Thanks for all your responses, printed them out and read it over the weekend. I brought up the &#8216;unrepentant WS&#8217; issue with BF, we got into a semi heated discussion which in the end left me more confused than before. While I have read a lot of the recent posts in here, I don&#8217;t think I can really understand what it feels like to be a BS or WS especially those who have been together for a while. This makes it difficult to win an argument with him. <p>So what does repentant and remorseful WS means? BF says it is wrong to have affairs &#8211; EA or PA, that when he first took his vows he never once thought he would have one or get divorced. So why did he have an affair? This is when he described to me how miserable his marriage was, how badly it deteriorated in the last 5 years until he had no more love for his spouse. Told me the affair was more PA than EA, he didn&#8217;t divorce for the OP, there was just nothing there anymore. But It wasn&#8217;t the affair that destroyed his marriage. There was no love left and he didn&#8217;t want his marriage anymore no matter how much he tried to want it and he could not feel remorseful to what he doesn&#8217;t feel or want. <p>He asked me if that makes him an unrepentant WS? Does it?<p>He said that it was the events that took place 5 years before the divorce that destroyed it and he regret everything that happened within the period and promised not to let those things happen again. He regret not saying or doing anything when things became bad, when he thought he was avoiding conflict and keeping his marriage safe he was actually letting it destroy itself. He regret letting the anger and resentment consume him, he regrets being a crap husband and is sorry that things turned out the way it did esp for his kids. <p>He admits he was a coward and wished he had the strength to face up to the demise of his marriage and end it before the affair. He knew he caused more pain to everyone involved because of the affair. But he does not regret his decision to end the marriage, he is much happier now than before and he wants his ex-wife to be happy too. (Btw just so I don&#8217;t come out looking like the bit*chy potential new wife, his ex seems happily involved in a relationship herself). <p>He promised to always communicate, to let me know what he feels no matter how much it hurts, to never take things for granted, to give and take, to appreciate, enjoy and cherish each other, to support, to understand and to try his best to sustain the love we have now and let it grow. That he does not want to repeat the same mistake twice, he wants to use what he has learned from previous marriage to his new one. <p>But he says because of what he has been through, he knows there are no guarantees. The romantic notion of happily ever after is not always the case. He wants and will try to love me the same way and more but its impossible to hold a promise on that. <p>I don&#8217;t know, from what I gather he still has problems justifying his affair, even to himself, denial perhaps. He might not feel it was wrong then but he knows its wrong and the former is bigger than the latter ??*%? He has been pretty receptive tho&#8217;, going through this with me. <p>Zorweb, you mentioned that there is a guarantee in marriage and that both spouses have to live up to it. What guarantee exactly &#8211; that it will last? I don&#8217;t quite understand how now, especially after talking to him. I don&#8217;t think he will ever see things that way. Remember I am dealing with a WS who in the end didn&#8217;t love his spouse and didn&#8217;t want to remain married to her. <p>One thing that he always ask is will I ever change? He is afraid that I will change, says that people esp women change after marriage. What do u think? We do talk about possible changes, I don&#8217;t exactly how I will change, my feelings, my needs, my priorities- I have never been married before. <p>Anyway that&#8217;s basically sums up his response when I brought up the &#8216;unrepentant WS&#8217; issue. I don&#8217;t know how you guys do it, deep discussions about marriage, love, commitment, promises, affairs etc can be pretty exhaustive. Having a relationship with a divorced exWS makes it all the more difficult. In a way I understand what some of you r saying, why put myself in this position then? This is just one part of it, I don&#8217;t know how I am going to deal with problems in a step family environment? His kids, exwife? What if she still wants him? If its always going to be like this, marriage sounds like too much hard work to me now [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] ! Of course I am sure for most, it is all worth it &#61514;. Is it worth it for me? I ask myself that question a lot recently esp when I am alone. Seeing him, discussing issues such as this, his reponses helps me answer that question bit by bit. Thank you so much for all your comments (JL, Elad, Rose Read, SNL, Angling 4 answers, Twyla, Zorweb &#8211; hope I didn&#8217;t miss anyone there- feels like I am giving my grammy speech) I appreciate everyone of it.

