Well, here's the past 5 months of my life...<p>The first month, I was a wreck, physically and emotionally, I nearly imploded. I survived only on instinct. I LB'ed a bit, but not too badly, either. I knew somehow deep down that pushing too hard would have bad results. I found a couple of things to read. One was an on-line PDF book that had some sound ideas. Basically suggested: NO PRESSURE, don't act needy, project confidence & happiness, don't argue, agree with WS's feelings, etc. So that started me off on a decent footing. A couple of days after d-day, she actually tried to break it off with OM - but failed. She just seemed to be saying, "give me some time and it'll be okay." I trusted her then.<p>Months 2, 3 and 4. I pulled myself up quite a bit. I found MB. I worked on myself as much as I could. I did nice things for WW. I went out of my way to not LB. I did pursue quite a bit. My neediness went from being intense, down to what you might expect in a decent Plan A. There were good moments (where she seemed to warm up to me), and bad moments (where she was saying things that made me believe my wife had died and was replaced by a hideous cyborg). The general tone was of paralysis. Yet she found it hard to justify herself against my Plan A efforts, and in doing so, I think settled into a happy "cake eating" routine, instead of running away like many WS do. We had a trip home where she really did seem to warm up to me a bit on our return - some noticeable changes - for about 3 days. No sign of SF anywhere, even though she's more than willing to continue showering together (what would OM think??!). I don't bring up the subject - I know what the response will be.<p>I think she tried to break it off with him a couple of times during this period - and failed miserably each time. Some of her comments throughout the period:<p>"When I thought about us having children, I was excited about telling our parents - when I think about having his children, I'm excited about telling him."<p>"He's not better than you - just different."<p>"I know I can be happy with you, I just don't know if I want to spend the rest of my life with you."<p>"Why couldn't you just have been an a**h***?"<p>"That's the thing about being in-love, there's an edge to it." (Explaining the ups-and-downs in her and OM's relationship - thanks for the insight!!)<p>Through some investigation of my own, it seems that OM isn't all that he's cracked up to be. MC thinks the shine is wearing off. WW's made subtle comments that make me think he's selfish - using her. He hasn't sent her an e-mail in months. She openly said she doesn't trust either of us. She consciously knows being with him is not a good long-term idea - being stuck overseas, no family, eating dog, a cramped apartment, he's currently poor, etc. Oh, but he says they can move back to North America if she wants - would I trust a guy who's willing to f*** around with a married woman? Not bloody likely. This is a woman who I've never known to take $%!@ from anyone - so the fact that she'd take it from this guy blows me away. She deserves better, but doesn't want it.<p>Their A does seem to be coming to some kind of cross-roads. If the shine is coming off, I guess it means she's got to do some honest soul searching. Either accept his flaws and go with him, or accept my overtures and go with me. But she openly doesn't want to make that choice. She openly says, "I want you both." I guess with 50/50 odds from both of us, she get's a sure thing by having both.<p>Month 5 - this past month. I've started running out of Plan A gas. I've taken to distancing more. It conserves my strength at very least. By having pursued for a while, backing off seems only logical. Time and space can only help her, right? She seems to think that's what she wants, after all. Maybe allowing her to have more time alone would be like "separation without the separation". Maybe I should just be happy that she's living at home. Small blessings? Or just a constant reminder? Even when she's late for supper and has it at work, I know what's happening - she's spending time with him - even if non-SF - in some ways I see that as even worse. She's gotten so good at lying. But then again, she's had some serious practice (from OM #1 days). Whereas I think guilt affects some WS such as Sue in SAA, causing them to leave, I think she's okay with the lies, since they preserve the status quo. And that status quo - it's the world to her.<p>Where are we at the moment? I think we'd both love to avoid each other. Whereas even a couple of months ago we might go out to do some fun stuff together, I think we both avoid that now - she uses the "I'm busy with work" excuse - and maybe she is - how am I to really tell? My trust has been utterly destroyed. Yet I have to act like to do trust her as I continue to Plan A. Very hard indeed. I've been reduced to what feels like playing games in a way - putting on a happy face when I feel like %$#! is just one example. We never had to live with such strain. Even in the weeks before d-day, she was a bit quiet, but still engaged, still smiled, still gave SF, even on the morning of d-day.<p>She's recently talked of leaving. Asked me what I thought she should do if she comes back from her trip in February and still feels the same way. I feel like tearing into her fog, saying, "Well, the feelings will follow the commitment to try." But I know that won't work. So I say, "You need to do whatever you need to do. I can't pressure you one way or another." It feels like I've abandoned my trusty methods of the past - reasoning almost always worked then. Never does now.