I know a lot of you are going to say the BS shouldn't snoop on the WS. Well before someone jumps all over me for what I am about to say let me just state my wife (WS) has just left me hanging in all of this. She has learned to lie to me to tell me what I want to hear instead of telling me the truth (Radical honesty). I am tired of feeling hurt, neglected, abused, used, etc... I feel like a doormat. I am nice to her and I ask myself why?
I came across this by accident. My wife had a short day at work yesterday and one of her girlfriends called her at home. Well my wife let the answering machine answer the call. When my wife heard it was her friend she picked up another phone not the phone on the answering machine. We have an older machine that isn't smart enough to tell if the phone was picked up anywhere so it can stop recording. The answering machine recorded the entire 25 minute plus conversation. My wife pressed the play button on the answering machine so it would say there wasn't a new message and she rewound the tape. Well she left for counseling last night and I was checking the tape for an old phone number. So I manually pressed play on the tape. We didn't get any new phone calls so her message wasn't recorded over. I got to hear the entire phone conversation. I know a lot of you are thinking I shouldn't of listened but I wanted to hear what she was really saying to her friends about our marriage.
My wife was really down yesterday. Her girl friend asked how it was going and my wife (WS) said not too good. My wife told her friend that she told herself that she wasn't going to think about other man anymore. However she said she does think about him often. She stated she knows it is over with him and hasn't talked to him since 11/11/01 but she still has feelings for him. She said she fell hard for him. My wife's girlfriend asked what it was about him that she fell so hard. My wife said it was how he treated me when we were alone and how spontaneous the guy was. My wife went on to tell her friend that there are so many other guys out there in the world that she would like to date around for awhile. Her dumb a@@ friend said can't you just tell your husband you want to date around for awhile. My wife did tell her friend how is that possible that she is married after all. My wife went on saying that she can see herself being married to some other guy some day and it wasn't me. She did acknowledge to her friend that I am trying hard in all of this and that I am willing to do anything for the marriage. From this comment I am thinking my wife has it too easy from me. That she feels she can do anything and I will be there waiting like a puppy dog. My wife's friend asked if there was any physical contact between her and I. My wife said there is no physical anything between us and that my wife doesn't feel any intimacy towards me. My wife said she would like to be held but not by me. What I can't figure out is that my wife even said to her friend that she nevers see's herself being with another guy like this other man she had. That it wouldn't work out in a relationship or a marriage. The other guy was too unstable for my wife. She did say that she is almost 27 years old and that a lot of these ideas about dating around and seeing other men really wouldn't work out too well. She went on to say that I am stable and a good guy. I am wondering now if she is just going to settle with me because I am a stable and good guy. I want her to be with me because she is in love with me and not just to settle with me because of her age, etc...
Bottom line the conversation wasn't a good one to hear for me. My wife said a lot of things in her conversation that did hurt me. Bottom line is my wife is telling me one thing and making me think she is trying on the marriage. When in reality she is at the opposite end from wanting to try in the marriage.
How do I handle what she said? This is how she is feeling so it must be true on what she said? I told myself not to make an LB withdraws when she got home. The only question I did ask her is if she had any feelings towards the other guy. I told her to be open and honest even if it wasn't something I didn't want to hear (radical honesty). She looked at me and said no that the other guy is so out of the picture and she doesn't think about him. Can you say B.S., she just told her friend 3 hours earlier she did. She told me that she has moved on from him and that I need to do the same. I have moved on but my wife hasn't.
This hurt from what I heard in the conversation. Any advice or help? These things really bothered me on what she said.
- She thinks about the other guy
- The other guy is attractive
- She wants to date other guys
- She see's herself being married to someone else
- She feels no intimacy towards me
- She wants to be single like her single friends
- She wants to be held but not by me
- I made plans for her B-day (2/21) and she laughed about it to her friend<p>Can you say ouchhh....Help....
Also I really don't want to keep being nice to her when she treats me like a pile of crap. Should I stop being nice until she is? The counselor told me on Thursday that I need to stop calling my wife and stop asking her out to do things. That I need to just do things without my wife and let my wife come after me. I don't think my wife will come after me but I am SOOOO TIRED OF BEING A DOOR MAT....<p>HELP.....

Ouch, ouch ouch...<p>Listen, I know this hurts, but try and see it this way. You just got a view into your W's confused, foggy mind that offers valauble info.<p>It's not too surprising that she still thinks of OM after a couple of months. It took my H months to quit feeling drawn to his EA. She is not being honest with you, probably to protect your feelings. Maybe to hedge her bets a bit. Maybe both...in fact, quite likely a bit of both.<p>She knows OM wouldn't work out. She does appreciate that you are a good person and stable. So, you are about where I was several months after DDay. It could be loads worse...she could be blaming you for everything and making up lots of faults for you.<p>As for her "trying" in the marriage...what do you see? Does she appear to be trying? If so, don't discount that effort because she has not yet gotten over OM. <p>I think I would let her know that you herad the tape...apologise for listening <yeah, I would have done the same thing>, and tell her kindly that it is important to you to know how she really feels, even if it hurts sometimes.<p>Good luck--<p>Kathi

CG--<p>Here's my $0.02<p>- She thinks about the other guy: Normal reaction...this will not go away tomorrow or the next day, or the day after that...the key is that she is not with him. It will go away eventually.<p>- The other guy is attractive: So what. She married you didn't she? She must have found you attractive then and those feelings can come back.<p>- She wants to date other guys: Fantasy. <p>- She see's herself being married to someone else: See above<p>- She feels no intimacy towards me: She needs to get past her past...if things work for you two this will come. Slowly.<p>- She wants to be single like her single friends: Fantasy again.

