SNL, I wanted to continue some of our discussion from the other post, and have taken the liberty of pasting it here. If you don't want to go anywhere with this, let me know and I will delete it.<p>Here's the other post:
twyla...Maybe this is a completely inappropriate response, but at some point the hurting has to stop.<p>snl...Yes, I think that is true, which is partly why I feel it necessary to review the whole marriage, and not just stop an affair, do MB and live happily ever after, there are very deepseated issues which must be dealt with, otherwise more hurt will come, and I don't want to do this again...get all stirred up and miserable.<p>Well, about 6 months ago I would probably have fought you on the "do MB and live happily...." But, as we have delved more and more into the issues of our relationship in the past 3 months, I do have to agree..partially. However, if I had NOT followed the MB principles, esp identifying and cleaning up the LB's I was guilty of..I don't think either of us could have looked at some of the core problems in our relationship and become anything but enemies...and once his intial scorn of following a "cookbook" for recovery had worn off and he also followed the principals..he agrees. Does the affair need to be stopped for this process? Yeah, I really think it does, if for no other reason but focus. Not to discount all the agony involved in betrayal, but because it IS such a huge focus, it does tend to blind us (BS and WS) from really looking at the core issues. From my end, (BS) knowing he was still in contact the first 2-3 months completely distracted me from the real issue..a relationship in trouble. From his end (WS) the confusion about who he wanted, what he wanted and who he really was totally confused and stymied him. So it's a 2 way street.<p>
tw... And your (snl) last post to Cali really had me worried about you because blackness and negativity seem to have taken up a permanent residence in your thoughts..this worries me.<p>snl...Yikes, I am an optimistic person usually, and bullish on life, guess I am getting worn down trying to resolve this and facing anger at every turn.... be it here, or at home, and the notion that life is over if people do not want to be intimate....I have a hard time coping with relationships either have to be intimate and married, or hate each others guts....why do people have to be married? or their whole life is some big lie, and awful stuff..ya know? I am not sorry we married, and we seem to have 4 good children, and we lived, and got along sorta, I don't want to X her out, we are part of each others lives, and I am ok with that, I just want to stop hurting, and being a source of hurt....and I don't want to change who I am...what I want is to be me. <p>Well the terrible reality of divorce is that many people who once loved each other end up hating each other's guts. Our divorce started as amicable, but soon turned into a battlefield. Sad really...neither of us are bad people...so, that may be a reality for you as well. So that optimistic person will take many lumps..from ex, kids, friends and family. Be prepared. That negativity that I noticed I had after my first marriage...and it reappeared in my current relationship just prior to his A. Sad it took this long for me to finally work on it...again..don't make my mistakes.<p>tw....But one BIG fact that I haven't seen espoused here is that a divorce does NOT make a either person a failure. The only failures are people that don't do the work for personal recovery not matter what the outcome.<p>snl...I agree, and have said so here on occasion, but for the record agree again...this is NOT about blame, it is about healing and growth. I personally have learned alot here, both by way of MB principles, and by the sharing of others lives, there is no way one could have this kind of data available in a self-help book etc.<p>SNL, I was blamed for being selfish during my divorce for "thinking only about myself and my happiness", and with the advent of my kids problems, my "mother guilt" runs overtime. The problem was that I WAS thinking of myself...but did nothing to ensure personal recovery...Figured since we failed at marital recovery, I was who I was, he was who he was, we don't mix (fit? hehehehe) and that's that. <p>
tw...I'm truly sorry that both of you have had what sounds like an unsatisfactory marriage. <p>snl....I would describe it as starved marriage, neiter of us have been nurtured very well, not out of maliciousness though, but we are still both extremely malnourished all the same.<p>tw...Divorce will not solve that...unresolved issues will continue to follow you into any relationship that may be in the future...I've proven that.<p>snl...Divorce only does one thing, it returns the focus of your life to you, and you are responsible (without the distraction, and committment to anothers needs) for your own outcome....it is a space, and often times I think it is a very healing space...if done correctly.<p>Well, having been through a divorce, life after divorce, and now another long term relationship, I have to look at that last phrase and disagree. I think the focus is always primarily on yourself whether married or not. What divorce primarily does is more like removing 2 people from the same orbit. But, with children and other ties, those orbits will often intersect..and there are some huge collisions. This may sound unbelievably trite, but my goal with my divorce was to no longer having deal with someone whom I just didn't like. I didn't have to adjust to someone else's viewpoints or emotions. I could now legally and physically shut him out..I had been doing that emotionally for years. This is the biggest burden I carried into this new relationship...sort of answers the question of why I haven't pushed for marriage, doesn't it?Also gives you a hint of the recovery I didn't do.