We had a discussion at Bible Study the other day about what "repent" means. The idea presented was that it does NOT mean remorse, regret, etc (though that generally accompanies it), but the literal translation of teh Hebrew word used for it in the Bible means "to turn around", to change, to turn to a new path (in the Biblical sense, turn to God).<p>To me "to turn around" is a good definition. To repent would mean to turn around the behaviors and attitudes that lead to the affair. To commit to being a different person...one who will be honest, open and faithful, one who will deliberately avoid temptation, one who will work on his or her marriage and not let it fall into disrepair. <p>Kathi

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by katrina74:
<strong>
So what does repentant and remorseful WS means? BF says it is wrong to have affairs &#8211; EA or PA, that when he first took his vows he never once thought he would have one or get divorced. So why did he have an affair? This is when he described to me how miserable his marriage was, how badly it deteriorated in the last 5 years until he had no more love for his spouse. Told me the affair was more PA than EA, he didn&#8217;t divorce for the OP, there was just nothing there anymore. But It wasn&#8217;t the affair that destroyed his marriage. There was no love left and he didn&#8217;t want his marriage anymore no matter how much he tried to want it and he could not feel remorseful to what he doesn&#8217;t feel or want.
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>In MY opinion this would be way too wishy washy for me. He is still justifying having an affair and doesn't seem at all sorry that he didn't work harder on the marriage, or even like that was a viable option for him. If the going gets tough, he eventually gets going. He says he would try to keep the things that made his first marriage go sour from happening again. That's a far cry from saying "I'll try to keep those things from happening, but if they do I will do my damndest to fix it." He sounds like a guy who is very unwilling to fix the squeaky wheel. Much easier to replace it. A repentant former WS will take full responsibility for his/her affair, not point fingers at anyone else (My W was this or that), admit that no matter WHAT it was wrong and regret that they didn't try harder. The reason I was able to forgive my H for his affair was because he was truly sorry, remorseful for everything and committed to doing the hard work to make our marriage work. If he had come home with "I know it was wrong but you were this and the marriage was this, so I had an A...." that would have been unacceptable. That's a person who would do it again if the situation was right, because he can still justify it to himself. No way I would have taken on that kind of baggage when I was 25 and single. Too many fish in the sea without ex wives & ex mistresses.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by katrina74:
<strong><p>But he says because of what he has been through, he knows there are no guarantees. The romantic notion of happily ever after is not always the case. He wants and will try to love me the same way and more but its impossible to hold a promise on that. <p></strong><hr></blockquote><p>I wanted to add that this quote is not only a red flag, it's blaring sirens. This is not good. People who have this attitude have no business being married or taking vows. Unless of course their vows are worded "Till death do us part, unless... To love, honor and be faithful, unless..." It is true that there are no guarantees and people do make mistakes. But going into a marriage one shouldn't have that mindset. You should go into marriage thinking "This is forever, we will make it work, no matter what." Not "I promise to try..." That doesn't mean that marriage will be all champagne & roses. That isn't life. There will be hard times, people make mistakes (sometimes really bad mistakes). That initial level of commitment plays a big part in keeping a marriage together, even when bad things happen. I think that one of the main reasons my H and I have successfully made it work, even though he screwed up and had an A, is because we both went into it feeling like it was forever and that divorce wasn't an option. So even when things got very shaky, we had a strong foundation to go back to and start over. Starting out any other way is like building on quicksand in the first place.

fairydust has a very good point.. expecting marriage to work is the one thing that makes it work. Read somewhere that the one thing that separates people who get divorced from those who do not, is that the do-not group are committed to a life long marriage. They honor thier vows.....<p>Does it make him an unrepentant WS?<p>Many WS have no remorse for their affairs for exactly the reason your BF states. Harley talks about this in his books. Many people us an EMA as a way to end their marriage. It gives them someone else to support them through the trauma of separating. So in the end the WS is lying to their spouse and using the OP. They may not realize they are using the OP, but they are. When a WS is involved in an affair and leaves their spouse, they almost never stay with the OP. Once the marriage is dissolved they dump the OP.<p>I believe that what would make him repentant is if he feels bad for it because no matter how bad his marriage was, he had a responsibility to be up front with his wife. Also that he understands that he contributed at least 50% to the bad state his marriage was in. Also that he understand what it was he contributed.<p>He says he was a crap husband. Besides being a conflict avoider, what did he do? Can he articulate that? And what is he doing to ensure that your relationship does not take the same route?<p>RE: Zorweb, you mentioned that there is a guarantee in marriage and that both spouses have to live up to it. What guarantee exactly – that it will last?<p>No the guarantee is not that it will last.. as much as we would all like to give and have that guarantee in reality that is not possible. For example.. Suppose you find out that he becomes physically and emotionally abusive as soon as your vows are said. This happens in quite a few marriages. It did in my previous marriage. So at some point.. Immediately or years later the marriage ends because you cannot deal with it? <p>The guarantee that I believe both spouses have to live up to is that they treat each other with respect, honesty and kindness no matter what happens. And that they agree to really work on their relationship. See even if a spouse falls out of love, they can still be respectful to the other. They can still end the marriage without having an affair, lying to them, hiding money, etc etc etc. As much as I love my H and want us to be married until death do us part, I know that life happens. What I asked him for is the above, nothing more. I do not take his love for granted, nor he mine.. love must be nurtured. I we expect that nurturing from each other. And we have agreed to the respect, honesty and kindness. Does this make sense?