FYI, my story is posted under "anyone else married to an addict"<p>Last night, I got a letter from H. Things have been going pretty well, except for the images he keeps seeing in his mind. In his letter he wrote, "every night I pray for God to forgive you, because I don't know if I ever can". At 1st, I understood his not being able to forgive me, but now I'm having a really hard time with it. I need for him to forgive me. He is an alcoholic & when this affair happened, I really felt & I still do, that I was cheating on the drunken a**hole that I was married to. If he was really here I would've never done this. I don't know how to make him understand this. I can live with him not forgiving me for hurting him. What I can't live with is no forgiveness at all. I need him to forgive me for cheating on the person he was when he was drinking. I was truely dealing with 2 different people. The drunk one, I hated, & the sober one that I love more than life itself. Only problem was the last few months he was home, only the drunk one was there. I lost the man I married for a long time, now I'm lucky enough to have him back & I hate myself for what I did to him, but I wasn't doing it to HIM when the A was going on. Can anyone understand this? I feel so lost. I need some kind of forgiveness, I can wait for it, this has all just come out to him, but at some point in the future, I need that.

Does he have a Christian counselor or religious leader he can talk to about forgiveness?<p>Forgiveness is an action. You do it. And then you don't let the things you have forgiven stand in your way. You don't stay angry...because, unforgiveness is anger, and prolonged anger leads to bitterness.<p>You also may want to work on forgiveness, as your talk about who he was sounds very bitter. And, he is that person, that is part of him, even if hopefully it is now part of his past.<p>A blanket forgiveness doesn't work for everyone, for me there was so much...7 separations & a long A don't leave anyone in very good shape. So, I knew I wanted to forgive my H and made a list of everything I could think of that had hurt or still hurt...got quite angry about it....and forgave those things. So those things passed out of things I had to deal with. Then, as I was triggered, it was usually something that hadn't been on the first list, and I'd repeat the forgiveness as needed.<p>I told my counselor that sometimes I felt like things that my H did "stirred the pot". He said "empty the pot".<p>Neither you or your H can change one thing that you have already done. Let it go.

I am trying to "let it go", but he makes it very hard. He just doesn't understand what he put me thru. I didn't walk out of some perfect happy marriage & cheat. It was after years of dealing with an alcoholic. I understand, now that it was the alcoholism more than it was him, but I was beaten down over & over for years & years. I couldn't handle it anymore. He says "but you don't sleep with someone else when your married". Well, he is right. But you know what, you don't lie & cheat & steal & do whatever you want to do with no reguard for what it's doing to anyone else either & that is exactly what he did to me. I have not forgiven him yet, I really think that someday I will be able to do that, but it's going to take time & I know it's going to take him time to forgive me. I'm willing to wait, but I need to know that it's going to happen one day. For 9 years, I have stood by his side, suffered with him thru the alcoholism, the jail time, everything. I didn't do a damn thing to deserve that, but I suffered because of it anyway, because I love him. Should anyone have to suffer like that just because they love someone? Why can't he see that? I don't know what to do for him. I have taken responsibility for what I've done. I was trying to be supportive, & help him get thru this, but I don't know if I can do that if he can't take responsibility for what he has done. I really feel like I'm just losing it here. I don't know what to do. I'm sorry to go on & on with this, it's just really bothering me. Letting it all out helps a little, but not enough. Thanks for "listening".

Chelle,
I'm sure I didn't say any of what you've gone through is fair. All you can do is take responsibility for your own actions, your decisions. You can't make your H forgive you, no matter what he did that you feel led you to be unfaithful. You can forgive him. <p>You can also choose not to be there for him anymore.<p>But if you want to do your part--the only part in your control--to restore your marriage, then blame & unforgiveness will not help you heal.<p>I can't tell you that someday it will all work out. No one can. But I can tell you that stewing about the past isn't the way to the future. Nor is worrying about the future. The future may never come. All we have is today. What can you do with it?