It's a work in process. My point is to really examine your personal coping skills (Leilana's favorite phrase) and get a tune up.<p>tw...Divorce is scary..anything you do the first time is..and ultimately is doesn't matter who pursues it..the outcome is the same. However, life does continue afterwards. But, as I've said before, do the personal work to recover not only from the A, but from the marriage.<p>snl..Yep, good advice.
So, what's your plan. Thinking counselling, or are you going to hibernate and let your thoughts stew?
T<p>[ January 27, 2002: Message edited by: Twyla ]</p>

still around a little bit...thanks for considering me a friend, is nice to feel worthwhile that way.<p>I think the MB is important, it was crucial to helping me find my balance....and their stuff re love busting, rules of protection, and poja is absolutely first rate....but it is only a tool, it is not a solution, and it cannot make you be in-love unless you allready fit, and are in-love....but it is the tool of choice if you want to negotiate a contractural marriage (you do me, I will do you)...which statisitically speaking is the most common form of marriage, so it has a lot of application.<p>I know I am a pollyanna, intellectually I can understand the pathology of acrimomious divorce, I just cannot understand it emotionally, I am not built that way, I find it very hard to be angry for more than a few minutes at a time, and am incapable of vindictiveness, or grudges, or any of that, it makes me nauseous. But I also don't seem to view divorce (or marriage for that matter) the same as many...I don't see it as a terrible thing, people make it terrible, nothing changes, you are still the same people, with the same feelings you just don't live together, why is that so awful? Yes, if have underage children, is some potential hardship, but is usually much worse cause of parents than divorce itself....nothing changes, you are still parents, you care about each other, no one dies...you just stop the friction arising out of living together. I have asked this many times, no one has responded with why divorce has to be so terrible (other than trotting out the kid argument, so what if there are no kids, ok to divorce then, makes no difference?).<p>My plan? Don't know, thinker is very volatile at the moment, and she calls the shots, so ask her.... as for me, I will do what I always do when we are in major conflict....keep trying to make as much money as I can for whatever is to come, do what needs to be done with kids and other obligations, and be a stablizing influence...keep calm, be practical, do what I can for thinker, and so forth and so on...and most of all, not return the volleys. As for THE plan, I have some homework for steve, the usual stuff, how do I intend to avoid lovebusters (keep my mouth shut), what is path for saving marriage (haven't a clue, since I am unclear it even should be saved...well actually I want nothing to do with old marriage, so not even sure what this means), and how I intend to meet thinkers top 3 EN's. Ya know, I am opposed mostly to defensive posturing, but I have to point out I do do ALOT of things compared to our lives pre-A, and I have no idea what it is I am supposedly not doing, or am guilty of.....there is a alot of LB'ing in our house, but for some reason we don't talk about that, we just sweep it under the rug as understandable BS angst, whatever that means.... I cannot help it if I am not enthusiastic, and have these issues, and it confuses the hell out of me that I am suppose to be radically honest, yet not say anything controversial.

No problem.<p>You know how it's possible to look at some of the posts here and say to yourself.."hey that's easy, just don't ____________. And then you look at your own case and really have no clue which way you should go, what to think, is this all a mistake? I think it happens to all of us. Emotional detachment and really having nothing at stake makes others problems a piece of cake.<p>So, when I look at you and your wife..the biggest glaring problem is the one you already identified...LB's are a way of life. It's easy to imagine a scorecard up on your refridgerator.
