Not that I don't think my wife should be angry...obviously nothing is going to just make that happen, but to the extent that it doesn't allow her to forgive is my question. We're going on 8 months here and her mood in a word, ANGRY!<p>I just had major knee surgery and have been needing her very much to help me. She's been great. But over the weekend, for no apparant reason, she starts going off about what I have done, again asking all the same questions, why? Why? Why? Questions that I have answered over and over...I even asked her what I had done to set her off and she said nothing, she's just mad. She doesn't play fair either, bringing up OW often, i.e., "if you don't like the way I'm helping, why don't call her and see if she does a better job.".<p> I am forced to just sit and weather it out. I cried a little, but didn't break down. I finally just told her that I hope whatever she's trying to accomplish by saying all this stuff is working for her. I hope it makes you feel better to keep going there. Saying that its the past and we have to focus on the future is an effort in futility. She says everything in the past decides where we're going now and that is nowhere! <p> I'm not sure how to read this anger, because its clearly causing bitterness and more resentment and she just hangs on to it. Funny sidenote, but at church the next morning the minister preached on getting over your offenses. Fitting! <p> How do we go forward together, when she's unwilling to get past all this stuff? Is this still part of the process...and does it say anything that she is still at home when she's promising to leave and says she has no intention of staying....<p>ANYONE???

If she wasn't willing to "get over it" she wouldn't be there and she sure as hell wouldn't be talking about it. This is her way of "getting over it." <p>And in a few months when she is ALL TALKED OUT and is over feeling LIKE A CHUMP for staying with a betrayer, she may actually "GET OVER IT." <p>Don't fight with her. Don't be defensive. Don't try to make her feel guilty for feeling a bitterness and anger that YOU CAUSED. That will only make it 10X worse. <p>Answer her questions honestly and openly and ASSURE her daily that you DO LOVE her and are most grateful that she stayed with you. That will help her get over her bitterness much quicker. <p>Usually, the 8 month period is a big wall and once she gets over it, it will just get better and better for you every week. <p>Just remember when you think YOU can't take it anymore, just remember what SHE has gone through!

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by MissingHer:
<strong>Not that I don't think my wife should be angry...obviously nothing is going to just make that happen, but to the extent that it doesn't allow her to forgive is my question. We're going on 8 months here and her mood in a word, ANGRY!<p>But over the weekend, for no apparant reason, she starts going off about what I have done, again asking all the same questions, why? Why? Why? Questions that I have answered over and over...I even asked her what I had done to set her off and she said nothing, she's just mad. She doesn't play fair either, bringing up OW often, i.e., "if you don't like the way I'm helping, why don't call her and see if she does a better job.".<p>ANYONE???</strong><hr></blockquote>

Ugh. That's hard and I feel for you, and I feel for your W too. Is she familiar with MB or similar principles? Is she reading any literature about affairs? You sound remorseful. I can tell you that so often that first year I felt like throwing it in my H's face so many times. But he was remorseful and trying to make it up to me the best he could. I had read enough to know that continuing to bring it up would only be counterproductive and push him away. This was my line of thinking - If I had made a mistake, was truly sorry and doing everything in my power to make up for it, how would I feel it the person I had wronged kept using it against me. Your W has every right to be angry, but rehashing things over and over won't help to rebuild. Then again, rebuilding may not be her goal. No one is obligated to put up with infidelity. It's hard to say what will happen. If you want to keep the marriage you should just keep Plan Aing her as long as you can, & be supportive.

