Acknowledging that something is sin, is not the same thing as repenting. <p>Repenting is turning away, and having remorse.<p>David knew he was wrong, justified it as much as he could, hid it as much as he could, tried to make things right by marrying the OW, (even after he set her husband up to be killed so she would be legally available) but until he truly repented and had remorse did he begin to understand forgiveness.

Since our divorces were not final when we met, some have said my marriage was begun as an affair. Does God bless it anyway? I believe He does.<p>Both of our spouses were with the OP, and neither seemed to have any desire to work it out with us. I won't discuss my H's situation further, but in mine - I'd worked long and hard to repair my 20 year marriage, to no avail. <p>But... that's not what you're asking about, is it? I have struggled with this topic myself, as I wondered if God could possibly bless this union, and after lots of study and prayer, I believe He does, and that this marriage is EQUALLY valid as my first.

boppo, that is why I do this, say exactly what is on my mind, for whatever it accomplishes, even perhaps as you say, give a glimpse into foggy ws land...but let me clarify re God's will....we HAVE to communicate somehow, and I think God speaks to us (allegorically) in our hearts, and I do think that means we experience God in emotions...you don't? I would prefer and email form heaven, or burning bushes, or writing in the sky, but alas He does not seem to do that to often.<p>boppo...the bible is very clear about this particular sin. It must be acknowledged, it must be repented...any questions?<p>snl..nope, I agree.<p>[ January 31, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

God does forgive and people do make mistakes. But as somebody who is deeply religious I wouldn't rely on God's forgiveness if I went out and committed an act that the bible condemns. That's putting God to the test, which the bible also says not to do. The only way God forgives a person is if he/she is truly repentant. Planning something like committing adultery, divorcing the spouse and then remarrying looks like the person isn't really repentant and I wouldn't expect God's forgiveness.<p>Of course only God knows the heart condition and he's the deciding factor on whether or not somebody is truly repentant and deserves to be forgiven and blessed.

SNL<p>If you and your spouse were free to marry (not 2 adulterers, not commited to anyone else)and stood before God on your wedding day and asked Him to bless your marriage, then you are spiritually married. We have free will and God respects the choices we make. Same way it is our decision whether we go to heaven or hell, not God's. He simply honors our choice.If you asked Him to bless your marriage then He honored that and your choice of spouse.<p>As for the abuse situation you bring up.....you are being ridiculous.I think you just want to argue for the sake of arguing. God does not expect us to endure physical abuse, which could ultimately end in our death(emotionally or physically).A broken, destroyed vessel isn't very useful. And in the passage in the gospel of Mark, Jesus is not talking about divorce to remove oneself from physical harm is HE? No. If you look at the passage in it's context He's talking about a man or woman who leaves their spouse because of sexual immorality. <p>The allowable reasons for divorce in the bible revolve around sexual sin on the part of one spouse. That being said,it is utterly ridiculous to assume God wants us to stay in a marriage where we are being harmed, emotionally, physically or sexually. All those forms of abuse bring "death" in one way or another. It would be pretty hard for us to carry out God's purpose for our lives if we're dead (in one way or another)now wouldn't it.<p>Your questioning doesn't fool me SNL. All you do is go around and around in circles and you never get anywhere. You still appear as miserable as ever.You are hell bent on ending your marriage and have continually sought justification, whether psychological or biblical. Well you might find it psychologically but your not going to find it biblically.It will not benefit your immortal soul ,dear brother, to twist God's word to fit your agenda. James 3:13-18 points out that there is a difference between heavenly and demonic wisdom. It might help you to think long and hard on that passage. Your affair in your marriage and your fence sitting all these months are purely self seeking. You desperately try to appear to question God's word only to fit your self seeking interests. Well the passage in James tells us that when we have self seeking in our hearts that the wisdom that comes from that does not come from God. "It is earthly, sensual and demonic. Where there is self seeking and envy (of a better marriage?), confusion (the epitome of your posts)and every evil thing are there. The wisdom that comes from God is first pure(free from defilement)then peaceable,gentle, willing to YIELD, full of mercy and good fruits,without partiality and without hypocrisy"<p>You refuse to follow God's instruction( to yield) to husbands ( and your wife may well refuse to follow His instructions to wives, I don't know)by arguing that "psychologists" say you can't have a sacrificial marriage. Well I think God knows better than any psychologist.I'm sure going to trust His word before I trust the word of some human being no matter what their credentials.If you had biblical counsel on what it REALLY means to have a sacrificial marriage (not just your and some psychologist's assumption of what it means) you might find it more palatable. However, you have to agree with a softened, meek heart to do as your God instructs before you can see the fruits. You also need to understand exactly what it is He's instructed you to do. Sacrificial marriage in no way implies that you sacrifice your entire self( you have implied this meaning in other posts, showing your lack of true understanding) for a spouse who is abusive.It's not about that at all. <p>I'm praying for you and Thinker, SNL. Many of us here have grown to honestly care about you and the state of your marriage.

