HI, I am trying to implement 180s and I am finding it difficult... I have michele weiners book on divorce busting... and I am thrilled to see all of the great results from 180s here on this board... I am not quite ready for plan b, but my plan a needs adapting, and I have not had good plan a, but moments of it...<p>anyway good 180, plan a advice appreciated on this thread.<p>HONEY [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

Honey ~ I hate to be a downer...but you need to be focusing on you right now.<p>In your emotional/mental state - a 180 plan would be nothing more than a manipulation.<p>I'd be more worried about finding an AlAnon sponsor and learning how to properly set boundaries without controling or expecting outcomes.

BR, I am working on me... and alot of the concepts I have been advised to work on ... are to work on me, 180 concepts... while... staying out of his business... sorry but to me that seems 180, not manipulation... I am not trying to manipulate... I am trying to add space, and not do whatever he wants.. ie. ... go out drinking with him.. in order to meet his en's even though this is not my en.<p>Are you an alanon, is your H an alcoholic? Have you walked this walk... think I have heard that you have... either in your posts to me or elsewhere.. not upset.. just questioning where your stance comes from... you seem to stand hard against drinking... -- Did your H quit? In my situation... and I know in alanon no specific advice or path of decisions is suppossed to be advised... I have not decided to ... not live with alcohol... I know that may be your stance, and a healthy one at that... but I am not there... and if my h has a drinking dilemma, I am willing to work with him on that. I have known my H 17+ years... a lot of our times have not been so CRAZED,as of late... we have loved each other very deeply. <p>I know from your point of view my situation must look terrible. Is that correct? I am sorry, but your posts are quite pointed, I am just curious where you are coming from. DId you take a stand... for your H to quit the drinking or have you no more?<p>Just curious, thanks, HONEY>

Here you go, Honey. This thread is sort of a compilation of several 180 ideas and musings. Hope it helps you out [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>http://66.111.66.234/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=41&t=000012

Michele Weiner-Davis's new book "Divorce Remedy" clearly spells out 180s...<p>HOWEVER, dealing w/ a spouse w/ an addiction requires YOU to be very strong and have adequate support... <p>I grew up w/ alcoholic stepfathers and watched my mom's marriages... she became a 'companion alcoholic' and it wasn't until she hit bottom with a DUI and car accident and was FORCED to seek counseling did I see her make some significant changes... she was eventually able to leave her husband and now 3 or 4 years later SHE IS SO DIFFERENT... much like the mom I remember from when I was 8 or 9... but it stole so much of our lives...<p>Please take BrambleRose's advice and seek out Al-Anon if you are feeling that alcohol is a problem for your spouse... (I have to admit that I need to go back and read some of your posts... but one that I read recently seemed to indicate a problem w/ alcohol and that you drank w/ him cause that is what he did). <p>Cali<p>[ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: Cali ]</p>

This is also a very good post......sort of ties together the old "working on yourself" thingy with 180s. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>http://66.111.66.234/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=41&t=000033

Honey,<p>Here are some specific 180s that would make you stronger:<p>No drinking with him - not even a sip of wine.<p>No going to his apartment.<p>Breathing 10 times before responding to any provocation that would have before led you to an angry outburst.<p>Instead of thinking of how to get him to come around to your way of thinking, get a hobby, some interests other than him - a life that doesn't revolve around his puppet strings he has tied to you.<p>Every one of these things dove-tail nicely into a good solid Plan A. <p>In my way of thinking, for anyone who has not been successful at consistently Plan A behavior, a 180 plan would definitely be a Plan A in action. Being the best person you could be, for your own quality of life improvement. <p>I agree that an Al-Anon program would be beneficial to you in implementing a better Plan A also, and doing a better 180.

Honey ~<p>Well, it seems that you don't seem to read what I post to you very carefully, or you'd know where my stance is from.<p>I'we written to you in the past that I am a betrayed wife of an active alcoholic. My husband has never darkened the doors of an AA meeting. I am a member of Al-Anon, and I practice the MB principles in the recovery of my marriage. I am extremely familiar with Divorce Busting and 180s, and the Last Resort Technique...some of which I put into my own Plan A. I found Michelle's Divorce Busting site long before I found Marriage Builders. I was never quite comfortable with Divorce Busting because, while I found some of it to make alot of sense...it was too easily turned into manipulation in a codependent alcoholic situation.<p>The Marriage Builders plan requires far more self introspection and true growth. I found Marriage Builders worked beautifully with my 12 step program.<p>What I see in your posts Honey, is that you are still looking desperately to control the outcomes and your H's reaction. You are obsessed with him and what he does, and trying to find the "right" way to act that will bring him home.<p>Find an oldtimer Al-Anon member and ask them about Forced Solutions. Do you have any Al-Anon material? Courage to Change has several pages on that topic. You might also want to read page 116 in One Day at a Time.<p>You are not dealing with a normal relationship Honey. You are dealing with an active alcoholic in full self-destruct mode. 180s in your case are simply another attempt to force an outcome.<p>Not only that, but your posts also show that you are more than willing to blame your husband for many of your problems right now...making him the bad guy. Only you can control you Honey - and until you get recovery for YOURSELF, you can't work on your relationship with him.<p>Yes, I'm in recovery with an active alcoholic. But that recovery would not have been possible if I had not learned to focus on myself and to recover for myself and to "Live and let Live." I would not be in recovery with my alcoholic husband except that he has made HIMSELF accountable for his own behavior, and has taken responsiblity for his own part of our marriage. <p>I'm not going to tell you you should leave your husband. But I will tell you that unless you stop trying to manipulate him, and start working a program of personal recovery for yourself - that NOTHING is going to change.