hi Missing ~<p>I'm a BS at the 8 month mark in recovery. I too am finding loads of anger surfacing. My husband is also doing alot of work at rebuilding, and is surprising me on a daily basis with changes that I never imagined would happen.<p>His changes (for the better!) are very scary to me. Why? I don't trust him yet. I am very afraid of letting go of my anger (which is my protection). I am afraid that if I drop my defenses and let him love me, that I'll be hurt again. <p>For some reason I am having alot of thoughts about his OW. He was at one time very much in love with her. She's everything that I am not, and I find myself very skeptical that he could love me - when someone like her is what he really wanted.<p>What do I need? I need to hear from him on a daily basis what he loves about me and why. I need to know exactly what his thoughts are. If I am doing something for him that is better than what the OW did...I need to know. I am scared to ask him that exact question actually, because I am scared to death that I'll find out that she was better than me at the things he needs. (Back in the fog days, I was told repeatedly that she was far better in bed, she was "all that" and that she was "magnificant").<p>I need to hear that I am valued by him for ME. That he doesn't want to me to be like her...but that he loves ME as I am. I would like to know also that he prefers me to her...but that's another question that I am afraid to ask. I am scared that the answer will be that he would rather be with her.<p>So often, my extreme vulnerablity and insecurity and my fear turns into outward displays of anger. Its my defense.<p>So I guess my best advice is to be patient....and give her reassurance on a constant daily basis. Be as open and honest as you possibly can be regarding your emotions and thoughts about the affair and about her. Don't leave her guessing about anything - because what you don't say gets left to her imagination.

Thank you so much for the advice/information...<p>Fairydust....yes she is familiar with MB, but unfortunately doesn't really believe in it. She thinks some of the principles apply, but the rest she thinks is a load of doo doo and believes that we are mostly guppies here who are sad and hanging on to something that is out of our control. Ironically, she's the one who turned me on to this place and its been a huge part of my recovery.<p>Bramblerose....You seem to have a lock on my wife. Interesting that lately she has been bringing up OW alot! Seems every little thing she brings her up. I try to reassure her as much as I can, but sometimes it seems its the last thing she wants to hear from me. For everything I say, she has this sometimes vicious response that cuts so deep. These wounds never seem to have time to heal for me. My plan A is constant though, she doesn't like it, but can't get around it either. Sometimes she even makes things up to be angry about, or will conjure up scenerio's and then blame me for things. Example...she's been helping me with my knee surgery thing, I've been telling her all along how helpful and thanking her every little bit and she will say that I am unappreciative, that I don't give her any credit for what she's done...That's totally untrue, but somehow she REALLY BELIEVES THAT, or maybe more, she's convinced herself of that. Should we be farther along here at 8 months, because she isn't meeting any of my EN's, except having an attractive wife, she is very, but I really can't get close. Are you in that same position? Do you keep your husband constantly at arms length or farther? These questions are for anyone, not just BR...

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by MissingHer:
<strong>Not that I don't think my wife should be angry...obviously nothing is going to just make that happen, but to the extent that it doesn't allow her to forgive is my question.<p>C: Forgiveness follows repentance, so my guess is that it is not her anger that is impeding forgiveness. It may even be a disrespectful judgment that she is not forgiving. Forgiving does not mean forgetting. You may want to examine what may be giving her the impression that you are not repentant. That is what triggers my anger.<p>MH: for no apparant reason, she starts going off about what I have done, again asking all the same questions, why? Why? Why? Questions that I have answered over and over...I even asked her what I had done to set her off and she said nothing, she's just mad. She doesn't play fair either, bringing up OW often, i.e., "if you don't like the way I'm helping, why don't call her and see if she does a better job.".<p>C: Having been through my H's knee surgeries, I know the postop care is a full-time job, so a lot of this could be just plain physical and emotional stress and time pressure. It also could be that she is still not satisfied with your answers. And why do you judge that bringing up OW is unfair? I hope you didn't assert that it was unfair to your W because my automatic thought is YOU created the OW and imposed her on your W's life, so you have no right to complain about that presence when it becomes unpleasant to YOU. It has NEVER been pleasant to your W.<p>MH: I finally just told her that I hope whatever she's trying to accomplish by saying all this stuff is working for her. I hope it makes you feel better to keep going there<p>C: This sounds like a disrespectful taunt to me. What she's trying to accomplish is regaining control of her life and everything that was robbed from her. I doubt that she relishes or enjoys even thinking about any of this, but why should she suffer in silence? YOU are the only one who can help her with her pain. You are hearing her PAIN.<p>MH: I'm not sure how to read this anger, because its clearly causing bitterness and more resentment and she just hangs on to it<p>C: Another disrespectful judgment. My guess is if she could just get rid of it, she would. If there is bitterness and resentment, it is your adultery that caused it. Take responsibility for that. Keep asking her what you can do to help her. Maybe she doesn't know right now, but keep that door open.<p>MH: How do we go forward together, when she's unwilling to get past all this stuff? </strong><hr></blockquote><p>C: Once again, disrespectful judgment. You do not know that she is unwilling to get past all this stuff. She didn't want "all this stuff" to happen in the first place, and you gave her no choice.<p>It would probably be more helpful to examine yourself rather than her. Bramble Rose seems to have the best handle on what you can do to be most helpful at this stage, but I can tell you from where I'm standing, as long as I get even a whiff of lack of remorse, empathy or responsibility (and any effort to try to put it in the past before I've thoroughly processed it is all of the above), I won't be letting go, I won't be forgiving, and I won't be committing to the R. I'd be a fool to.<p>Remember how much fresher this is to her than to you. You may think it's in YOUR past, but it is very much in her present and future.