[img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] <p>WHATEVER. <p>Cali

Sorry I started this thelogical debate. This site should be about healing and this thread may be doing the opposite. Like I said in my original post, IT PROBABLY DOESN'T MATTER and "I guess to really be doing sucessful Plan A, maybe I shouldn't even be thinking about it".

If you asked five people to read the bible, they will all have their own interpretation of what something said. Current events tell us that. I think we all agree that adultery is a sin. But if you think about it so is lying, so is prostitution, so is getting wasted on pills or booze, so is bad mouthing your mother and father...we are all sinners. Not one person on this earth can say they never sinned. So, is it more sinful to commit adultery or lie to your boss or your kids or your parents? Suppose you steal because you are hungry? How about guy or woman who cheats on his taxes, a version of stealing. Who is the bigger offender? Do some sins have more punch than others? All those ready to throw stones...think of the story of Jesus and Mary Madeline. I beleive the question was is it a blessed marriage it was born of sin? I don't know. Since, according to the bible, we are all born of sin, that makes us all sinners, so maybe none of us are truly blessed or maybe what it means to be blessed is being able to get up every morning and get dressed by ourself, having enough to eat, having shelter, and appreciating the things we all have.<p>[ January 31, 2002: Message edited by: HappyMac ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
...secularly we indeed are legally married (essentially an economic contract).<hr></blockquote><p>So ..... then in 5 sentences or less, please tell me if when you married Thinker, did you both agree that this was SOLELY an ECONOMIC CONTRACT? <p>OR .... did you love her (spiritual) and marry her because you loved her???<p>Jo

Happymac-<p>The point is asking for forgiveness and repentance. An A that leads to D that leads to remarriage is not repentance.

