This is buried in another post... I was hesitant to post about it at all... getting a little gun shy since most seem of the mind I should be going to plan B...<p>My H called me on the way to a weekend conference. H started with "Just listen, okay." My awareness heightened immediately... knew that it was important... H continued...<p>"I promise to never call that trifling b*t*h again, if you don't call her." I said, "excuse me?" and he repeated (including the tb part)... I told him that I really didn't want him NOT calling her hinging on a promise that I wouldn't call her... I just wanted him to stop calling her and seeing her because he wanted to work on the marriage... He said, "I'm not there yet... one piece at a time." I asked what brought this on and he said he'd called her to tell her something... and she apparently went 'off' on him... about how she didn't want ME in HER life (yeah, like I'm thrilled about her presence in mine [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] ...) and how he couldn't control me... and I guess he must have defended me in some way... which really sets her off because she wants him to hate me and demonize me and my H just isn't like that... we really are good friends...<p>anyway, I got off the phone and thanked God for one more miracle...<p>...but now after a couple of days... I'm wondering... <p>Here he goes again... making a promise that hinges on ME... just like he says happened when we got married... married me because I said we'd make a good team... etc. etc. <p>Why can't he just NOT call her because he's seeing her for who she is... why'd he have to drag me into it? <p>anyway... he has been more receptive to my overtures of affection... when I hugged him upon his return from the weekend he actually held me tight... it felt sooooo good to feel him squeeze me... he also snuggled tightly last night as we slept...<p>Now I suppose I have real withdrawal to look forward to... as before this he has always been able to 'call' her whenever... there really wasn't any need for withdrawals... guess I'll go look up the signs and symptoms...<p>Cali<p>[ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: Cali ]</p>

Cali---<p>What struck me more about your post yesterday when I read it was the following:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Cali:
<strong>He said, "I'm not there yet... one piece at a time."</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Now as I recall...he hasn't much been in a place before where he was willing to acknowledge he was anywhere...let alone "not there yet"<p>I will take the other tack here and definitely not recommend plan B. To me Plan B is a last resort...I don't think you are there yet...This really has to be something you can live with and look back on with no second thoughts...I don't think you want to do this and I can understand...<p>He says "one piece at a time" <p>Take that for what it's worth...forget about him asking you not to call OW (it sounds like you didn't plan to anyway) don't make a big deal out of it. Continue with what you are doing...<p>If any of this works it works in baby steps...he has just taken one...accept it for what it is and keep on keepin' on [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Good luck and hang tough....<p>You are still the queen of plan A [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>E

Thank you Elad.<p>I have the same take on Plan B. Plan B is when you're done. It's not a strategy. If you're thinking it's a "strategy" that will make WS see reality, don't do it. That's my major objection to most people's reasoning on Plan B. <p>It's not even a pain reliever. Everyone has their own limit to their own pain. You've reached your limit when the pain has forced you to move on. We often see someone else in pain and project how we would feel. I think a lot of early Plan B'ers really would be done in a similar situation and that's where their advice comes from. Cali, I'm glad you don't react to relieve "our" pain. You seem to be able to handle more pain than the rest of us- perhaps due to your background... good? bad? ...that's the way you are.<p>I also don't think you tell all the daily things that go on. We aren't getting the full story on your emotional health. I also have the tendency to fixate on "all" the bad stuff of the past few months after an incident, ignoring how happy I'd been feeling just days before. I think this is how all of us (WS and BS alike) "revisit" history - a comment I made to Lexxxy yesterday.<p>I have been paying attention to this, but haven't been able to get my thoughts together enough to comment.<p>Things really do sound different. Perhaps you can just ignore these strange requests and not respond at all. Orchid's technique of "echoing" comes to mind... if you can do it without laughing. I'm sure your particular response won't make any difference in the long run- he will always choose to remember whatever version he wants anyway. <p>Jeffers

I say keep in plan a, I am having mixed results and problems as well, as it should be expected right... this is no instant fix... and some improvement is great... give him time... my H likes plan a , and I think would not like plan b... plan b is only when they keep affair in your face, and you have tried to love them in plan a for a long time, and they know how hard you tried, and you cant do it anymore.... or you will stop loving them.. you are not there.<p>Thnk carefully before jumping on the advice of anyone here on this board... there are lots of great opinio s... but some that I have jumped on , lead me to remorse... even for following well thought out advise-<p>YOu know your H, I know my H... we know HOW they are... and what will work with THEM... and we know the LOVE we once shared... so do what you think is right... only you know... and I did see all that b advice to you... and I wasnt too sure...<p>I know it is hard, but pray be strong, and plan a in the face of no quick results.... keep being your wonderful self, and he will see how much you love him... the ow is no comparison... I KNOW this is true in both of our cases.<p>Hugs, take care of you today. Plan a you, and him.<p>HONEY