<p>…”One thing that he always ask is will I ever change?”<p>The answer to this is yes you will change. So will he. The point is to work with each other and nurture each other so that the changes are good for the both of you.<p>….”that people esp women change after marriage.”<p>Sorry but this is sexist crap and a cop out. Men change incredibly after marriage. They quite courting their wives. They become non attentive and on and on. Ask his ex-wife about this one. Ask her how much he changed. I’m sure she’ll be able to give you an ear full on this. Change will happen. People grow, change and go through stages. It’s quite a trick to ride the waves of another person’s trip through life. It’s part of the work of marriage.<p>Did you talk to him about doing some work together on learning about MB and other concepts for maintaining a healthy marriage? Is he receptive to do it. I mean really do it? I think that his response to that would be your biggest indicator as to whether or not he is marriage material.<p>And, as long as his xWS status bothers you, I do not think you should marry him. Why? Because you are entering a marriage with some serious doubts. This really needs to be resolved in your mind and heart before you marry him or it will taint every aspect of your marriage. You will be afraid to give 100% while waiting for the other shoe to drop. You will be looking at his every move suspiciously.<p>You are very wise to be asking these questions now. Yes marriage is a lot of work but worth it. Right now you are finding out a lot of what that work is. <p>Your BF has a lot of 'cop out' statements. My xh did this and I just ignored them. Well, he lived them. And through it all kept saying that he could not promise anything, there were no guarentees. In the end that is exactly what he gave me... nothing.<p>Here is an article that you might find interesting….<p> The Walkaway Wife Syndrome <p>In addition to reading the MB material. I think that the material and books in the Divorce Busting web site might help you too. MB and DB are, in my pea brain, complementary concepts.<p>[ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: zorweb ]</p>

This is difficult, statistically most people are vulnerable to having an affair, including you, you cannot gaurantee you will keep your vows either. But these statistics are greatly dependent (IMO) on people not really understanding human psychology, and the mechanism by which a friendship changes into an EA, which then leads to bonding and sexual expression, completeing the sequence, and ending the marriage...(whether people continue on or not, the original marriage is dead).<p>However, it makes sense that direct experience with an affair (as ws or bs), if debriefed thoroughly on what happened and why, should go a long way toward affair proofing one in the future. I don't think it particularly useful to make a rule I will only date non-ws, vestal virgins, or people who don't drink milk out of the carton....you cannot make such rules meaningful, life is far to complex, and none of us is "perfect". What you need to do is understand your psychology, and look hard at a prospective mate and see how well you fit...if you do it right, you will achieve true "in-love" and affairs will never visit your union (accoring to harley and I agree). <p>As to your current bf, the question really must be, did he learn this life lesson, did he learn it well, or is he just talking the talk (not walking the walk)... Is hard to say from just your little info, and not seeing him....but I can't really tell, he is saying some of the right stuff, but has he really internalized it, is it part of who he is now, you will have to decide that...but he does sound a little self-serving...but then again we all do when defending ourselves (including you I imaagine). I would take it slow though, very slow, how long ago was he married? (that is very important), how long you been together...I recommend a minimum of 1 year before marrying someone, and in your case a couple years of exclusive relationship (without intecourse) will probably tell you what you need to know. I think one of the most important things for you to discern, is why does he want you, why has he chosen you. You also need to see how he deals with disaappointment, not getting his way, what actions does he take, are they good ones? Or do they make you feel uncomfortable? There are many books out now on mate selection, read them all and consider the material, you really can (IMO) if you work hard at it, drill down to the real truth about your bf (as he should you).<p>His past experience could be a real asset making him a safer, better person...or it could reveal he is not the one for you...could go either way. As for your question about step-kids, andf ex-wives...well, you are choosing a harder route, but can be very rewarding too....but if he really has feelings for ex-wife then he is certainly not ready. I would suggest (if possible) you meet his wife, and find opportunity to get to know her to some extent. This a good idea in any case, but if you are going to be step-mom it is essential, and may well reveal stuff about your bf.<p>Don't know how far along you are, may want to cool it a bit, and date some others, clear your head, the mating urge is very very strong in people your age, and often overrides their good sense. Keep talking about this stuff too with him, he should recognize your need to understand, and if he resists, or is aggressive about it, I'd forget him. Listen close, verify the things he tells you, and if you catch him in any clear lie, or denial, forget him. What you are looking for is he manipulative, telling you what you want to hear, cause he wants you...if you see that leave...do not make the fatal error thinking that love and marriage will "cure" that...it just means he probably will betray you sooner or later. And trust your INSTINCTS not your libido [we all sometimes get those things confused [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ]. Good luck