contact, and that SO would have to just "deal with it". At one point after this, outside of therapy, SO tried to issue an ultimatum...stop all contact or else. Heh...all it made me was resentful and determined, more than ever, to do things MY WAY for a change...needless to say it made the process longer. <p>Therapist told SO that he made a bad move by doing this to me...it sounds harsh...but his point was that no one can tell someone else how to live. Eventually I came back to the relationship and decided to end contact on my own (again, this was my decision!). Therapist said after I did this that he would never "tell" me to end contact because it was important that it be something that I WANTED to do, without being coerced into it. The very thing that made the slide into this situation so easy to begin with was the fact that my life felt like it was out of my control...that I had no say, no voice...it was escapism, but also a desperate attempt on my part to regain some kind of control. Affairs are often a manifestation of the WS's disatisfaction with their life in general...and it's easy for the relationship to become the "focus" of those negative feelings. <p>Consider every LB you put out at this stage to be held under a magnifying glass. She's trying to make the decision that she feels is best for herself...you cannot control her, coerce her or try to force her into this decision by any means if you want her to be sure that she's made the right decision by remaining with you (and her being sure, and happy, is more important that staying together "no matter what", right?....RIGHT?). Be strong...all of this "I don't think I can go on like this" talk is only going to sound like manipulation to her until she figures out what she wants. Patience and empathy are your best allies right now.<p>Good Luck

OH MY G0D! I really can't believe this. This poor man has been living for almost two months with a woman who is rubbing this affair in his face, and people are telling him he has to take it? Why? Why should he have to live like this? She is doing something immoral an unethical and it is reasonable and right that she should have to end it or get out.<p>I guess I can only speak from my own experience, but when I found out about my husband's affair (the other woman's adult daughter called me after her mother confessed to her-- after getting caught) I aksed him if he wanted a divorce, and he said he did not. I told him he had to call her immediately, in my presence, and end it. He did. If he had told me he wasn't sure, or he wasn't ready, I would have asked him to leave until he made up his mind... with no guaranty that I'd be willing to take him back.<p>It didn't end all contact, becasue she continued to call him. And he told me that he had been trying to work up the courage to tell me for some time, so he was closer to be emotionally ready to let go of the double life than your wife was and is. But it would have been intolerable to me to live with a man who was actively betraying me.<p>Mark, IMO, you have every right to tell your wife the game is up: you will not live with this another day. If she needs more time, she can get out and take all the time she needs. You have been more tolerant that she deserves. I am so sorry for your pain.

Yes, it's not right, or fair...but this is what it boils down to.<p>While your WS is still fence-sitting, you're in a form of competition. Whether it's with the OP or with the freedom of being single, that's what it is. You can hold onto your sense of victimization and righteousness all you want to...but if you express these feelings to her, it'll just make you look less appealing while the OP is making those love bank deposits. Don't let the OP have this upper hand!<p>You are trying to make yourself look like an appealing option at this stage by doing an effective Plan A. Your WS is not yet ready to help you deal with your pain...they are still very much absorbed in their own world.<p>You don't have to do this, Boppo...you always have the option of leaving. That's the beauty of the situation...no one does anything here because they have to...they do it because they want to, because the work and effort are worth the end result. She will help you when the time comes...you WILL have an opportunity to deal with your pain, and your WS will help you...but that time is not now.

Charynne: Trust me, is not that he, nor the rest of us have not thought about that. It would be a million times easier to move on for some of us.
You wrote:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> OH MY G0D! I really can't believe this. This poor man has been living for almost two months with a woman who is rubbing this affair in his face, and people are telling him he has to take it? Why? Why should he have to live like this? ....But it would have been intolerable to me to live with a man who was actively betraying me. <hr></blockquote><p>Why stay? Love, kids, history and countless other reasons Im sure he could tell you why he still loves his wife and would go through hell (like he and the rest of us are going through) for her. Walking away would be easier yer, but I know personally if I did, I would never forgive myself for not trying with all I had. HELL yes it hurts. It is the worst thing in the world for your spouse to betray you and all you had not only behind you back, but then in your face. It is not intolerable, but damn close to it. I hold onto my love for her and the happy times I remember. I also take culpability for MY own actions which caused the fracture in the marriage in the first place. there is NEVER of course in my opinion a justafiable reason for an affair, BUT if the marriage was perfect and we BS' were meeting every need, why would there have been an A in the first place? So best we can do as BS' is to try to fix what is wrong in ourselves. Even if it doesnt work out, that way if for whatever reason we DO have to move on, God willing, we will not repeat the same failures in our next relationship/marriage. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Mark, IMO, you have every right to tell your wife the game is up: you will not live with this another day. If she needs more time, she can get out and take all the time she needs. You have been more tolerant that she deserves. I am so sorry for your pain
<hr></blockquote>
Mark you have the right to do whatever you want of course. Noone should tell another how to live or love, but that goes to how you treat your spouse also.
An Ultimatum MAY work and in cases it does, but if the marriage relationship is fractured. she does not love him at this time or her love is overshadowed by her fog/feelings for the OM, and he makes her choose NOW. who do you think she will stay with? Do you really think that is the right choice? To start we have to plan A. fix ourselves and do our best to meet the WS' needs. Do what we can when we reach our limit or see no progress plan B is it seems that ultimatum or that major desicion making time.<p>Charynne, Im glad it worked for you, it sounds that your marriage was a little stronger, or your WH did not have a strong EA with the OW. But please don't misunderstand our advice as uncaring, unfeeling or ignorant, trust me we have all thought Loooong and hard about these issues.

