I guess this is just the same'ol, same'ol. I hate doing these posts because I know what the advice is going to be and I'll have trouble following it and just get more discouraged. This is sort of an explanation of some bitter replies (in retrospect) I'd made on Cali's post last week.<p>I want to feel chosen. I feel committed to, just not chosen. I'm certain my W loves me, is glad she married me, wants to stay that way, loves our family... I just don't feel that she needs to spend much time with me. <p>To put this in perspective, she accepts affection and she gives affection (spontaneously) on those times when she is mentally present. This is a huge change from the last 10 years, when she would openly reject any affection from my direction and never return it.<p>We've been doing date nights occaisionally, but they really only last a couple of hours. She wants to return home quickly and once we do her attention drifts away from me pretty quickly. I'm finding that I'm not interested in putting out any effort to get that result. But... then I wonder if I'm only interested in putting out effort to get a certain result? How much of the way I'm feeling has to do with controlling her??? (or my lack of control??)<p>I think I'm done with my teenage boys (13,15). This has been building for a while. I can't be around them anymore. They want, want, want... half the time the answer is no, and then all heck breaks loose. I can't deal with that anymore. They have no empathy, so no line of reasoning I give them makes any sense to them. I think lack of empathy is a teenage trait, so probably not their fault specifically... but I don't care.<p>I try not to be around them, I don't ask them to do anything anymore... unless my W makes me. It seems pointless to even talk about punishment or consequences. The consequence is that they have destroyed my lovebank and I'm treating them like strangers. I know this dumps a lot on my W, but I don't care about that either.<p>I still have Christmas presents for my siblings sitting on the dining room table, waiting to go out. They've been boxed and waiting to be UPS'ed for about 2 weeks.<p>At work I'm preparing a proposal asking for research support. It requires me to put what I want to do in some sort of global perspective, ya know- how this particular project fits into my career goals. What career goals??? Clueless. I'm unable to even fake this, just so I can get paid.<p>Is that enough stuff?<p>Jeffers

DON'T have an affair!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<p>Jeez, jeffers, tough stuff, disowning your kids (so to speak) and saying so in black and white for all the world to see....but, very honest.<p>Been there done that with the teenage kids, a couple of mine are very hard cases too. Anything you try to do with them is a struggle, whether it is "fun" or chores, or just simple conversation, and I have "disowned" em a couple times myself, am trying to apply MB to that too, with a little success.<p>Just popping in, will try to comment more later...but one recommendation pickup Dr. Phil Mcgraws life strategies book (and workboodk) and DO it, it will help you figure out you some...if I had to guess, I would say your life is not what you want it to be, and are realizing pretending it should be isn't going to work (one of the problems with MB stuff, it cannot gaurantee results, but it seems too, then we feel we are defective when it doesn't)... also maybe time for a career change, maybe what you really want to do is open a restaurant or something, I dunno.<p>[ February 04, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

jeffers,<p>i don't remember all your story, sorry. I sort of hit and miss story lines but your W is the WS right.<p>what you said about your teenagers. I understand. Sometimes I am so close to telling my OS just go live with your dad. He, my OS, has no clue what all I did, have done and yet it still didn't save my marriage. And now I live somewhere I didn't want to live because I thought it was in OS best intrest, the funny thing now I don't think it was.<p>However what I really wanted to say, my STBX, when he was staying only for the boys, he was resenting them big time and it was starting to show. His relationshiop with both boys 17 1/2 and almost 10 has improved quit a bit since we seperated. Don't get me wrong both boys in different ways hold it against him for his A and living with OW. They just put up with her, but she does have a lot in common with OS (she is just about half away between OS age & STBX's age)but he never forgets who and what she is.<p>if you are feeling this bad, you need a break. you need to do something. you need help.<p>if STBX hadn't make the choices he made, I would have had to do it soon, none of us could live like we were living without some type of change<p>i didn't want a divorce, still don't really but you can't live in limboland forever without it taking major tolls on you. been there done that and would not advise anyone to do it for a long period of time. I did it for a little over 2 yrs and it was hell, well the last yr was.<p>Snl gave you some good advice. read Dr. Phil's bk, they do help. think I will go dig out my copy, I am just not good about doing that kind of stuff on my own.<p>good luck with whatever you chose to do