Lor, no you didn't say what I've gone thru is fair, I didn't mean to imply that. I know all this anger & resentment isn't helping anything. I thought I had, for the most part put it behind me. But, it's all just came rushing back. I don't know what to do with all these feelings. I feel like he doesn't understand, at all, what I've been thru. I need him to understand that, so I can forgive him, So it will never happen again. I don't know, I don't know, thats all I keep thinking. This is all so hard, so confusing. I'm really just venting here. I need to get this anger out, it is consuming me!!! I don't think anyone can understand it, unless they have lived with this disese (alcoholism). It destroys everything & everyone in it's path. Thanks for your input!!

CHELLE,<p>If you don't mind, I thought I might interject a thought. One, have you ever written down how angry you are at your H and why? Two, have you ever written down, not just posted here, how you feel about the two men you are married too? Finally, have you ever written down your marriage vows?<p>I ask these questions for a purpose. Your H will never "understand" what you have been through anymore than I can. He may recall circumstances and then maybe he won't since he was probably drunk. What he can "understand" is your anger at him. He can also "understand" the two men you were married to. The sober one you loved and he hated and the drunk one he loved and you hated.<p>Finally, when you write down the marriage vows, look at them. Fidelity is only one of the vows you two made to one another. How many others were broken by each of you?<p>I have often thought that fidelity is THE MAJOR ONE because it is often THE LAST ONE to be broken. It represents so much. However, it often takes breaking many of the other vows to get to the point of infidelity. Not always, but often.<p>Both you and your H need to review those vows. I suspect that there is a lot of forgiving to do on both sides. I know that your H must do some serious reevaluation of his actions. <p>I am not an expert on alcoholism, but I was under the impression than in most programs to overcome this addiction, that a realization of what the addiction has done to those around you was part of the process. Is that not so in your H's program? If it is, then some of what he says suggests that he has a ways to go before being declared recovered.<p>CHELLE, think about writing some of this down and sending it to him. There is a lot of recovery and healing to be done in your situation. Honesty coupled with knowledge should help the process.<p>God Bless,<p>JL<p>PS: You having Lor to post with you is a very very good thing. She is a very special and knowledgable person.

Chelle,<p>I have often told my H that I want to forgive him and I am working at forgiving him everyday. But I am one of those people for whom 'a blanket forgivenss' does not work. Like Lor, I have a long list of things to forgive, and I need to work through them in order to get to real forgiveness.<p>Would that be enough for you? That your H wants to forgive and is working at foregiving.<p>In addition to the other suggestions, I have a couple. First, are you working at forgiving yourself? You talk about your anger and resentment and the reasons for your A and how they are all wrapped together. What are you doing about foregiving yourself for having the A? Second, are you working at forgiving your H for his alcoholism? It seems to me that since that is the source of your anger and resentment, and the major reason you give for having an A, that figuring out what you are going to do about your lingering anger and resentment is important.<p>JL is right that there are lots of things spouses can do to one another that need to be forgiven in a M and that the A and the behaviors that factored into the A are only some in the list of things on the list, albeit probably the biggest and most difficult to deal with.<p>What about trying to start forgiving the things that you need to forgive and also asking your H for forgiveness for having the A? Asking for forgiveness should not be with the intention of getting that forgiveness immediately, but in order to demonstrate that your H's forgiveness is important and know that it is a process that may take some time. Others quote the Bible far better than I, but the Bible talks about asking for forgiveness for the same sin many, many, many times over. I guess in part asking for forgiveness is a sign of remorse and a part of repenting.<p>Good luck.

Just learning,
I have written so many letters to H. I've tried to explain things. I'm going to visit him tomorrow (I also put a letter in the mail this morning) to talk about all this. I really want to work thru it all. I have written our vows out, a few years ago, but things weren't so bad then. Maybe I should do that again. I know, a lot of them were broken. There is a lot of forgiving to do, on both sides. I am willing to do that, but it seems to me, he is not. I can't live with the resentment & anger from him for the rest of my life, I can't live having this thrown back in my face whenever something goes wrong. I feel like he thinks, because of what I've done, he is somehow absolved of his mistakes & that just isn't so. I really need to talk to him about all of this. His being in there just makes it harder. He can (& does) call me every day, but we only have 15 mins. what can you talk about in 15 mins.? I know he still has a long way to go in his recovery, he admits that too. like I said, all these feelings just came rushing back to me, out of nowhere. I haven't felt all this anger towards him since just before he "went away". I'm not sure where this is all coming from. I had thought things were getting better, but latley he has been doing worse, emotionally,& now I am also. I'm just kind of lost right now. Hopefully we will be able to work thru some of this during our visit. He asked me to put myself in his shoes, which I do, every day, I need him to do the same, I don't think he has ever done that. He has no idea the pain & suffering he has caused me in the past. I am trying to concentrate on the fact that it is the disease, not him & I know thats true, he really had no control whatsoever, I saw that when he was home. He is a good person, when he's sober. But you know, I'm a good person too, I just made a really BIG mistake, & I will regret that for the rest of my life.<p>Thanks, Chelle