<p>I think in her mind, she'd love nothing more than to leave, have her own place, have her fun, be with her friends with no commitments, but also have me as a close friend. She just doesn't get it - get how that would hurt me so much. Or maybe she does, and that guilt has kept her in check. I wonder if she's still here based on guilt, hope, or something else. I've asked her a couple of times, point-blank, "Why are you still here?" The most telling response was, "Well, either I don't want to go deep down, or it's like getting into a cold lake, and I need to do it slowly." She also openly admits that she'd have a hard time not thinking about me, what I'm doing, etc. - she's willing to say that she "cares for me", that I've been her best friend for 13 years. I will admit that the most hurtful words and raw anger have started to become less intense - not sure if that means she's starting to deal with it, or reaching a point of apathetic acceptance that signals the true death-knell for our life together.<p>The way she talks sometimes recently... she's not the same person. She talks about how she can understand how some people commit suicide (although she assures me she's nowhere near that), how she's becoming a closet alcoholic (well, I know she isn't - 1-2 drinks a day is about the norm now - but that's more than usual for her). She admits she's treating me callously, but can't seem to help herself. She follows the WS mold so well it's frightening. Except she does talk to MC about my "goodness" a lot - but that doesn't stop her from her fantasies.<p>So I'm staring month 6 in the face. And finally, I've started to question this whole thing. "Is she really the one for me?" "Will I ever be able to trust her again?" "Can I look at her sexually the same way again?" "Do I really want her to be the mother of my children, after all of this?" "Is there someone else out there who can love me truly and fully?" "Do I love her enough to possibly put my life on hold for another 1, 2, maybe 3 years, just to find out she's contacted him again, and we're back to square one?" And even though she's a great looking woman, I even begin to question that now - I notice other women A LOT more now. She keeps telling me I'm so handsome, so why shouldn't I believe I can attract someone else?<p>It's so sad, really. The way we talked, I always kind of expected that we'd be starting to try and have kids - right around now, actually. Sigh. And so instead of that, I either have to stare at probably another 5 years with or without her to get to that point. Either I've got to separate, divorce, meet someone new and love them enough to marry, or get over this with her to a point where I trust and love her enough to be the mother of my kids. 5 years - that makes me 36. I never wanted that - I wanted it before I got to that age. But I guess we don't always get what we want in life. And life is so very short, to have even a bit of it chewed up by this $#!@ is just so horrible - for both of us.<p>I know she's ill, addicted, etc. I also know that addicts need to hit rock bottom before they pull themselves out of it. And she's not there yet. I've made it easy for her. She's getting the best of all worlds right now. She has no motivation to choose. Or maybe I'm being too harsh - maybe she is slowly figuring this out on her own, and my talking like this makes me an impatient [censored] who deserves to be left hanging. I don't know.<p>I realize that Plan B should not be a "strategy". But it is in a way: a strategy to stay sane. A strategy to move forward in life, out of a hopeless deadlock. The risks are great indeed. What if the deadlock wasn't actually hopeless - what if we just needed a few more weeks and would have hit some kind of breakthrough? Or if it would have worked itself out in a few months with just more Plan A? What if I haven't really been doing all that I can in my Plan A, been doing some things wrong, and by changing some more, it will mean all the difference? Or what if the breakthrough really does require the "tough love" of Plan B / DB's going dark / Dobson's "crisis"? What if I'm only prolonging something inevitable, giving life to the "Misapplication of Plan A" (as per the thread by Distressed)? Or maybe my expectations are simply screwed up - impatience creeping in again. But it is about me, after all - my feelings, where I'm at. There comes a point where a person needs to simply say, "enough", stop [censored]-footing around. (MC is trying to keep me going - but I think she's not all that she's cracked up to be, to be honest. She's unfocused. She isn't solution oriented - which is perfect in WW's view, probably. She's done very little for her. But with no plan, I'd expect no more.)<p>I don't expect you guys out there to answer these, because there are no clear answers, until after-the-fact. And even then, much would only be second guessing.<p>I know I think too much. I let this run my life too much. I have changed a lot, as WW admits. Most of it is subtle. And so much more is possible, but I need her participation. As for filling EN's, WW admits that she's the one who needs to open up to allow me to do that. She just won't. She's waiting for the feeling to come back, and believes she's completely justified in doing so. She admits she's going down a path that will LIKELY lead to regret. But she can't stop herself.<p>Sorry for making this so long. I just need to vent. Vent at the fact that my choices are dwindling. I've been trying new things, trying to change the dynamic, with the belief that relationships are like see-saws - change on one side is inevitably met by some kind of change on the other. If there isn't, then simply try something else. And sometimes it's only time that can do the job.<p>So am I giving up too easily here?<p>To the WS out there, here's a question: when your A died, was it an "event" or a "process"? Was it really BS, or was it OP who caused the end?<p>[ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: J.R. ]</p>