It sux... doesn't it... don't you wonder where all your dreams went? Why aren't things turning out the way you thought they would?<p>Who's in control jeffers? What's the purpose? Are those the questions I keep hearing from you? Discontent... Frustration... Ambivilence... <p>I was just talking about this with H last night... <p>I'm not a deeply, overtly religious person... but I have a deep, abiding faith... I've always felt 'held' during the hard times in my life, have had so many prayers answered, and some 'miracles' as well that I can't shake God out of my life... He just is... and He speaks deep inside me... always I look for what I am supposed to learn... what is He teaching me... even through this A stuff... what am I supposed to be learning...<p>Well, after reading "Secrets of the Vine" and listening to my H... for me it is control and God's will... <p>I don't know if we've ever discussed spirituality... but that's where it is for me... I keep resisting God's will for me and situations keep arising which show me that I HAVE NO CONTROL...<p>Now as for your teenagers... adolescence is a very egocentric stage... think 2 years old in a big body...<p>All you can do is set up house rules and STICK BY THEM... this is from a very good parenting program called The Parent Project...<p>http://www.parentproject.com/ (found it!)<p>Once you have house rules and everyone knows them... you set up consequences... consequences must fit the 'crime' and must be 'short' term in length... The best consequences is to take away kid's stuff... start small and work up big...<p>We had to come up with a list of the kids' most important stuff and you take it away for a short period of time... one item at a time... YOU NEVER TAKE AWAY THE WHOLE LIST UNLESS IT IS SOMETHING HUGE!!!<p>Never argue with them... you're not gonna win... be as emotionless about consequences as possible... just say "I love you... but these are the rules... and these are the consequences..."<p>I will see if I can find a link... I don't even know if they have a website...<p>The class was 10 weeks long and it was fabulous!! There were some parents w/ some really outta control teenagers who were able to see some real change and they attained some peace of mind...<p>Hugs,
Cali<p>[ February 04, 2002: Message edited by: Cali ]</p>

SnL,<p>Affair? <p>Well, I don't spend any time in mixed company - except here. I can see the attraction though, something to distract me from "real" life.<p>Disowning, hmmm, I don't know if it's that severe...<p>I've just reached the point where I think there is nothing I can teach them, that they are open to anyway. I'll still take part in civil conversation/activities, but the minute things start to veer, I'm outa there. If they ask me for things now it's either yes, or no. Usually after no I leave the room. I'm just not interested in discussing why's or anything anymore, if I want to do something, I do, otherwise, take a hike.<p>I've been thinking about how to apply MB to kids as well. But... you can't Plan A cuz they happily suck you dry, and...you can't Plan B cuz you're responsible for them. So, about the only thing I figure I can do is limit LBs. They can't LB me if I don't stick around for their abuse, and I don't LB them if things don't escalate until we scream at each other. What a sucky solution.<p>Guess I'll make a visit to the bookstore. Career change - I've been considering possibilities. Just that I don't have any feelings about something I'd rather be doing. I don't want to do anything right now. I feel like I just want to be left alone. But... I don't feel like I'm much of a contributing member of society right now and going off alone doesn't help that feeling.<p>sing,<p>My story: W had internet EA (6-12 months?), ended last summer some time. She disputes my interpretation of things. I don't put it in my tag line because I don't think it represents my "real" problem. I also encourage my W to read here.<p>I am feeling bad, I think that this is the only way that I can get a break. 15 yo was better this weekend (we went backpacking with BSA group). He was semi-civil getting ready (13 yo had the meltdown and didn't go). He ignored some of my suggestions in preparation and I avoided his attempts to get me to solve his problems on the trail. Things turned out o.k.<p>It's a one day at a time thing. It's nice to hear that others have felt the way I'm feeling... and survived.<p>Thanks to you both,<p>Jeffers