Why are those swept away...why aren't those discussed with Steve or whatever? How can meeting emotional needs even be considered when neither of you considers the other safe?<p>So all the MB tools you listed...POJA, Protection, LB's..all of these are going to be needed no matter which way the marriage goes...just seems to me the focus should be there.<p>The plan...hmmmm I was talking more of your personal recovery plan.
T

twyla...The plan...hmmmm I was talking more of your personal recovery plan.<p>snl...Hmmm, I am suppose to have one of those? Never occured to me, I have spent all (except first 3 years) of my adult life trying to make this work, and fix whatever was hurting my w, I never gave much thought to myself, there was no point, just caused more friction, and anger. Now before anyone (including thinker) jumps on me, that does not mean I was an angel, or went about this perfectly..cause I am not, and I didn't.... but there is no doubt where the emotional focus lay.<p>I guess if I were giving advice to me, it is pretty generic, be the same for thinker, or anyone else in a marriage that ends....even expecting it, even knowing if nothing else it reduces (or should) the um....on-going hurtfulness....I think folks will still experience emotional shock, depression, confusion/disorientation, remorse, fearfulness, as life readjusts to the new reality. I would say don't take on anything new (jobs, spend money, relationships, etc.) just stick with your basic routine, get the stuff done you have to, and go blank, give yourself time, that is the medicine of choice for psychological injury. Be willing to consider some medication if you need it (that's for us diehard will never take pills folks, so far I haven't), be careful driving, or working with anything potentially harmful. Spend time with emotionally supportive family and freinds, and do something physical (like regular exercise, or getting in shape stuff). If you need it, do IC, and maybe keep a journal.....after awhile I think everyone perks up, that is the time to take an inventory of your life, and how you want to live the rest of it, and forumlate plans for that...now is not really the time.

I'm gonna chime in here.<p>Maybe, SnL that is what is missing... YOU.<p>I know I have said this before... changes YOU make in YOU for YOU are the best plan A you can do and can change your marriage and relationship in untold ways....<p>If you keep doing it how you've always done it you will always get the same result and that is INSANITY.<p>And, again, if you haven't made significant changes in YOU for YOU... gone to IC etc., then you HAVEN'T done EVERYTHING you can do to change your marriage cause your focus has been on HER and how to change to change for HER and here's where I agree w/ you...<p>YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HER PART OF THE RELATIONSHIP... <p>only yours.<p>Both of you could do well to quit focusing on what HAS HAPPENED and how each of you HAVE acted and QUIT the insanity... <p>Cali

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>If you keep doing it how you've always done it you will always get the same result <hr></blockquote>
Very true Cali, I'm going to chime in too. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]
SNL, Well, you really put a lot of stuff out there, and though I have had questions, I've pretty much resisted replying to you because it seems you have your mind very firmly made up. You remind me of myself, in a way, before I got into recovery. I was addicted to my own thoughts and feelings. I would have to examine every possible outcome before I would do anything. I had to be absolutely "sure" I had the answer before I would even admit to asking the question. I had long since figured out with certainty, why this "recovery" thing would never work for me. <p>In the closed-mind state you seem to be in, you miss very obvious stuff. Like for instance you say:
I have asked this many times, no one has responded with why divorce has to be so terrible
Did it ever occur to you SNL, that no one here has any interest in that question? This is MarriageBuilders, we're all here because we've chosen to try to save our marriage. Debating the pros and cons of divorce is done on other boards I'm sure, but it's not an issue with those of us who are working on rebuilding. The fact you've not gotten an answer that suits you says more about your near-sightedness, than any superior logic you seem to think you posess. The real question on this board SNL, is not "what's wrong with divorce?", it's "Why are you here anyway?"<p>Elsewhere you say:
....but it is only a tool, it is not a solution, and it cannot make you be in-love unless you allready fit, and are in-love....<p>You ever stop and think that the assumptions you base all your stuff on are faulty? This statement is just wrong. I'll tell you that people can make up their minds to "fit", and build, or regain love for each other. In Alanon, they sometimes read a thing where it says that "Abe Lincoln once said that people are as happy as they make up their minds to be" That philosopy applies here.<p>So SNL, the real issue here I think, is what do you want? Do you want to rebuild your marriage or not? No one here is trying to force you I don't think. I suppose that if your wife is as stubborn as you are you could stay in an unhappy marriage indefinitely. Discussing it on and on and on in a forum that's supposed to be about "recovery" is getting old though in my (not so humble [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ) opinion.