Cali,
What about looking at it like this...
Your husband has a known track record for not taking responsibility for actions/decisions by always leaving himself an "out"...that little extra phrase or excuse..like "I married" you then in a tiny sqeaky voice you hear, "because you said blah blahh blah.."<p>He can't do many decisions without that "out of blame piece"..even when that is exactly what he wants to do...character flaw?...yep....something to drive you crazy?...yep...but also extremely typical of him...<p>What I am saying that since this is something your husband has done all along...or even done in his mind...it is something he will probably continue to do right now...You have been thrust into the most stressful painful event of your life...and it is common to throw every move, thought, and sentence into the huge simmering pot of "the affair"...I would say don't put much weight on this type of decision making process of his...don't take the blame, but don't forget it's how he works..may even be some pre-affair alien speak...that all of engage in...<p>He approached you somewhat defensively starting out with "Just listen OK"..followed by some great revelation decision he has come to. Was Macho Macho Man by the village people playing in the background.? [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ...and you kind of LB him instead of praising his decision...please please Cali I don't mean this defensively..<p>Each time he makes a decision even when it includes that extra zinger of linking it to anyone but himself..plan A it...warm fuzzies for making some type of decision but also say somethin like.."honey I never have any intention of calling the other woman...that's proposterous..but more importantly I am sooo proud of you deciding for yourself that you will not call her..."<p>I beleive that as your marriage heals you deserve the type of husband who can make a good decision (or even a bad one as we all do)..on his own..without his little "out"..but I also believe that it is an issue to be ironed out later down the road...<p>You two have the chance at recommiting and re-living and stating how much each of you value one another...and when people feel valued and worthy ( and he may not feel worthy as he hurt you deeply) they are better able to make decisions...<p>I hope this makes sense...in some respects it's don't sweat the small stuff..the bigger picture is he has stated he will not contact her..and is being warm with you...
GO CALI GO CALI GO CALI GO CALI [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>peace to you and your home
ARK

Cali,<p> I think you have already decided to continue Plan A. Which I agree with at this time. However, I would point out that you need to continue with your 180's. This seems to be what has gotten you better results.<p> jd

Thanks all.<p>Elad... that is what echoed to me after he hung up... one piece at a time . It's like he knew he had to end contact... <p>Jeffers... I'd been wondering if you were lurking about... was missing your kind words and wisdom... I too have been wondering if my ability to do such a long plan A is just my old habit of stuffing all of my feelings away and pretending I don't feel them... something to work on with IC...<p>Honey... I feel, like jeffers stated, that we so much want our 'friends' here to not feel pain that plan b is sometimes recommended. Just like plan A is not for everyone... I don't think plan B is either... my recommendation is for people to call MB counseling regarding what plan they are in... but I also want to be able to share here and bounce my thoughts off of everyone... it's a cunundrum... I don't want my friends here to think that I don't value their opinion... <p>ark^^... interesting that you should say what you said... I was thinking it during the phone call... and wish now I'd have said it... "I don't have any intention of calling her and I'm glad you made this decision." Cause I don't... the only time I've called her is a knee-jerk reaction to his calling her... dumb and counterproductive...<p>Now here's the thing... I was really 'done' last week... researching divorce stuff on the Internet (at school... so he had no idea)... I was considering a timeline... the end of school... our lease expires... etc... figured you all were right and I had to go to plan b... <p>Does he have a sixth sense or something? When I reached this point in our relationship before our engagement and decided that we'd probably need to separate... that he didn't really want to be with me, he surprised me by wanting to get married... and I kept my 'separation' plans to myself... and didn't question his decision...<p>Should I reveal to him where my heart was last week... sometime? not necessarily now? ever?<p>Cause sometimes I really do wonder if he needs to be apart from 'us,' from 'me' to see if we are really what he wants...<p>Cali

Cali...<p>I don't know what to think of this thread. I know what it feels like to put your trust in someone who only lets you down again and again...<p>Why are you still there with him? The title of this post alone is painful to read...he's doomed to failure before he even gets a chance to try. Nothing that he could do in the future would ever be good enough to overcome what he's messed up in the past. Why should he even bother? Because it's the right thing to do? Why should that be a motivator when no one expects anything but wrong out of you? <p>Why does it bother you so much that your happiness is the driving force behind his desire to change?