Cali,<p>Yep, those are my questions - all the "why" ones. What is my purpose? What is anyone's purpose? Why would I be here if I didn't have a purpose. <p>I've mostly avoided spiritual discussions here (except in the very abstract).<p>I was in sad shape spiritually when I left MI 20+ yr ago. I thought organized religion was so hypocritical - what a crock. I had to move down south before I met lots of truly spiritual people. They don't just attend on Sundays, they live their beliefs every day.<p>You sounded like you were at the same point when you left MI. What is it about MI anyway? ... my brother ended up the same way. <p>There is a song out by Alan Jackson called "Where were you when the world stopped turning?" It asks what you did on Sept. 11. I did alot of the things he listed- reached out to strangers, tried to talk to my family, cried for those who died, "dusted off my bible at home", and wondered what "really mattered". I'm still wondering what really matters...<p>As for the boys- removal of stuff and activities (like computer time) has always worked at some level. For the 15 yo it's now phone time and GF time that are the objects of consequence.<p>It just has gone beyond parent-child stuff. He seems like a POW in his attitude sometimes. Doesn't acknowledge that there are *any* rules that apply to him - unless he agrees with them. All adults are idiots... and evil. This extreme cynicism was just eating me up. <p>When forbidden from computer, locked himself in room with computer and used it anyway.... When his phone time was up W had to pull the phone cord out of the wall to get him off. Basically won't do what we ask unless we're able to *make* him do it. I won't physically *make* him do anything anymore... and W can't. <p>He has taken a "stand". We "made" him get braces - a decision he didn't agree with (what he says now-not true originally). He will not wear his retainer, ever. When he's 18 and recognized by law he'll have the braces taken off. I have no response to this. They are his teeth, after all. This is a choice he'll really have to live with. I'm very bummed out about the money that we couldn't afford to spend in the first place that's now gone.<p>I think that somehow the real world has to be his teacher from now on. If he gets "less" from us (me) then he'll have to manage more on his own devices. Maybe he'll figure out the true worth of things (even rules?).<p>I'll check out the link.<p>Bizarre as this might sound - both boys still come to get hugs and kisses from us before bedtime.<p>Jeffers

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jeffers:
<strong>
Bizarre as this might sound - both boys still come to get hugs and kisses from us before bedtime.<p>Jeffers</strong><hr></blockquote><p>There is a lot of hope for teenage boys who will still come and get hugs & kisses at bedtime.<p>I don't know if or how much your sons know about your W's A but bet they know more than you think and it most likely bothers them.

Jeffers,<p>Cannot address all of your issues, but the one about the teenage boys I do have some experience with. First, you should go read Mark Twain's discussion of his father's learning abilities. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>He discussed how amazed he was at the speed with which his father could learn. When Twain was 17 his father knew nothing, but in only 4 short years his father had learned and mastered so much. Twain marveled. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>You may not know it but your IQ is sinking and will go much lower, but in about 6 years or so you will pushing the genius level again. So hang in there.<p>On a more serious note, lets talk about raising children particularly teenagers. The teenage years are natures way of encouraging us to boot them out of the nest, BUT we are their coaches.
I have done a lot of coaching. I have had very successful teams and teams that quit on me. The secret to this is to NEVER quit on your team. Whether they are winners or losers, you as the coach cannot quit on them. THat is your job to be there no matter what.<p>Just by staying the course and not letting them drive you off you are teaching them some important lessons. They won't admit it, they won't act like it, but like Twain they are watching YOUR LEARNING CURVE. So Jeffers hang in there with the boys. You know the future and they don't. They don't realize that you have been their ages and older, that you see the consequences of their actions. You realize these things so you must not quit on them.<p>Don't hand it off you your W either. THe boys need you whether they know it or not.<p>Hang in there and God Bless,<p>JL

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Cali:
<strong>The Parent Project...<p>http://www.parentproject.com/ (found it!)<p>February 04, 2002: Message edited by: Cali ]</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Thanks for the link. Looks like a great program.