Bump: because I want to see if others feel this way or I am just spouting like an self righteous idiot. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Charynne:
[QB]OH MY G0D! I really can't believe this. This poor man has been living for almost two months with a woman who is rubbing this affair in his face, and people are telling him he has to take it? Why? Why should he have to live like this? She is doing something immoral an unethical and it is reasonable and right that she should have to end it or get out.
*********************************************<p>Amen to that sister!<p>Your advice sounds like a straight to the point version of Dr. James Dobson, in his book Love must be Tough.<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ January 25, 2002: Message edited by: need2know ]</p>

Boppo,<p> The fact is that you cannot have it 2 ways. Ok? Either use the tools of this site for the chance at recovery, or use the instructions of someone else, like Dobson. I don't necessarily disagree with Dobson or anyone who goes by what he says. <p> Dobsons advice works wonders for some people. But those whose spouses could go either way may want to fully consider the harshness of some of his advice. <p> Read this from Bramblerose, it may fit for you. Maybe not, I admit I have trouble with some of it.<p>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=37&t=011930&p=<p> Whichever way you choose, tough love or Harleys methods, don't waffle back and forth between the two. Mixed signals are major LBers. <p> jd

I am asking this sincerely, not rhetorically-- where does Dr. Harley say that a BS has to live with a WS who is still actively engaged in an affair? I understand about Plan A'ing for a set period of time--I keep seeing 6 months, I don't remember if that's a recommended time or what-- but I thought that was to give the WS time to come around to reciprocating on providing for the BS's ENs? Not that a BS has to put up with the continuation of a flagrant affair for that time? If I'm wrong, please show me where it says that.<p>Of course Boppo has to decide for himself what is most important to him. But so does his wife! He is in such pain, and she has the best of both worlds.<p>I do appreciate that those of you who have been in this situation have very different perceptions thn I do. But it seems like an unbearable burden to Plan A for months in the face of continuing adultery.

OK, I found this:<p>"There are three parts to the way affairs should end. The first part is revealing the affair to one's spouse, the second part is never seeing or
commmunicating with the lover again, and the third part is getting through symptoms of withdrawal after a permanent separation takes place. <p>Granted, that's not the way most affairs end. In most affairs after the passion peaks, the spouse and lover simply drift apart, the victimized spouse usually never finds out about it and the lover is often still in the picture, occasionally getting back together again with the unfaithful
spouse. Some affairs are discovered by the spouse, but even after discovery, the affair often continues unabated until it dies a natural
death. If that's the way your affair ends, even f your marriage survives, it will probably not amount to much."<p>(From the article on How Should An Affair End)<p>And this is the description of Plan A and Plan B: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html in which Dr. Harley says if the affair does not end as it "should" the BS can try Plan A "for a reasonable time." Dr. Harley also says that most affairs end within 6 months of being exposed, if they don't end right away. To me, that does not mean Plan A must last 6 months, but merely that the BS has to do it as long as he or she can stand it. Mark has to decide if he's at that point yet.<p>[ January 25, 2002: Message edited by: Charynne ]</p>

This is from this site, from "What to do with an unfaithful wife letter #5":<p>"The simplest and most direct solution to affairs is to force an end to all contact with the lover for life, and for the spouse to meet the emotional needs that the lover met. Some of my clients have done just that, and spared themselves untold agony. Many leave the state as the only sure way to avoid contact. That plan would also work for alcohol and drug addiction if there were drug and alcohol free states, but there are none. The availability of addicting substances is everywhere, which makes the temptation too great for most addicts to overcome. <p>But what do you do when your spouse won't leave her lover? What if she won't move to another state? I have recommended two approaches to this problem. <p>The first approach that I often recommend is to compete with the lover. Even as she is seeing the man, try to meet her needs, financially and emotionally. That approach has the advantage of proving that you care more about your wife than her lover does. Since you have more to lose than the lover (your family unit and present way of life), you can usually outlast the lover. He eventually finds someone else with less baggage. <p>The problem with this approach is that it is emotionally draining. You are giving her all you can, and getting very little in return. Besides, most people are totally overwhelmed by the image of their spouses in bed with someone else, and feel more like killing their spouses than meeting their needs. Some can't follow this plan at all and most people can't do it indefinitely. <p>As a compromise, I usually recommend a time limit for this approach, say six months. Then, if no progress is seen during that period of time, switch to my second approach. This plan is described in chapter 13 of His Needs, Her Needs ("How to Survive an Affair"), and takes the position that marriage is a contract that assumes mutual need fulfillment. When one spouse has an affair, the contract is broken. I recommend that you not only stop meeting your unfaithful spouse's needs, but you should avoid contact with her entirely until she is willing to abandon her lover. When that happens, you return to my first approach, to pull out all the stops and show her that you are willing and able to meet the needs met by her lover. <p>When you begin with the first approach to the problem, and then switch to the second, it has the advantage of your wife remembering you as a thoughtful, caring person right up to the day that you pulled the plug. It is very important for her to know that you really care about her, but you simply can't take the pain of knowing she's with another man. <p>When you first learned about your wife's affair, you were probably very uncaring and disrespectful. You may have criticized her, made disrespectful judgments, and lost your temper. If you leave her after those ugly scenes, all she will remember is what a jerk you are, and she won't be very tempted to come back to you. So you must leave her with proof that you care for her, and that you also respect her judgments and opinions, however painful they are to you at this time."