Very true about the anger...<p>People hold onto their anger because they're afraid of being vulnerable. Why would your wife still be afraid of being vulnerable? Is she needing something that she's not getting from you? Ask her and try to give it if it's this.<p>If you're doing all you can and she's still holding onto her anger...it's something wrong with her that she has to work through...and she has to be willing to do it. Neither of you deserve to live with anger...it takes two to make this whole recovery thing work.<p>Don't rush her into healing...but I would also recommend putting up with her negativity and inability to express emotional issues in an adult manner only up to the point that it begins to be detrimental to your own self esteem. Let her vent and rant if it's constructive (i.e. if it is meant to work towards SOLVING A PROBLEM besides her own insecurities)...but if it isn't, personally I'd tell her to come back and talk to me when she was able to address whatever was wrong in a grown-up and civilized manner. She has a right to her feelings, but no right to walk all over you, regardless of what you've done.<p>I can hear it now..."but he walked all over her by having the affair", blah blah blah...the question becomes...are we trying to continue this kind of selfish behavior by perpetuating more of the same emotional selfishness (i.e. "poor me" for all eternity), or are we trying to END these destructive patterns?<p>[ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: TowardsTheFuture ]</p>

While I would not recommend LB-type behavior on anyone's part, I do think it is reasonable to give your spouse the same latitude you allowed yourself as far as acting out is concerned.<p>BSs usually are not given the option of setting the timetable for the A, so WSs shouldn't presume to set the timetable for the BS's "getting over it".<p>It might be helpful to look at it this way: Suppose the BS was raped. What behaviors, reactions and attitudes would we expect and be willing to tolerate if someone else was the perpetrator of our spouse's pain? Maybe that perspective will enhance patience and tolerance levels.<p>While the ideal is no LBing, most of us just are not superhuman enough to unerringly avoid LBs in the face of such a massive LB as adultery. But it is certainly reasonable to request that the issue be addressed within the safety of the boundaries Harley recommends, i.e. no disrespectful judgments, angry outbursts, etc. I would recommend using that language and terminology rather than terms like grown-up and civilized, which have a greater potential for being interpreted as disrespectful and judgmental.<p>At the same time, though, it is definitely a good idea to stress and demonstrate your willingness to patiently and even exhaustively address all issues within those safe boundaries.