I want to second, third and fourth what Just Learning said...<p>So many 'older' teachers have gone through what you are going through... seems like somewhere in the Junior or Senior year of college or soon after kids (especially boys) seem to have a different perspective on their parents... <p>Parents who have had rocky relationships, suddenly start reporting how wonderful their children are... how great they are doing...<p>I sometimes think that the British aristocracy have something with sending their teenagers to boarding school [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Teenage boys could use a good military school (and I'm hoping someone will 'invent' the truly reversible vasectomy... you know get it when your twelve... reversed upon marriage [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] ...)<p>Cali

Sing,<p>Not sure exactly what they know, but they figured out a lot. 13yo is very nosy and doesn't let things go - he couldn't understand why someone else would send mom flowers on her birthday. Don't know if they noticed what it was doing to me.<p>ooops, I'm late.... gotta go.<p>Jeffers

No advice, but I'll commiserate...<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I'm certain my W loves me, is glad she married me, wants to stay that way, loves our family... I just don't feel that she needs to spend much time with me. <hr></blockquote><p>Change "W" to "H" and I'm right there with you...<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>To put this in perspective, she accepts affection and she gives affection (spontaneously) on those times when she is mentally present. <hr></blockquote><p>My H is very affectionate and loving when he is here mentally. He just spends a lot of time travelling, and then when he is physically here, he is often mentally not here.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>We've been doing date nights occaisionally, but they really only last a couple of hours. <hr></blockquote><p>I think we had a date night in October. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I'm finding that I'm not interested in putting out any effort to get that result. <hr></blockquote><p>I decided I was thru making dates for us, and it was his turn to do so. He said he would (see above).<p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I think I'm done with my teenage boys (13,15). This has been building for a while. I can't be around them anymore. They want, want, want... half the time the answer is no, and then all heck breaks loose. I can't deal with that anymore. They have no empathy, so no line of reasoning I give them makes any sense to them. I think lack of empathy is a teenage trait, so probably not their fault specifically... but I don't care.<hr></blockquote><p>I'm lucky here, at least my kids and I get along well.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>The consequence is that they have destroyed my lovebank and I'm treating them like strangers. I know this dumps a lot on my W, but I don't care about that either.<hr></blockquote><p>I never really thought about parental love running out, esp. thru more-or-less normal tennage cr*p.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I still have Christmas presents for my siblings sitting on the dining room table, waiting to go out. They've been boxed and waiting to be UPS'ed for about 2 weeks.<p>At work I'm preparing a proposal asking for research support. It requires me to put what I want to do in some sort of global perspective, ya know- how this particular project fits into my career goals. What career goals??? Clueless. I'm unable to even fake this, just so I can get paid.<hr></blockquote><p>I have to say, my job is also rather uninspiring to me at this point. But, reading thru your post, you DO sound depressed (which I may be as well). Have you considered that? Not that depression would create all these issues, but it sounds like you are having difficulty summoning the ability to deal with all the challenges you have right now.<p>Hugs--<p>Kathi