mth...As for the abuse situation you bring up.....you are being ridiculous.I think you just want to argue for the sake of arguing. God does not expect us to endure physical abuse, which could ultimately end in our death(emotionally or physically).<p>snl...How do you know that? But more importantly, how do we decide when it is occuring (so as to justify leaveing a marriage I guess).<p>mth...If you look at the passage in it's context He's talking about a man or woman who leaves their spouse because of sexual immorality. <p>snl...If you are saying leaveing a marriage for lustful reasons (of any kind) is wrong, I agree.<p>mth...it is utterly ridiculous to assume God wants us to stay in a marriage where we are being harmed, emotionally, physically or sexually. All those forms of abuse bring "death" in one way or another. It would be pretty hard for us to carry out God's purpose for our lives if we're dead (in one way or another)now wouldn't it.<p>snl...Actually I agree, am surpised you do, this is essentially the argument of all views that say marriage is not an absolute, and must meet certain standards to be a marriage. Just keep in mind one persons abuse (and can leave) might be another persons simple discomfort, which they need to live with (and not leave)...how do you tell? In my case, I am certainly not contemplating the end of a marriage cause I am happy, or cause I just wanna chase skirts, as you know, and after 24 years, I think it is fair to say I am not acting capriciously....the fact is it is not working the way God says it should, there is abuse/neglect and I wonder if that is the outcome (consequence) of not following God's will (for each of us) in marrying... I have a real problem with freewill and marriage, the notion that GOd will bless any union I just flat out don't believe, otherwise (as you pointed out) no, one could leave abusive marriages. If there really is freewill then we can make marital errors, it is that simple. And if we can make errors, we can be forgiven, and expected to try and correct them, including seperation. I must tell you mth, posts like yours make me extremely uncomfortable, like I should just give in, and just do it....but I know that is the wrong reason, so I continue to try and understand it. I do think as Christians we get heavily programmed with this stuff.....it drives me nuts. In the ignorance of youth, and the presence of freewill, we make a decision we would not make again if we could do our life over, and it is a life sentence...forever? Tell me mth, forget all the other stuff, how we have sinned or not....just keep it simple, just say you no longer want to be married to someone, you just keep doing it forever, do you want to live like that? If after 5 years, 10 years, 20 years of trying, of "doing" it, you do not want to live as man and wife...what do you do with that, you keep just doing it till you die? Doesn't there have to be something more? Shouldn't you want this enthusiastically? How do you live with someone and tell them everyday (as radical honesty requires) you do not want to do this, but will obey God, follow the script until one of you is released by death? I look at this, and it makes me sadder than I could ever express to you, I'd rather be dead. I cannot fake it mth, is that what I have to do? And if I don't have the feelings I am just a dirty rotten sinner, who will rot in hell, cause he can't "love" his "wife" (the name on the marriage license, the stranger he said vows with) the way he is supposed too. Is life only about duty mth, long as I just do it, that is enough....how I feel makes no difference. You (and others say) but the feelings will come? And I (and similar folks) say they haven't come, how long do I wait, forever? Tell me mth, how long does one try? And if you say forever, then marriage is indeed a contract, and we are all property, and might just as well get used to it....is that what marriage is? Or is it a place where each chooes freely to be, everyday. How do you want to be loved mth, is duty enough? Will you accept your H honoring vows, if he told you that was his only motivation?<p>mtr...Your questioning doesn't fool me SNL. <p>snl..Why would I be interested in fooling you? It is not like I am asking for money or something [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>mth...You are hell bent on ending your marriage and have continually sought justification, whether psychological or biblical. <p>snl..I am hellbent on ending the unhappiness and misery both thinker and I have lived with far too long.<p>mth...It will not benefit your immortal soul ,dear brother, to twist God's word to fit your agenda. James 3:13-18 points out that there is a difference between heavenly and demonic wisdom. <p>snl...I agree, but why do you assume you are not the one twisting?<p>Thanks for your response, and for caring.

SnL you always "liven up" a post [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] , though I suppose like Boppo said somehow this got turned into a theological debate.. well more like an argument. <p>I seriously doubt any of us will convince each other of our own interpretations or beliefs.<p>On a side note, Snl, what do you do for a living? I understand where your passion comes from, but I was wondering if you used that analytical mind of your for other things than tormenting us with your wit =)

jo, I think boppo is getting bummed out, maybe best to just let it go, this is the inevitable place one gets with any religious disciussion....<p>bottom line boppo, depends on how you define terms, I think if you leave a marriage for the purpose of marrrying a waiting op, you are asking for trouble, spiritually and secularly. However, I think marriages can end, and remarriage is no different (to God, or secularly) then a first marriage. All the same issues and risks exist. I don't think it makes any difference whether an affair occured or not, cause the issue is not the affair, it is the marriage....the difference is one has to release the affair, give it up, I guess that is one way of looking at repentance, giving up the gain from the sin (this is both physically giving it up, stop..but also in your heart give it up). I came to understand that, hopefully your wife will too, not cause it gaurantees recovery, but because it rights the wrong.<p>and jo, we were young and foolish, we didn't discuss much of anything, except would it ever really work, and that we were taking a risk marrying without working it out...so I guess you could say I did lay my cards on the table. But I did say the vows, and I meant them, but I had reservations, so I shouldn't have done that.

hanging, I am a problem solver for a living, I fix things, heating, air conditiong, control systems mostly. But was also a paramedic for 5 years, and am a builder (sometimes)....mostly my passion is problem solving, never met a problem I couldn't love [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] I read and study up on stuff that helps me understand myself, life, human behaviour, etc.... If analyzing, one might say it is how I compensated for a chaotic childhood. Relationship wise I am a rescuer, I only dated girls with problems....probsbly trying to fix my mother who was messed up.