TTF:<p>hmmm...<p>My H's decision NOT to call OW is predicated on the fact that I NOT CALL OW... (like I call her everyday or PLAN to call her....) <p>so in essence did he make the decision? or did I force him to? <p>maybe I'm trying to figure this whole thing out... the dynamics of him and me... <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Nothing that he could do in the future would ever be good enough to overcome what he's messed up in the past. Why should he even bother? Because it's the right thing to do? Why should that be a motivator when no one expects anything but wrong out of you? <hr></blockquote><p>Actually, my H believes I expect too much of him. Resists the fact that I totally believe that his 'upbringing' will out... that I know he can't stay away from God too much longer... He believes he's been doing the 'right' thing for so long that it has made him powerless, weak and not in control of his life.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Why does it bother you so much that your happiness is the driving force behind his desire to change?
<hr></blockquote><p>I'm not sure that my happiness was the driving force behind his decision. I'm not sure WHY he mad the decision and he won't talk to me about it... I am left to read between the lines... until we're at a place where I CAN talk to him about it...

Cali --
He made the decision in the heat of the moment because he was angry at OW.<p>So you are right to consider the source of this "promise". Its very possible that it was said in anger, and that he may change his resolve either through calming down or her apologizing or some other way of reaching out to him.<p>Its not the "come to jesus" that you're waiting for. <p>So make a decision -- do you want him to choose YOU? Or choose NOT HER?

Lexxx... <p>so I need to throw the bum out or, leave him and force him to choose?<p>Are those my only options?

H just called me...because I have no one else to call and I didn't want to forget to tell someone this (his exact words)... he went on to tell me about a kid that just entered into his class... it was a student he'd had about 5 years ago in a 5th grade class...<p>ANYWAY>>>><p>My mind spun out of control after the phone call and I started thinking about this thread, TTF's comments about WHY he made the decision, Lexxxy's reply and the phone conversation last Friday... and it occurred to me...<p>He said she was ranting about NOT wanting ME in HER life... ya suppose she was trying to force HIM to choose HER? It just struck me...<p>[ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: Cali ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Cali:
<strong>so in essence did he make the decision? or did I force him to?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>You just answered this in your last post...you caused the OW to LB your H. So the OW (and you, to a certain extent) forced him to.<p>Your H wants to avoid his own pain at all costs, right? So of course he's going to ask you play nice and not cause his girlfriend to disturb the peace. Sorry for the anger in this...
But this is his motivation. What's in boldtype.<p>That's why getting the OW to LB on her own motivation is best. The better you Plan A, the more she'll LB on her own out of insecurity and jealousy. The more she will lose attractiveness in your H's eyes. The A will die it's natural death. <p>He HAS to choose "not her" before he can every truly "choose you". The WS will choose what is best for himself, first and foremost.<p>But back to your latest query...yes, of course she is forcing him to choose her over you. She painted you the bad guy in order to try and do that.<p>My question to you Cali is this: You are not allowed to contact the OW (which I totally agree with--it ruins your Plan A). And he is not going to contact the OW unless you do. So how does one police or enforce this without either of you contacting with the OW?<p>The agreement is kitty litter. He made no real promises or sacrifices with this "pact" of his.<p>The real issue is can you set some bounderies with him to protect YOU from further hurt from him while you continue to Plan A and not LB? <p>Remember Lostva, Cali? Whenever I wondered where I was or where my H was at in this mess, I always thought about Lostva and her H...what she did, the steps she took. Her extreme Plan A.<p>Thanks for the invite, Cali. I'm honored.

My answer to Lexxxy's question is: first he has to choose NOT HER, before he can consider choosing YOU. A true marriage can happen after he chooses you.<p>"I see much fear in you."<p>Your H said long ago that he didn't want to be married, didn't love you, yet demanded to stay and have a "fake" marriage for the kids. (fake is my word)<p>Your fear was that he would stay, you would get comfortable, think that things were changing and... 15 years later he would fulfill his promise and leave. Or, you would never get comfortable with this thought in the back of your mind, always waiting for the other shoe to drop.<p>I think that's why you're so compelled to keep asking those questions. You want to know if he's chosen you yet.<p>The problem is, how do you know the answer he's giving you is the truth? A lot of prideful stuff mixed into this, it'd probably be very difficult for him to give a different answer right now.<p>Old advice is to quit asking the questions, but I don't think you're able to. This is probably your built in Plan B timer. His answers will slowly move you there, unless his other actions reassure you enough that you don't feel the need to ask anymore (or as often).<p>----
OW is going to push, and pull. As Lexxxy said, she'll try another tactic if this one doesn't work. Yeah, it does sound like a power play. Your H has to deal with this on his own. Maybe he'll be able to escape her this time.
---<p>Jeffers<p>[ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: jeffers ]</p>