Ok, my boys aren't teenagers yet, but I would second the advice about not giving up on them.<p>Are they acting out because they want attention?<p>Are they masking the pain that they have inside about the A and your current relationship with W. Sounds like the oldest one just wants to get away from the pain and hurt and anger, and I wouldn't blame him. He may not know how to deal with it in a healthy way.<p>Have you both talked to the boys about what happened and what is happening? Even if you can't get them to a counselor, or in for family counseling, then maybe you can go to get some ideas.<p>Ther eare also lots of freat books out there about how to raise boys - Raising Cain, adn James Dobson just wrote one - you can find it at any local bookstore or on www.family.org. (Focus on the Family Website) You can also go to any Christian book store and they should have a section on how to talk to and raise teenagers.<p>The kids are really perceptive when it comes to what is going on with the parents. And sometimes it has a negative affect on them, often years later (the stats for kids of divorce are they are learning to deal with it finally 2 years after the divorce) - of course any WS will tell you otherwise. <p>And it doesn't help to have 2 teenagers and parents who are struggling too.<p>Can you have a family meeting to discuss what's going on? <p>My brother - who was spoiled by mom, always tested the rules etc. and who is now 25, says he wishes that my dad and mom would have been more firm with him. That he needed discipline - but my dad never gave it to him - he retreated from conflict.<p>If your boys are still giving hugs at bedtime, then there seems that there is an underlying reason that needs to be looked into - maybe your boys aren't even aware of the exact nature of the problem - maybe they're just angry.<p>Just don't give up on them - get some books. www.smartdicipline.com is another site to check out. There is tons of help and suggestions out there - just like there is for saving marriages - you just have to get educated. They really need you right now.<p>I'm sorry your wife isn't meeting her end of the bargain, but maybe she'll get involved with something like this and the two of you can come together - sounds like she's got something that needs to be explored too.<p>Just my 2 cents. K

I raised a very strong-willed boy whose breaking point was age 14. Taking away one thing never worked for us tho. We had to take it ALL away for 2 days max. Then he unpacked it and put it all away. He had to learn the differences between PRIVILEGES and NECESSITIES of life. I think it taught him more appreciation for us (parents) as well as all "his stuff." I would even pack away his toiletries (hair gel & deodorant) which I buy to show him that he is not automatically entitled to this stuff.<p>I'm sure my son is different from yours. My son is the product of an affair I had 20 years ago. I raised him alone for half of his life. Out of guilt, I indulged him over those years. I never said no and if I did, it would change to yes after he beat me down. I did a poor job of teaching him consequences. If I took away TV, no matter, he would play with his toys.<p>After he physically lashed out at me I knew something had to change. We did what Cali recommended by posting the houserules. Whenever they were broken, his stuff was removed for 2 days.<p>The message I had to get through to him was that I couldn't control HIM, but I controlled his STUFF!<p>As far as your lack of motivation, maybe you need some (mental health) time off, even if it's just one day to do something special for you. Go somewhere you love or go see a movie and just treat yourself??? Make a list of things that need to be done while you are away from it all, then when you come back fresh start tackling your list from #1... which would be to mail out those Christmas gifts!!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Do you think you need some medicine for depression? Don't rule that out...

Hi Just Learning,<p>All your replies seem to come from some huge reservoir of wisdom. I ain't never seen one that didn't teach me sumpin. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I'm a BSA leader, so I get to experience other kids of similar age first hand, and work with their parents as well. My kids are out on the edge of the curve (but maybe not too far). Other parents with older kids have told me the same things-- I thought they were jokes, so I would always laugh. ....of course, other things I used to think were jokes have happened to me too....<p>I feel like a yo-yo, always going up and down. Lately, it's just been lower than I remember being. I really am looking forward to the time when their relationship with me improves... I know that my relationship with my father became a lot better almost the instant I left the house. My memory is that things were really bad around 16, but better by my senior year in HS. My younger sister was the one who caused grey hairs with her live her own life attitude (pregnant at 16, married, divorced by 17?).<p>I keep repeating, "The sun is warm, the grass is green."<p>
Cali,<p>I will readily admit that my kids are great kids- when seen from an external perspective. That's why stepping back from them a bit might help me.<p>One of my favorite series of books, Darkover, by Marion Zimmer Bradley, has fostering of teens as one of the "normal" facets of the aristocracy. I had trouble seeing how parents could do that to their kids, but I think I'm understanding now.<p>Teens as couples, YIKES!!! <p>Teens kissing, EEEEKKK!!! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>We're going through that now.<p>Every time one of those public service commercials comes on about smoking or drugs, W runs around the house asking the kids if they know anyone who smokes or does drugs (daily). She's great at keeping connected with them.<p>Jeffers