Good points and I thank you both...<p>Let me first say, that I have done more than try and not LB. I have avoided disrespectful judgements and anger, yes sometimes that becomes very difficult and I slip up and say something that is sarcastic, she immediately draws my attention to that. Somehow though, my lack of anger, my lack of getting furious with her and yelling or lashing out...the way I speak to her and express myself quietly, she tells me I am being self-righteous...that I am trying to take the high road and trying to make her look bad. It is doing exactly the opposite of what Plan A'ing should do. Mind you she only says these things when she is in a fit of anger or really upset. I just don't really know how to interpret some of her emotions.<p>C: I know she has every right to mentally probe and understand completely the events that have wrecked our lives. I don't have a problem with that, but when she is unwilling to stay within a perimeter of fairnness, and also apply some of the rules to the way she treats me, its hard to understand her. Even Dr. Harley suggests not bringing up OP, why? Because they are triggers, for both. Believe me, I don't bring up her OM! It would be easy, because she is the one who sounds self-righteous talking all about what I have done with a huge finger, pointing right back at her. I won't do that, NOWAY. You mentioned me saying that I hope what she is doing is working for her being a disrespectful taunt...There has to come a point where I will not just lay there and let her destroy me at her leisure. I am quick witted and words come easy to me, so I feel like saying this, through tears mind you, is the only defense I have at my disposal. I cannot defend what I have done to her. I cannot disregard the way she feels, but when she is attacking me continuously, jumping into the same dark place with no warning and then going off on me, what can I do? I listen, listen, listen and listen then listen some more, but the personal attacks, they don't help either of us. They don't further our recovery and honestly, they continue to deplete the love I am trying to build for her. <p>At this point, it seems, that as hard as I am working on my recovery and the recovery of this marriage, she is working in the opposite direction. Angry outbursts are frequent, disrespectful judgements, daily! Physical contact is non-existent, I can't tell you the two occasions that she's initiated a hug in the 8 months since her d-day. <p> I guess, the idea of her forgiving me and releasing much of this anger is more of a spiritual journey. I don't know that I can do anything but listen here...which I want to do. These feelings and hurts and frustrations all start to just run together and sometimes it seems hopeless. <p> Thank you all for letting me vent here...its such therapy!!! Through all of this, I know there is so much more work I have to do here on me. I am trying so hard and want to change so badly that sometimes I feel like an eager puppy, wanting so much to experience this new life and world that has opened up and can open up if she will join me in this journey. Whether she does or not is up to her, but I will continue this way for the rest of my days.

ACK!!<p>:: Conqueror is right...two LB's do not a non-LB make.<p>Hey!! I always I thought i had to go back and forth between pages. Can you believe I went all this time without realizing that answering a post will bring up that "topic review" section at the bottom of the page! Heh...don't answer that...

MissingHer,<p>Have you read Dr. Harley's Q&A column called Coping with Infidelity, Part 4: Overcoming Resentment?<p>In there, he describes how to handle excessive anger in a spouse using the A as a verbal bludgeoning and control device. You may find some helpful strategy there.<p>And I have to apologize because I neglected to familiarize myself well enough with your story, so I was not aware of your wife's status as a WS as well. If I was in that position, I would be well aware of my "pot calling the kettle black" status.<p>In my previous responses, I was identifying with her as a BS, and in a case like that, you are dealing with one perpetrator and one victim, so I think the dynamics are different. In your case, you both equally share the roles of perpetrator and victim on this issue, so what I was saying before is pretty much irrelevant (except for the part that each should strive for no LBs, which applies to ANY situation. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] )<p>So, please pardon my presumptuousness. If my kids were aware of my faux pas, they'd be saying, "Ha! You feel stupid!" [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Check out Dr. Harley's advice in that column.

No Worries C!
I had a feeling maybe you hadn't read any of the other posts or didn't know my story, but what you had to say was still good. So thank you anyway! I have read Dr. Harley's stuff about resentment, but its been a long time. If I remember correctly though, much of that was with the understanding that both parties were willing to work on the marriage. My wife says she is not, says she can't. She doesn't have the feelings for me that she once did and that means she refuses to go back into a marriage where she has no feelings! FEELINGS FEELINGS FEELINGS....everything is based on feelings, not what is the right thing to do here, but that's a whole different post! <p>Thank you for clearing up the faux paux! But its no biggy really.