I'm in alanon, I have at least 6 years of meetings in me... sorry, I just recently went back... my behavior in the recent months.. post affair has regressed and become nutty... OK? DOn't we all know a little about that.<p>I am in alanon again. I am not giong out to party with him again, and I did not like that approach, but I am sure a lot of you out there married to an alcoholic or not, have tried to do things your ws's way in plan a... and that was my take, and no it was not good plan a, and not alanon at all... still alanon does not advise you what you should do, just offeres the tools.. <p>Alcohol is cunning and baffling... and confusing... and especially living with an alcoholic... ad being married to one... and <p>what in the past I did for years WAS-<p>decided to not put up with him or his drinking - tough loved him out the door... does that make sense... I even my way... be responsible, work hard, etc... my way orthe highwayed him out the door into the arms of another woman... I know it is not my fault... but I could of been a more loving alanon... I was a tough love master, believe it or not...<p>I regressed, when I lost him... recently.. OK kids? I know it is hard to believe, but I wanted him back, and decided if it even meant stooping to partying out at bars, and playing darts , if that was what he wanted right now, I was going to try it... instead of have him do it with others? I love him that much? sick? I hope not, but wrong, I guess so.... there sure were a lot of other people out at the bar drinking and playing darts... OK? I just decided to quit isolating me from him, by not doing this kind of behavior and quit trying to be the controling spouse who tried to make him be resonsible all the time... I turned back into the premarriage party girl I once was... I was in my twenties, and yes, it stopped when I got married and prgnant..<p>OK< kids, please don't tear me up too much... I guess it is frustrating to me, that ya'll can't see the whole picture... so hear I go defending myself... maybe someone will understand?/<p>Thanks for the 180 advice, I am going to read it and follow it... I do believe my plan a behavior needs 180 stuff in it... maybe not a perfect 180 or a perfect plan a... I have to mix alittle MB, a libttle alanon, a little divorce busting, and some spirituality and stir the pot to get the right recipe for me? See? thanks, HNEY<p>I really appreciate all of your posts, even those I am feeling defensive to, I am sorry for that... just thought the whole... or at least more of.. the story would help.<p>HONEY [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img]

Honey,
I know you can feel beat up by some (ME! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ) at times...but it's not to make you feel worse or feel like you are bad..but because some things can be pain fully clear to outsiders where mistakes are...<p>If your WH had no issues with alcohol going to a bar and playing darts with him in plan A is fine...except that his behavior was totally repulsive...plan A regardless of the activity does not mean being degraded and put down...that's where you went wrong...not the specific activity..but the crap you subjected yourself to was not oK....that's what makes me/us crazy...I personally love darts...and I love beer...but I don't love being out with some one dispecting me and degrading me...not one bit...and I would not put myself there....Plan A is being with someone and letting them enjoy your company..NOT flaunting the other woman in your face...not putting you down.<p>Problem is that you expect rational discussion and problem solving from someone is not acting rational...this is not like pre affair territory where you two had a fight..and worked it out..he's busted...he's in the fog...and you get suprized each and every time he acts like an alien to your advances, interactions, and demands...but that's what he is....the more you fall into his baiting the more he will continue to justify his actions by proving how horrible you are...<p>You need to focus yourself and let him be...so that each and every contact plays out your way...with you maintaining all control and dignity...<p>it is hard...
Be good to yourself Honey...
ARK

"What ^^ark said!"<p>I was so carefully wording my post 'cause I know that 'beat' up feeling...<p>...know that defensive feeling too... been feeling it lately...<p>Someone posted to me that it is OUT OF LOVE, 'cause we don't like seeing our friends get hurt... or put themselves into situations where they get hurt...<p>The biggest thing that I am learning is to 'strike while the iron is cold.' This means to really THINK out my motivation for doing or saying something... to make sure that it is FOR ME and NOT TO MANIPULATE WH... to make sure that I am not operating WITHIN emotion...<p>hugzzzz,
Cali

Thanks again to everyone, I really appreciate the advice, thanks BR, thanks Cali, thanks Ark, and everyone! Thanks! I know I am messing up, but I am trying... it is confusing! I know I am not acting rational, not enough. I really know ... I messed up, believe me I got beaten up...today again by words when I talked to my H.. he has sd some really nutty stuff to me, and it is really hard to deal with.<p>I am upset by what kind of situation I am in... <p>BR, Do you mean your marriage is in recovery from the affair and your H is still drinking? Is that the case... ? I have lived in recovery in the past with my H... for ME... if you know what that means... I have majorly regressed since the A. <p>I find it hard to be strong, becauase I think that will push him away... because as we do not put up with or live with the drinking, then... we grow apart from our spouses who live in that world.<p>Anyway, I am very grateful to you, and sorry I had to ask about your situation... and was not totally sure.. it is what I thought... but I am clearer now... i apologize, I do read posts closely, but right now I am working 70 hours a week, and quite a tired puppy - and my life is crzy, i find it hard to remember my own appointments... etc.<p>Also , i hav e back injury, and am just getting more of my memory back as I come off of medication... for that which affected my memory.<p>thanks for al the great advice, I am trying again tomorrow, and tognight! to make me more healthy and take better care of me...!!! It is hard, when you want your marriage to work so badly!<p>Hugs, honey<p>Thanks, HONEY.