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jeffers:
<strong>Every time one of those public service commercials comes on about smoking or drugs, W runs around the house asking the kids if they know anyone who smokes or does drugs (daily). She's great at keeping connected with them.<p>Jeffers</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I would so love to tell my OS that, he thinks I am the only pshcyo mom, who worries about that ALL the time according to him. <p>you are right about getting better by SR yr, my OS is a JR and I say the last month has been better, but then he has had a very rough 3 yrs, this is his 3rd HS, thanks to his screwed up parents<p>you have heard about the terrible 2's lasting till they leave for college haven't you? <p>and the teenage yrs are so awful so you are GLAD for them to leave home<p>and yet I have to admit my heart grew lighter when my OS said he is thinkging about going to jr. college for 2 yrs, (don't know if he thought about that it means he be here for another 2 yrs)

Kam,<p>I used to be the one that was not present physically, or mentally. Now I guess I get to see what it feels like.<p>I wonder about the parental love thing. Is it really possible to not love your kids. I guess I'm getting to the point that I just don't want to do anything for them anymore. I mentioned to my W with other night (after she told me about the braces thing) that they were turning into people that I just didn't like and I found that very sad.<p>Moms seem to be immune to this, maybe it's just dads and boys? When I get home I'm often coming into the middle of a conflict that's been going on all afternoon. W seems to be able to fight with them daily and not be personally affected by it the way I am.<p>Depression. Hmmm. That thought had crossed my mind briefly. I guess I've refused to consider it seriously for some reason.<p>
God is in Control,<p>The oldest has always had a big chip on his shoulder (since elem school). Him against the world. KGarten teacher tried to pidgeon hole him as ADHD. We got a psychologist eval that basically said that was a bunch of cr*p- he was highly gifted and bored to tears. Psycologist warned us that he would always have an overdeveloped sense of "fairness". <p>He rebels strongly against anything he sees as unfair, almost oblivious of consequences. We thought this was a good thing at first, but as he got older his definition of fair turned out to be anything he wanted to do and anyone who disagreed was being "unfair". <p>Sadly, punishment and consequences just serve to convince him even more that he was right, cuz we have to use power to get our way, since we are unable to use reasonable arguments to show him where he is wrong. I'm trying to find ways to not have conflicts at all.<p>Counseling is a tricky question. W is against it- at least she was when I suggested it for US last spring. 15yo treats any adult who tries to tell him anything as the enemy, I don't think a counseler would have any better luck. I could be really wrong, though.<p>They all see W and I loving each other now. We hold hands when we go places. We cuddle at home (sometimes). 15 yo said "parents aren't supposed to do THAT" (cuddle). At least he noticed.<p>BtDt,<p>We were almost at another breaking point about 5 years ago (at least I was). OS was getting more and more violent- breaking stuff in his rages. I was at the point of calling police. He broke the floor in his room in one rage and something must have clicked at that point. He did a 180 and seem to calm down a lot.<p>We've thought about "stuff" management, but they don't have much stuff. The small amount they do have they've actually bought with their own money. Mostly we have common family stuff- TV, computer, phone, nintendo- and that's it.<p>The big things we give them are opportunities, and ourselves. The opportunities (music, sports, BSA) tend to be enriching (from our POV) and fun. They know that these are things we want them to do and they're willing to not do them just to get back at us. I guess I've gotten to the point that I'm willing to let go of trying to "enrich" them anymore if the cost to me is too high. Ya know, snipping the strings that they control me with.<p>I will seriously think about the depression thing. I'm sure my EAP covers that kind of counseling (and meds).<p>Jeffers<p>P.S. Feeling a little better now. Thanks.<p>[ February 05, 2002: Message edited by: jeffers ]</p>

sing,<p>I have huge respect for parents who aren't afraid to get into their kids lives. <p>My W is a professional when it comes to that. She has a child dev. degree, I think as much to be a mom as to teach. She has a gift when it comes to kids. We used to joke that she would get them into school and then it would be my turn. But, she didn't stop there, she just kept reading and following them... Even their friends are comfortable with her and will tell her stuff. She knows what going on with our kids!<p>Our kids mostly followed the book. Terrible twos ended at three, then fours were another experience, etc. Most of the book advice worked pretty well. Amazing how many parents don't know what to expect. Teen years are turning out to be as bad as everyone said... I just didn't believe them.<p>I'm glad to hear that things have settled down a little for you. When I first came to MB you were having real problems. People really do survive this stuff.<p>Jeffers