Hi there. Sorry to hear that you're starting to wear down [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>This is the thing that makes me wonder about MB sometimes...it seems to me (from my own personal experience) that so much of the WS making that decision has to come from themselves. It comes from learning that they have control over the happiness in their own lives and the ability to make it possible (instead of feeling trapped or voiceless).<p>Hmmm...the end of my affair...it was caused by (drum roll)............ME!! I wanted better for myself then the life I was living. I knew that I had some serious problems (still do) and I was simply tired of trying to run from them. It was time to face my life head on and take some control again.<p>[ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: TowardsTheFuture ]</p>

It was a good vent.<p>Remember a few things: Plan A is to lay the ground work for Plan B; that said, Plan A is about learning how to change to meet your spouses EN's and learning how not to LB. And the spouse needs time to see the changs.<p>You go to Plan B when you feel that too many love units are bieing withdrawn and tht you will fall out of love with W is you contiue to Plan A. <p>Once you start being cyncial is a start of people eventually going to Plan B because it's a sign of losing love. Just becareful beyou can lose love too.

>>> It was a good vent. <<<<p>Hey, it's what I do best! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Naw, actually I've been so very good lately - the picture of serenity - at least for WW!<p>My little jealousy incident (see prior post) has stirred the pot a bit (had to come clean with MC in an e-mail since WW will undoubted tell her about it). But I figure that at this stage, no one incident's going to be fatal. (And it was interesting! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] )<p>I just need to regroup every now and then. Refocus on myself. Know in my heart that things will work out. I don't need to rush this - time for myself is good. Even when things look like they're moving towards the big D, that's just a perception thing - WW's too smart to let our lives come unravelled.

JR wrote that WW said<p>"Give me some time and it'll be okay." I trusted her then.<p>My WW said same thing on 12/28 and again on 1/24.
(note D-Day 12/7/01). But I don't know what that means or how long to wait.<p>JR wrote:<p>The general tone was of paralysis. Yet she found it hard to justify herself against my Plan A efforts, and in doing so, I think settled into a happy "cake eating" routine, instead of running away like many WS do<p>Ditto. My WW constantly tells me I'm getting better, she is sorry for my pain, I am making her happy, etc. Yet she still sees OM, tells him she loves him, etc. I really don't know what she is truly thinking and feel like my marraige is in limbo.<p>No sign of SF anywhere, even though she's more than willing to continue showering together (what would OM think??!)<p>Same as me. She lets me wash her back, dry her body. But no kisses, no SF. I get very aroused, but have to let it go.<p>But she openly doesn't want to make that choice. She openly says, "I want you both." I guess with 50/50 odds from both of us, she get's a sure thing by having both.<p>My WW doesn't openly say this, but her actions confirm it. She goes on with family life trying to be normal, making monetary plans for future, talking about family vacations, yet she continues A seemingly unabated. She has best of both worlds.<p>I know I think too much. I let this run my life too much. I have changed a lot, as WW admits. Most of it is subtle. And so much more is possible, but I need her participation. As for filling EN's, WW admits that she's the one who needs to open up to allow me to do that. She just won't. She's waiting for the feeling to come back, and believes she's completely justified in doing so. <p>Ditto. This thing has kidnapped my life. It is all I think about. I can't make plans for future, can't think about my children's future, can't project two months down the road. I am waiting, but I don't know for what? For him to leave her (can't see that happening short term) For her to fall out of love with him (ditto) For a light bulb to go off in her head? (maybe-but doubtful with no pressure).<p>So, my point JR is you are going thru the normal situation that all of us go thru. At some point, it will be too hard to continue, or you will have more doubts than certainty. Just keep on the consistent road, not getting too high or too low.<p>Hang in there, buddy. We all are pulling for you.