One day, Sorry, I missed your post the 1st time. I CAN wait for his forgiveness. God knows he's gonna have to wait for mine. I just want to know that it's coming. I am sorry for what I did & I tell him that all the time. I try to reassure him, that I love, need & want him & only him. And that I want to "fix" things between us. All I have been doing latley is trying to help him cope, I haven't even really brought up his mistakes (not since I told him about the A & how & why it happened). He doesn't even say he wants to forgive me, he just says he doesn't know if he can. I don't see how we can have a happy, healthy marriage, if he doesn't. I am working to forgive myself & him, I WANT to do that. I think it's going to take me a long time to forgive him, it took many years for the anger & resentment to build up & it's gonna take a while for it to go away. I have asked him for his forgiveness, all I hear is "I don't know", all I want to hear (at this point) is "I'll try". Am I asking too much?<p>Thank you all for your advise/opinion. I felt like I was just going to explode, this morning, I'm feeling much better, now that I've been able to get some of this out of my system.

I need him to understand that, so I can forgive him,<p>Need all you want but that doesn't mean it is going to happen.<p>From Dr Phil http://www.oprah.com/phil/advice/phil_advice_forgive.jhtml<p>"Forgiving Others<p>Forgiveness means to say 'I will not hate you any more.' You don't need to be controlled by that any more.'<p>Remember Life Law #7: "Life is managed, not cured.". It's a step you have to take every day.<p>Ask yourself: What would happen if you forgave him, and forgave yourself for not being enough?<p>Forgiveness is about you. It's about you withdrawing your feelings and not being locked in a bond of hatred. Questions of right and wrong have nothing to do with it. If we make fairness a basis for forgiveness, we're going to be at war with the people in our lives for the rest of our lives. Is the other person worth it?<p>Remember: Anger changes who you are, and it can absolutely define who you are. Anger is such a strong and destructive emotion it can dominate every action, every exchange with people in your life. Any time you see someone carrying anger, it's nothing more than an outward sign of hurt, fear or frustration. Forgiveness can help you release the anger, and bring those in your life closer to you."<p>[ February 01, 2002: Message edited by: Chris (CA123) ]</p>

I think the people that can't forgive are the ones that don't TRULY want to own up to their part of what's happened in the relationship. The more they hold onto their anger at YOUR actions, the less they have to feel guilty or take responsibility for THEIR OWN. Remaining angry at you is only a way of keeping the spotlight off of themselves and a way of avoiding responsibility for what they've contributed to the situation.

This site on Radical Forgiveness is well worth a look.

Towards the future,
You said it!! That seems to be exactly what my H is doing. Everyday that passes, his attitude gets worse, he gets angrier. This was a really bad weekend for us. He doesn't seem to want to try to understand what I went thru that pushed me to the point where I cheated. He says he can "fix" whats he has done by being a better H in the future, but I can never fix what I've done by being a better wife in the future. Well I'm sorry, but he can never fix what he has done either. Years of not being a husband to me, of always putting the alcohol 1st, he treated me like crap, for years!!! But thats ok in his eyes, because he can blame the alcoholism. Well the alcoholism had a lot to do with what I did too. I lived it for years also. I just can't understand his way of thinking. I'm about ready to just give up. He refuses to try to understand my feelings. He actually had the nerve to tell me that I don't hurt or feel bad over what I've done. Who does he think he is to tell me how I feel? I don't know how we can go on if he can't try to understand. I even told him, maybe I've been pushing to hard, to get thru the bad stuff, because it's been over in my mind for a while & it's still very fresh in his mind. I swear, if I didn't know better, I'd think he was drinking again. He's got that same me, me, me attitude again. The same attitude he had when he was drinking. I don't know what to do with him anymore. [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img]