I agree it is not repentence, but if you read through the millions of stories on this site, it seems that many WS are repentent for hurting their spouse; however, they aren't repentent for marrying the OP. I know that doesn't make sense, but we all know that unless the WS has a problem with fidelity, the average person in a marriage doesn't stray if everything is honky dory at home. I know that isn't an excuse, but the WS feels justified in what he or she is doing no matter how wrong it appears. Sometimes the hardest thing to do is forgive someone we trusted who hurt us. Forgetting is a whole other issue and shouldn't be confused with forgiving. Perhaps the repentence doesn't come because the person can't forgive themselves for hurting someone.

Hello,<p>In reading this thread I could not help but think of Ecclesiastes 5: 4-6 concerning vows. "It is better that you should not vow, than that you should vow and not pay." This is talking about money, but the principle can be applied to other vows, I happen to believe.<p>While the vows, pledges, promises that we make may NOT be God's will for us, He does expect us to honor them when we make them. Jesus also said "Let your yes be yes, and your no be no. Any more than this comes from the evil one." In other words, if you say you are going to do something, do it, don't make excuses or rationalizations before or after saying yes or no.<p>And, God DOES admonish us not to commit adultery. It's found in the 10 commandments. <p>Free will, yes we all have it, but it's a double-edged sword.<p>Just my thoughts.<p>[ January 31, 2002: Message edited by: ashygirl ]</p>

If your W and OM do not repent for the damage they caused you, then how can their potential marriage be blessed?<p>Think about this, the first M is the hardest to die but not so for any subsequent M's. Statistics prove this to be the case.<p>Another thing to think about is that unless your W and the OM are committed to affair proofing their M by implementing the principles of MB, their M is just as much susceptible, if not more so, from another A.<p>And one last thing to consider is that most cheaters are a very insecure, jealous bunch (trust me on this one). The lover of a married woman that becomes her next husband will probably live with the very real and gnawing possibility that he too will be the victim of an A. <p>OM chastised you for being a controlling man but just wait until he is in your shoes and you'll see who is the real controlling man.<p>Joe

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by justanotherjoe:
And one last thing to consider is that most cheaters are a very insecure, jealous bunch (trust me on this one). The lover of a married woman that becomes her next husband will probably live with the very real and gnawing possibility that he too will be the victim of an A. <hr></blockquote><p>I totally agree with you Joe, but I have some questions regarding insecurity and jealousy. [sorry if I'm veering off to another subject]<p>Although I have never been a very jealous person of my x-H, I see that some people accept that a degree of jealousy is normal behavior in most married couples. <p>So, in a marriage spawned from an A, why would their jealousy be any different or destructive than that of accepted or normal jealousy in a non-A spawned marriage?<p>Jo

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Resilient:
<strong><p>So, in a marriage spawned from an A, why would their jealousy be any different or destructive than that of accepted or normal jealousy in a non-A spawned marriage?<p>Jo</strong><hr></blockquote><p>The difference lies in that the non-A M jealousy is a reaction to a perceived threat, but in the A M the jealousy is from an actual event.<p>Both can be destructive, but just like fear, jealousy can serve a useful purpose in that it can save a marriage if there is an attempt on both spouses to understand what is causing it.<p>Since it is a wideheld consensus that affairs are just like falling in love, the cheating individuals live in a fantasy world which ends the moment they decide to marry each other.<p>Sometimes the best revenge is to just watch what a nightmare those A-based M's become when one or both start distrusting one another.<p>Joe<p>[ January 31, 2002: Message edited by: justanotherjoe ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by justanotherjoe:
Sometimes the best revenge is to just watch what a nightmare those A-based M's become when one or both start distrusting one another.<hr></blockquote><p>One can only hope ... I'll have a grand stand seat booked for my x-H's, if he indeed marries the abusively natured Vulture.<p>Jo