Cali,<p>I hope you can handle another comment-- I'm in a reflective mood today.<p>HbH mentioned in an earlier post that she had noticed changes in you lately that were disturbing. I finally understand what I have been noticing as well.<p>Last summer you would respond to contact and waffling with anger. Pure and spontaneous- you'd then come here to vent about it. Lately there's been less anger, but a touch of cynicism has crept into your posts. The same'ol, same'ol of your H's mistakes has started coloring your feelings about the good things he's been doing as well. Ya know, like, are these changes for real? The title of this thread is also an example.<p>Normally, a little cynicism is a sign of wisdom (and caution). Perhaps that's what it is, since it only appears in some posts centered on your H and does not appear in your posts to others. <p>I've started to notice that some of those who have reached the end (separating, divorcing, etc.) are very cynical. It shows up in all their posts - even to others. They've lost their ability to trust, or maybe not the ability - just the desire. <p>Maybe the amount of cynicism is a measure of "doneness"? I wonder if this is what HbH was seeing? Of course, it's possible that my own state of mind is clouding my observations.<p>I'm not sure what you can do with this. Maybe just look in the mirror and see if you notice anything? <p>Jeffers

Jeffers...<p>Interesting, don't you think, Lexxxy's and TTF's take on my title and my question?<p>See my H is passive/aggressive. And he avoids conflict like all get out... HE WILL PUT OTHERS FIRST and in doing so HE HAS BECOME VERY UNHAPPY.<p>Chicken or the Egg question... Did I FORCE decisions on him or did he 'agree' and NOT LET ME KNOW? HOW IS IT MY FAULT????<p>See I read Resilient's post on how her conversation re OC came back to haunt her... and I can see how this promise would come back to haunt me... so you're right, I don't trust it... but do I act like I do? Do I talk about it?<p>I can tell you what I am done with, though. I am done relating to my H the way I always have... <p>Cali

Cali,<p>Me and my 2 cents again..... the comment about the OW LBing.... good. Now use this to your advantage. Unfortunately what you will need to do is nothing but be sweet, smile and shine. All genuine of course. The OW will continue to LB and being the run away conflict avoider he is he will com'a runnin' to you. <p>Now the question will be how do you handle his return to your arms? Don't give in too easy. The 180 degree turn still applies. Don't be too available to take him back soo quickly and for just a few changes. <p>During this time (remember I am the one that took H back to early too many times), when I finally figured out how to do it (that worked best for me), I learned to not show as much interest or enthusiasm, make H work to earn back my trust. I met some needs but it was more on an equalizing basis. Yes, I still do a lot more. See H thinks that my housekeeping, paying bills, taking care of the family is meeting his en. It is but not mine. So while he gets some general benefit, the one between us was suffering. I had to adjust that so my ENs were what he thought about. <p>This is hard since I am married to a very stubborn man. I am working on it. Those walls are comin' a tumbling down, one stone at a time. Whew!!! Hard work. He is now learning to help. Himself, our child and me. It is a start. Almost like being in therapy. <p>Use this time wisely Cali, it is important to your outcome. <p>Take Care,
L.

It's alot to digest, but you seem to have gotten a good variety of answers.<p>I wish I could Plan A effectively as long as you have. I think it's admirable and your H is a lucky guy.<p>My 2 cents is I belive Plan B is when you are done with the relationship - I agree it's not a strategy. It only applies if you think you are going to fall out of love with H is you Plan A any longer.<p>I must be one of those cynicists out there because I haven't even made it 6 months and already I'm filing for divorce. Due mainly in part to personality traits in H that proceeded the affair. <p>Reflect on the advice, pray, sleep on it and then do what you feel comfortable doing. If you feel at peace with your decision then it's usually the right one. The people around you are always going to want you to not be in pain, and often suggest a course of action to relieve their pain instead of yours. However, also look at the course of events, see how you're changing, see if H's changing, look at the quality of your life- are you happy with the way things are now? Would you like them different in the future? That's why there is usually a time limit to Plan A, because you can lose love units and you shouldn't waste your life tagging after someone who will never return. Do you have a healthy amount of self respect and self love? Just make sure you're not doing it just because you're too afraid not to. <p>If 180's work, then you may want to follow the advice of Divorcebustig a little more closely and check out their discussion frum to get more ideas on how to do that.<p>Just by reading all of the replies, at least you know you have a whole cheering section for you no matter what you decide. Good luck. K