Dear chelle...<p>Welcome to the rollar-coaster...one that you obviously have been a long time ticket holder to...but it is not over yet...<p>There is a lot "junk" and emptiness in your husbands letter...and I think you need to seperate yourself from some of his verbage...
One because it protects you...as you appear to be taking what he says as if it holds great truth and meaning...and this man does not appear to be far into being a recovered alcoholic so quit believing what he says when most of it is really just a shifting blame away from himself...onto you...
Your husband was able to avoid responsibility when he was drunk...for a long time..
Now he avoids responsibility by using his alcoholism as an excuse...how conveiniant.
I think the fact that you had an affair is just his "great soap box out"..and if you had not had an affair he would be attacking some other issue/flaw/action you committed to avoid his own reality.
(NOT to diminish the hurt an affair causes).
Even the first line in his letter to you is bogus...the part about praying to God to forgive you..cause he is not sure he EVER can...Newsflash!! God has and will continue to forgive all of us for our actions when we are truly sorry and avoid the sin as you appear to be...Gods forgiveness is not your husbands to give...unless I missed that part in the bible/church [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] And so what...God will forgive your husband for all his drunkenish crappy behavior...but not yours...sheeesh...
I am not sure if your husband in AA but if he is he appears to have skipped that HUGE step of seeking out and apologizing to those he hurt with his addiction....huge huge huge step...some say the hardest as it is the one that has people look at and own the pain their actions have caused...
Don't let this disease be an excuse for his bad behavior..while at the same time expecting it not to have impacted yours and bad decisions you made in the past...so he was the only one entitled to "mess up" because he drank?
Quit beating yourself up for there is a time for everything..and this may not be the time...I question if your husband is even capable of making and keeping promises at this time...I question that if he were to be totally repentant to himself and you..if he is really sincere..or even emotionally strong enough to do so...He has a lot of demons to resolve within himself..before he gets to you...
I warn you ..the more painfully clear how destructive he was..the more he may initially blame you...don't fall for it...don't excuse it..
Don't get caught up in the word game and don't treat his ramblings as gospel...
You are a good person
You have done a wrong...but you are far ahead in dealing with this whole issue as you can atleast admit it...
Be good to yourself...
and tighten that seat belt....
ARK

Chelle96,
I just wanted to add a "pick me up" to your story. It's unfortunate that your H has a serious problem of his own to deal with. Unless he takes responsibility for himself I don't know if your M can get any better.
I can't relate to all your circumstances but I am a WS too so I know how you feel.
Do all you can but you can only do "so much" for your H.
Brw
[img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Ark,
I am trying not to take what my H says as the truth. I am trying to understand his feelings. But he is not trying to understand mine, & that is where the problem is. I don't have to believe what he says or thinks, but it is important to our relationship & dealing with this whole situation. You are right, he is not very far along in his recovery, and he is shifting blame, just like he used to when he was drinking, that is scaring me. I'm seeing the drunken side of him again, except that he's not drunk. He is in AA & he mentioned step 9 (about apologizing) in that same letter about not forgiving me. "I realize now what I've put you through, I'm sorry, etc., etc." Like that makes it all better. He has no idea what he put me thru, cause he was drunk thru all of it. You can't live the way I lived with him & come out mentally healthy. His alcoholism made me sick too, & he can't seem to grasp that concept. I'm not falling for his blaming game. I have taken responsibility for what I've done. I can't do a whole lot to make up for it while he is in there. But I'm doing all I can. I know God will forgive me & I told him that. He said to me, "I don't even know if this is all worth it" Does he think I never thought that same thing? I have, countless times, over the years, dealing with him. I just hope he changes his attitude soon, cause I don't know how much longer I can deal with this, I don't know if it's worth it either, if he's gonna keep treating me this way. He seems to have forgotten, I'm the one who took all the "abuse" from him & because of his actions all those years he spent drinking. I realize I was never perfect, but I tried. He even told me that I've never really done anything wrong in our relationship, up untill now, beside little things, but nothing major. He confuses the he** out of me, he's always been good at that!!!
Thanks Ark!!!!