Jeffers,<p>The boys are into BSA? Have they done any high adventure outings? It might just what OS and even YS may need. I have been on a few with my sons and their troop. It was very sobering for more than a few of them to realize that if they mess up, that Dad or the other adults may not be able to save them. <p>Interestingly, after a few days of this you could see the difference. They started to focus on the "important" things. I mean you only mess around so much until you see a bear up close or are kayaking in 33 degree water and realize that you have very little time to get out of the water.<p>I do think that Dad's have more trouble with sons than Moms and the converse with daughters and Moms and Dads. I also know that when boys hit the teenage years they want to challenge you. I once told my W to watch our oldest when he turned 13. I predicted he would start to "bump" into me, so test to see if he was as strong, etc. He did exactly that. He wanted to know if he measured up. He lost of course. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] But the testing begins then.<p>They want to know where they are, how they stack up, and if they can win. Each kid does it differently, but it is always there or almost always. So view it as them testing you. They are. <p>You have to become in football palance "an all day sucker." I love that term. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] It means no matter how it goes you are still there for them to deal with and you won't back down.<p>Your sons do sound a bit further out on the curve, but perhaps you can find a way to use that to your advantage. Set up definite "fair" (I hate that term) goals and "fair" consequences for their behavior. Then stick to it.<p>One of my children's Middle school Vice Principle had a code of behavior and punishments. It was developed by the students, parents and the school. When a kid messed up (yup, usually a boy [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ) she called them into the office and asked them to read the list. Then asked them what their punishment would be. Of course they knew the answer, but somehow it didn't seem arbitrary to them. No, way to blame anyone but themselves, because they had all read the rules and punishments and signed that they had read them.<p>Perhaps an approach like that would help with your son. Lots of approaches, but they all require that you become an "all day sucker". [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Finally, you really ought to address what appears to be depression. I think it might help. <p>So hang in there and God Bless You and Your Family,<p>JL

JL,<p>Both boys, independently, asked to do scouting. I joined as a leader after our Scoutmaster promised me I would'nt have to police my own kids. He also promised them that their dad would leave them alone during scout activities. The rationale being that scouts are learning to become independent.<p>I love the "natural consequences" that sometimes occur. Like not bothering to look for gloves when it's going to be cooold. I do a real good job of sticking to my end of the bargain (staying away from them). They do sometimes try to make their mistakes my problem.<p>We're going to Philmont next summer. I resisted originally because a) it's very expensive and b) I didn't believe the boys were showing enough commitment to warrant such a prize. After some discussion about the kind of commitment it would require, and their agreement to the terms, W and I relented. OS has been holding up his end with some complaints, YS has been resisting doing what he said he would do. We've already paid for most of the trip, so at this point leaving someone behind is not a viable option and they know it. I just tell them they made a commitment, and leave it at that. <p>We've had several tuneup trips in the Smokies (and Foothills) so far. We have a pretty good crew overall and I love it. I usually bring up the rear - my boys like to be in front - couldn't be a better arrangement.<p>Testing.... I'm certain with OS it's a battle of wits. I'm also certain, that in his mind anyways, he wins every confrontation. Certainly he has the tools. But, he's a debate competitor, I'm a debate judge!<p>I like the "all day sucker" tag. I don't mind being there at the end of the day, I just don't want to be butting heads during the day as well. Is that just an evening sucker?<p>I'm mulling over your comments about consequences. I do this whenever this topic comes up in other threads as well. I usually think "aren't we already doing that?" Sigh...<p>Well, this turned out a lot longer than I planned.<p>BTW, I did ask our EAP about being evaluated for depression today (via email). We'll see what happens.<p>Jeffers<p>P.S. I also mailed Christmas packages.
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