Hey Jeffers and Cali. I was reading Jeffers post, and thought about it a bit... What I really meant was that I no longer see Cali doing as many things for her (like last summer/fall). What I see now is Cali trying more and more (probably w/o realizing it) to get her H to re-act to her changes.<p>Your changes are for you, not your H. You should never add a sentence that says. "this change I made is finally making my H turn around, he did this and this and this."<p>That is manipulative. You changed not for you, but so you could get your H to react.<p>Detaching for yourself is good. Detaching so your H recognizes what you are doing and reacts to it, is not good.<p>Doing 180 things is good. If that is really the person you want to be and the way you want to live your life because you didn't like the person you were before and/or this is what you need at the present time to get through things. If you are just doing it for a reaction, or to make H suddenly come out of the fog and realize what he is doing. BIG RED FLAG... <p>Yeah, you won. Your WS came back to you. But for how long? Not very once they realize the truth.<p>Yes, you could get lucky. You could convince your WS to go to counseling, follow MBers, they will come out of the fog and they won't care how you got them there. Maybe they will even thank you for doing whatever was necessary to help them realize the error in their ways. <p>I don't know of any examples of this working. Any Old Timers got any. Maybe it does work...<p>I know of quite a few situatinos where the BS finally reached the end of their rope and/or did the things they needed to do to go on (be it a true plan A for THEM, plan B, divorce, seperation, whatever), and eventually their WS followed. But not always.<p>Last summer, the changes Cali made were for HER and her alone. You could tell by the way she posted. I just don't SEE that now (yes, some things, just less and less as time goes on).<p>And you are right, Jeffers, maybe this does have something to do with reaching the end of her rope and it is her way of a "last ditch effort" before throwing in the towel. Cali, what do you think? It's just my observation, I've been wrong before...<p>Maybe I am totally misreading your posts and you will say to me - You are wrong, I AM doing this stuff 100% for me, not for him. That is wonderful, awesome, I couldn't be happier, then maybe this post will benefit someone else who is in that situation. Just say it and appease that little devil on my shoulder.<p>I also just wanted to clarify a bit,Cali, cuz' I know I've been kind of tough on you lately. <p>I don't see you EVER leaving plan A. <p>Ever.<p>So, my whole point lately is to try to get you to understand what your limit truly is and how much of your self-esteem you will sacrifice before you say "enough is enough". I don't believe you have a firm grasp on this and I was hoping your counselor or Steve could help you define this better.<p>Your husband did NOT promise you anything. Please, do not in any way/shape/form believe that for a second. Just think about what it IS he said!!!<p>I agree that the OW LBing is awesome, that it would be wonderful if HE choose to end it with her.<p>But he hasn't yet. He HAS NOT ended it.<p>Take a 1000 mile view on all this. Do you know how many FREAKIN' times I heard my H say "it's over with her". And it NEVER was, never... Was it CLOSE to being over, yeah... it was... until I LB'd again, or he had some change of heart, or just decided to blame me for things he was dealing with. So many of us go through this, it is riduculous, you can almost sniff them out. The WS's that are sincere, and those that just mean it "for now" or "for a while".<p>They forget to add those few little words in at the end, don't they?? Pretty convenient huh??<p>Your H has not backed up his words with actions, and until he does that - Don't believe a word of it.<p>You are jumping the gun, BIGTIME and setting yourself up to get hurt again.<p>I am praying for you. I hope it is the end this time, you know I do, I am just that little voice of reason popping it's ugly head in to wait before getting your hopes up too high.<p>So, you say, what the heck do you do? Orchid had some pretty good ideas. Keep up the plan A (for you!!!). Pretend like it is over between him and OW, but do not believe it for a second. Go to the counseling sessions and figure out WHERE the heck your limits are and when do you say "I'm done" and/or you choose to stop all contact so you will hopefully never say you are done (plan B).<p>That is all I meant by my comments lately. <p>I am trying to make you think moreso than telling you what to do (well, I'm trying anyways, doesn't always come out that way).<p>Have you read any of the books on Co-dependency? Just curious if you thought it fit for your relationship... <p>Hugz,
HbH

cali...Why can't he just NOT call her because he's seeing her for who she is... why'd he have to drag me into it? <p>snl...I stand by one of my first posts to you, he wants you to mother him, do you want to be a wife or a mommy? Nothing in your long saga has changed my opinion in the slightest.