- She wants to be held but not by me: She will, she will.<p>- I made plans for her B-day (2/21) and she laughed about it to her friend: Continue with your plans...make it a memorable one.<p>She is still going thru withdrawal and grieving...maybe not for OM, but for the excitment and fantasy she enjoyed during the A. This can take time...much longer for some than others.<p>Hang in there and try to manage meeting her needs with no expectations of anything in return for now. <p>Try not to snoop. If you do, you have to be willing to be hurt by the consequences.<p>Good luck <p>E

CG,<p>I definitely second Kathi... It hurts, I've been there - but think about it as a valuable piece of "insider knowledge". As for feeling guilty about snooping... don't worry about it... in the end, if a family member was addicted to a drug, would we do everything necessary to help them recovery, even if it meant snooping on them? Of course we would.<p>In terms of the actual message... I think there plenty of hopeful things in there, even though it sounds bleak to you right now.<p>One thing you could do is think about how your WW's views have likely changed over time. In the heat of her A, you probably wouldn't have even gotten the recognition of trying hard and being "good". That's incredibly important and shows you're DOING A GOOD PLAN A!!! Good for you, bud!!! Right on!!<p>Many of her other comments are typical, and possibly represent a cross-section of her withdrawal. Not sure how long her A went on, but I've heard that withdrawal does take longer if the A is longer. So expect more of this from her - confusion, etc. You, unlike many others here, sound like you're in a good spot, though. By getting this candid piece of info, I think you can be pretty comfortable that the A has ended, that your wife acknowledges that OM isn't good for her or marriage material, etc. As such, it might just be a matter of time for you to increase your Plan A efforts.<p>One thing I will mention... your comment about her using you, and you being at her beck and call... You might want to change this dynamic a bit. There's a few other recent threads out there that talk about Weiner-Davis's Last Resort technique. My personal belief (that's starting to solidify as I gain more experience with it) is that a really good Plan A lays a foundation for a period of this (being less available, doing your own thing, no more "I love yous", no more letters or relationship talks AT ALL, etc.), after which you can use Plan B as a last, last, last resort. Just my opinion, though. Think about what might work in your situation, given what you know.

Confused guy,
First of all, don't feel bad about snooping. When a BS has been hurt, and lied to you've got to have some way of knowing where you stand. I hope the significance of your post is noticed by many others here who are struggling. I mean, MB's calls for the POJA, how can you have any kind of agreement with someone who is lying to you? This, I think, is the mistake in the thinking of many who would suggest you "continue to try to meet her EN's". Rhetorical question..."Which EN's might that be? The EN's she tells Confused_Guy about, or the ones she tells to her friend?"<p>You've mentioned in another post that pot smoking, and drinking is a factor in your W's behavior. When a person is doing something wrong, the drug turns off their concience, everything seems OK with the world. As reality seeps in, a false set of beliefs is built up - usually this means that they decide their problems are everyone else's fault. If this sort of pattern is going on, it's no wonder your W has no problem lying right to your face. It also means that the traditional advice will have no affect on her. She's locked into a pattern of thinking and she needs to change that before any of the positive stuff you do can have much impact.<p>I think your feeling that you want to stop being a "doormat" is probably a smart thing. Your W needs to begin to appreciate the consequences of her actions. There's really no way of knowing, I don't think, which way a woman in her position will turn. It's a sad thing, but you need only stick around MB's a while to see that when you have one party trying to save the M and the other faking it that sometimes they come around, and sometimes they don't. <p>You've got to take care of yourself C_G. You will recover - I promise you. As bad as you hurt, believe me, your W is sicker than you are, and you can't make her recover. Stick with your C Sounds like you're getting good advice there. I'd suggest reading "Love Must be Tough", by Dobson. It deals with just your sort of situation. Keep coming around and posting. There are many of us who have survived this. We know how hard it is but you said it yourself - you're a good guy - you'll be OK.
David

I would inform her that you heard the tape and ask her why she continues to lie to you. I would also tell her you have no desire to be a doorprize for her and that you expect her to make a real committment to the marriage and practice honesty in your relationship. If she does not then I would seek a lawyer and inform her of this. I agree that she thinks you will always accept everything no matter what. A person that is perceived as a puppy dog is not particularly attractive. I wish you luck.

Confused,<p>Your situation sounds a lot like mine and pretty typical from what I have seen on the MB site. Don't feel bad about snooping - at one time I thought of putting a recorder on the phone and I did finally uncover the affair using computer spy software. As awful as these tactics are, you just have to know the truth if you want to be able to take any effective action. I know, I stumbled around in the dark for a year and a half, not knowing waht was wrong or how to fix it, suspecting an affair, being led on and lied to. I'd probably still be in that horrible place if I had not begun snooping.

Your wife's conversation with the girlfriend is probably a lot like my wife's with her girlfriend. I don't know when your D Day was, but as the last contact with OM was in November, your wife is still in heavy withdrawal - don't underestimate that withdrawal pain and confusion. I know how you feel, I had a very hard time accepting my wife's very intense emotional attachment to the OM, but that is the reality of it. I saw an E mail, (while I still had the spy program installed) where she talkled about how much she missed him and how she thought about him every day. still, she knew it was a fantasy, and in the same E mail talked about how she never meant to leave me. My wife also talked about the "spontaneous" nature of the OM, how he made her feel good also. Again, pretty typical. Meeting in motel rooms with no other problems to deal with and no responibilities for a few hours Is pretty good deal I guess, but certainly not real. My wife spoke of how it was "escape". Also, like your wife, Mine has no desire to be intimate either, but there are many other signs of progress.<p>Finally, I spent the las year being negative, bitter, angry and resentful, with all the LBing that comes with that. Taht was very counterproductive. Don't make that mistake - I am now working on Plan Aing, and having faith that what people tell me here is true.<p>Hang in <p>Mike