Boppo, sounds like our situations have many similarities, maybe moreso than most. Except for the timeframe - looks like you've only been into this for a couple of months now. You hang in there, too!<p>I'm filling EN's for family commitment (our families don't know anything yet), financial support, conversation (at least to an extent - I'm sure she gets it from OM also, although his English is poor), and now, domestic support. I suspect OM is great for affection, admiration, probably SF (we used to have GREAT SF before, BTW - she openly admits that). I used to have a lock on recreational companionship, but I think OM shares that one with me now too. I know she finds me more attractive, but that's obviously not near the top of her list now.<p>I hate the situation because I know I could go to Plan B and probably be effective at shaking her out of her foggy world - but that shouldn't be my motivation. She's pretty convinced she doesn't need me, but still says she thinks about me a lot - kind of sounds like our WW are working from the same script here!<p>The things is, I realize that I can do nothing myself to stop the A. Even doing 180's, changing myself, etc. - all have got to be for me alone - and they are. It just has to die a natural death, on its own schedule. I fear that by my supporting her in this dual life, I'm only prolonging things - that she's still in her bubble, even though I'm in the loop - what's the concensus on that? It seems like living together through this - after a certain point - seems to be a disadvantage. Can anyone comment on this?? Has anyone gone through the entire process from start to finish while never having separated, even once?? It just seems rather unlikely to me. She acknowledges the potential, my changes, etc. already, too BTW.<p>I mean, given that her and OM have had some rocky moments, if she had experienced these on her own, I have to wonder if they would have been enough to kill things already. As it is now, she may just be building up some tolerance to his "quirks" (as she might like to think of them in her little fantasy world). Then again, the way things were portrayed in the early days, I wondered if he wasn't perfect and they'd be together forever. Now that I hear things like "I don't trust either of you" - boy, that actually brings a smile to my face!!!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I guess the scripts aren't all that far from the textbook after all.<p>Of course, by breaking the bubble, I remove my EN, and with family commitment now gone, she may have little motivation to look at it as important anymore. And since we don't have any kids, that's not there as a motivating factor to work on things either. That's a reason SH has suggested it best to go with a longer Plan A if you have no kids. I just don't know if I can stomach it beyond the suggested 6 months.<p>You can see what I'm going through here... struggling to assess my options. Struggling to assess my feelings. I'm going to schedule another session with SH next week to chat - will probably be enlightening. Last time we talked was SOOO much better than almost every session I've had with our local IC/MC.<p>Okay, I can't resist... here's a few more famous WW quotes:<p>"If I hate it, can I come back in 6 months?" (I was shocked hearing this - could only muster, "I really don't know" - which was good, because she needed to know it wasn't a "yes".)<p>"I just need 10 - no maybe just 1 year to get this out of my system." (ahh, so you can already see that your mind will change?)<p>"Maybe we'll get remarried some day." (some wishful thinking, using me as a safety valve again.)<p>"You're such a great guy, I feel like I should write you a reference letter or something." (for my next wife??)<p>"Our relationship [her and OM] is very up-and-down, and you and I have been very steady - so the average is probably the same - but being steady - how boring!" (hmm, wait until those "ups" aren't so "up"!)<p>"I just wish I hadn't told you about this - I could have worked it out by myself." (wow! great example of honesty.)<p>"You should find yourself an addiction!" (yeah, she even admits it's an addiction!)<p>Yeah, my memory is way too good for this $%!* - got a million of 'em.

J.R. I am impressed by your analysis of your situation. The problem that I see is that you are using your feelings to guide you in this melodrama. The same thing that your wife is doing. Instead you should be looking at this scenario in a more practical way. The question you should ask yourself is would you enter into a business partnership knowing that person could betray and steal your money. Of course, one can hope that a person will change in the future and become a better person. The problem I find with that viewpoint is that it is based on a big "maybe".

JR hi,
You said
"I either have to stare at probably another 5 years with or without her to get to that point. Either I've got to separate, divorce, meet someone new and love them enough to marry, or get over this with her to a point where I trust and love her enough to be the mother of my kids. 5 years - that makes me 36."
I think you are being somewhat pessimistic on how long it takes to meet someone and get to know them sufficiently to found a family. People in their early twenties are still finding out about themselves usually at the same time as dating. A few years later those people mature a lot. Their personality is more established. Their convictions clearer. A few months is all it takes. OTOH as you know too well marrying someone who hasn't sussed themselves out is a bit like russian roulette only more people get hurt.