Chelles.<p>Don't beat yourself up in trying to make him see or feel things your way....he can't right now..he can't even see himself in these things and any role he might have played..If I'm correct he's in jail even as we type this...so obviously he's not perfect...<p>Expect that behaviors and traits that got him this far in life will still be present with or without the alcohol...Don't be scared...know that's who he is right now...he can change...but not yet..still to early...
get to Alanon...and I will bet you will find a lot of people who have been where you are and feel as you do..
In fact there are people who actually liked their loved ones better when they were still drinking...as they atleast know what they are in for and who it is they are dealing with...
you are in a huge transition just in supporting someone who has quit drinking...
How long you can take it is up to you..but I would suggest to make it easier on you don't even attempt to get him to see your side of things..and if he is disrespectful and accusing and hateful...walk away...he needs to stew about things..and you've hung in there this long..so no doubt he just assumes you'll put up with more....but as he's allowed to change..and become "better"...so are you...
I also wouldn't put a lot of energy into trying to understand his feelings..what he feels this minute..will change the next..and not even to mention tomorrow.
He hasn't even begun to really apologize for his actions...for it is not as simple as just asking...he will internalize it as some point and seek true forgiveness at some point...and you will know when he is sincere...if he doesn't there will come a point when you no longer care and can walk away knowing you did all you could....
Plan A yourself...strengthen yourself against his empty onslot about how wrong and bad you were/are....
get help for yourself...know that you are good inside and out...
I think the sober man you love is in there somewhere...he needs to find his way back to you...and he can..it takes time...but that doesn't make it hurt less...
Love that three year old to pieces..and be glad he's no longer a two year old..(as mine is driving me bonkers...even as I type) [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]
ARK

I think if he calls tonight, I'm going to tell him we both need some "time off" from each other. I'm going to tell him not to call for a week or 2 & that I won't be coming to see him this weekend. This is all new to me, anyone think this is a bad idea? Why? I just don't know what else to do. I can't listen to his selfish attitude anymore, it's like the drunk is back again.

Ark,
Again thanks! I guess you pretty much answered the question in my last post, about taking time off. Things were going so well, up until a week ago. We were having some really good talks, very calmly, no yelling or fighting. Now it seems things are just falling apart. That's what has left me feeling so lost. I think we definitly need time to ourselves. He doesn't seem to want to listen to me anymore (which is fine if thats what he needs right now) and I sure as hell don't want to hear him blame me & tell me how I feel anymore!! So maybe, hopefully, that will do us some good. As for al-anon, I went to my 1st meeting last week, & I'll be there again tomorrow night. I'll tell ya though, I wish they had a "alcoholic-spouse-in-jail-anon". Thankfully for the people there (the ones I've met so far) they don't have anyone in jail. That kind of makes things harder for me too. There arn't too many people out there who husband is in jail, or atleast not many that will admit it, I know I tend to keep it secret in certian situations. But, al-anon does still help! Thanks for all you advise. A lot of my old anger & resentment has suddenly started coming to the surface again & it makes it hard to think clearly.

Your H is in rehab, right? Does he have a program? Is he working the steps? Has he done #4 and #5, about resentments and what role he played in their formation? Has he done #8 and #9 where he enumerates all of the wrongs he has visited upon others and apologizes and makes amends? <p>We alcoholics are a cynical bunch at times, especially about each other. I can't judge him, but it sounds to me like he may be dry but he's not getting really sober. We learn to work on ourselves. We learn to forgive. Above all, we learn that nothing, but nothing, will cause us to slip back to our old ways faster than forming and holding resentments. Resentment (or hate) is the only substance in the world which destroys the vessel that holds it.<p>Do you go to Al-Anon? It would be of enormous help to you while struggling to deal with life with an alcoholic partner. I do wish you well. I hope you find the courage and strength to take positive action for your own life. You can't live his; he shouldn't be allowed to dictate yours. If your husband really does get SOBER, there's definitely a chance. If he refuses and won't release his resentments, there's no chance for him with anyone. And he won't be dry very long.<p>One day at a time. You CAN make it. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]