David<p>[ January 27, 2002: Message edited by: Davidb ]</p>

SNL<p>Ever watched a movie that had you thoroughly engrossed? You see the dangers that the hero or heroine on the screen are oblivious to. You can hear the music. ("Wait Until Dark" comes to mind, where I actually screamed out in the theater, because the movie had caught me up that deeply in the movie.)<p>Well, you get a lot of responses here from people who seem to not understand you, by the responses you give trying to EXPLAIN more of your POV. But understand, we see the next scene coming and we're trying to get the message across so that you don't get blown up, or your wife doesn't get blown up...<p>(And you remind me of a customer service rep at work who absolutely has all the answers, and won't listen to me, and then I get yelled at by my superiors for being frustrated with her for not LISTENING to me!) Arrrgggghhhh!<p>Hope you understand all the frantic waving that's going on in the peanut gallery here at MB!<p>Now - I hope I have your attention. Friday night I heard a man say this ever so eloquently, and if I can convey even the gist of what he said, I think you will understand why I want your attention.<p>He said that we are here to overcome a specific set of challenges. The more we resist, the more the challenges seem to be coming at us in bigger targets. First there is the slight breeze. Then there is the gale. Then there is the Mac Truck. each time we turn aside from "getting it", the lesson fights more potently to be learned. Do we really want to put off learning until we get the freight train? <p>In other words, you can leave Thinker. You can exit your marriage emotionally and drive your wife mad in the process. As long as you keep walking away from actual emotional connection to the catastrophe you keep intellectualizing, it's only going to get bigger and worse. And if you leave Thinker - the catastrophe will come in the form of the next relationship you have - bigger and more difficult than the one you are wanting to bail out on. <p>Don't believe me? Think of how easy it seems by comparison now, to have just completely admitted you were wrong and the OW was total sleeze (validating your wife), rather than romanticizing the person as idealic... (consider that the breeze). Your wife's wrath has brewed to a hurricane gale and you still don't see the evil you brought into her life...<p>So here is the skill set. Stephen Covey calls it "Seek to understand, rather than to be understood."<p>Listen.<p>Let yourself BE WRONG! Don't try to explain anything. Don't try to make me, or Thinker, or anyone else UNDERSTAND you. Seek to understand her. Because she hasn't had this need met from you for what may be the entire length of your marriage, it may take a LOT of listening and validating on your part for her to trust you with what really is bothering her. <p>Here's one last thought to leave with you: How far will you go to be right? Study how far you've gone already. <p>Because we're sitting here in the theater, watching the story unfold, we have the advantage of our perspective to see what's coming and somewhat of the price you have already paid to be right. And the price you are going to pay. <p>You have the advantage of not being emotionally caught in a trap that you set her up in - the ultimate pain for her - she is caught, and bleedng to death right now. You may not see the blood, but the viewers in the theater can. And that's why we are so hard on you. You're not bleeding and you are not caught in that trap. But you have the ability to free her from that trap by letting yourself be 100% and completely WRONG - no excuses.<p>See how liberating WRONG can be - to both of you. Try being completely wrong and not having an opinion to defend yourself for a month or two. Heck - try it for ONE DAY!<p>[ January 27, 2002: Message edited by: KaylaAndy ]</p>