This is an email sent to me by my husband. I had asked him if he had been honest with her about how I felt about thier relationship. I am having a hard time believing this is just fog. I have another thread Am I Insane? I don't know how to link them. Basically he says I meet all his needs there is nothing they have that we don't except age. He and she are both 42 and I am 29. He says he has more in common with her because of that. Let me know what you think.<p>As I told you OW does not have the mistaken impression that you are pushing me towards her or that you don't care about me. Quite the opposite, she knows that we are best friends and lovers. She knows that our marriage is better than it has ever been and that I am totally happy at home now. She also knows that I love her immensely, that I want to give her every bit of me that I can without taking anything away from you. She seems to understand inherantly that you are just putting up with this out of love for me and respect for my desires and that you are not happy about and do not want it flaunted in your face. She has told me that she doesn't want to take your place as my best friend or primary mate. She loves me and does think of me as her best friend however. She does respect you Lori but she loves me and wants to be with me and I want to be with her. I also respect you. I respect you and love you and like you more than anyone on this earth. I absolutley love our love making. It is indescribably wonderful. But I also love her and like her and respect her and want to be with her and make love to her. I am sorry if that hurts you. I am not trying to hurt you. I don't want to hurt you. I am just going to require that you understand and tolerate my love for her if you want me to love you like I now do. As I told you the dynamics of this relationship are all inter-dependant. You haven't love busted yet but please don't. I love you both but you are my primary mate, friend, and lover. My main obligation is to you and I will continue to feel that way if you will continue to be the understanding, loving, and tolerant woman that you have become. I love you.
Husband

ARGH. im sorry this isnt constructive advice, but your husband is really messed up in his head now even if he doesnt know it.<p>I forget what you posted in the other thread, did you consider or try MC?<p>So would he be jealous if YOU found another guy? no thats not a suggestion in the least. Have you asked him why he married you? At that time what did he see in you, did he really want to spend his life with you alone. What changed? It peeves me how he can try to use MB concepts against you. <p>If I remember right things just started so you are still early into this mess, but remember there is a plan B. Which is kicking his selfish butt out.<p>what in the heck is a primary mate?!
YOU ARE WORTH MORE THAN THAT!<p>[ February 07, 2002: Message edited by: HangingIn ]</p>

lorisue -
I read this and my jaw just dropped. I don't have any sage advice for you, but what I think is that there is a word to describe your H - Cakeater. He wants it all....and you know...he just can't. You are his primary mate - try ONLY mate buddy. Sorry, I'm a bit amazed at your H's attitude and rather toxic fog he is in.
lorisue - you have to decide what is best, but you can't be treated that way, nor do you deserve it.
I hope others chime in with some sensible advice.

This is all crap. He is selfish and wants his cake and eat it too. He loves himself more than he loves either one of you and he wants his way. His words are all lies - take away his words and look at his actions - do you think he loves and respects you or her? I think he needs a dose of reality - Plan B. Read "Love must be tough" by James Dobson. This situation will not change - he is completely happy with the way things are. Unless you shake it up a bit with a different Plan.
--------------------------------------------------------This statement is a threat and manipulation: <p>My main obligation is to you and I will continue to feel that way if you will continue to be the understanding, loving, and tolerant woman that you have become.
--------------------------------------------------------
You have to love yourself enought NOT to put up with this. There is a good chance if you let him go he will come groveling back. But right now he has no reason to change. He is happy with both of you.

I know all of this. Our marriage was so awful before I feel like I need to do a good plan A first though. If I leave now it will only be a week of good thoughts and 7 years of fighting and hating each other. I am going to try and stick it out longer because I feel like if I can leave him with a lot of good memories he will be more likely to come back. I think the power of having 2 women will wear off when she gets tired of being second and starts wanting more. As you can tell he doesn't like to be told what to do or be pushed to do ANYTHING. I know this so I have the upper hand. He may have told her that about himself but she hasn't lived with him for almost 8 years. She has no idea how much it pisses him off when someone tries to tell him what to do or tries to guilt him into something. I do that is why I am going to do this plan a as long as I feel I can. I know that he doesn't mean a lot of what he says. He has only known her 2 months and only met her once. And when he did it was when I had left him to try and think things through. Which I now know was the wrong thing to do but I hadn't read saa yet. They have not had sex yet. So this is mostly made up in his head I think. Once they really get into the relationship I think it will dawn on him what he is doing.

Lorisue:<p>I am so sorry you had to read something like that from someone who promised to love and cherish you. This must be incredibly painful for you. It's amazing what we can handle when we're put in such an awful position, isn't it? <p>I have to agree with the others, tho. Your H definitely has a problem. Unfortunately, he's made it your problem, too. But you are in the driver's seat as far as making your own decision to do what's best for you and your children. It sounds like you'd be helped by getting some councel for yourself first, even if your H won't go. <p>IMO, no matter what words of undying love come out of his mouth, it's obvious by his actions that he has no respect for either one of you, and has no concept of what REAL love is. I agree with the statement that he must love himself more than either of you right now. I know that can change, but he has to get out of the fog first.<p>I'm sorry you're going through this, especially with little ones to consider. You can make it, tho, regardless of the circumstances...be strong.<p>Love in Christ<p>Saved

I'm.....uh.....uh....almost at a loss for words.<p>Well...anyone that knows me knows that that rarely ever happens.<p>Is your WH for real?
My opinion of that letter....it's a bunch of crap.<p>Here's what I got out of it.
As I told you OW does not have the mistaken impression that you are pushing me towards her or that you don't care about me. Quite the opposite, she knows that we are best friends and lovers. She knows that our marriage is better than it has ever been and that I am totally happy at home now. She also knows that I love her immensely, that I want to give her every bit of me that I can without taking anything away from you.
Your WH and the OW know that the OW will get everything from him in the time that he does not spend with you.<p>She seems to understand inherantly that you are just putting up with this out of love for me and respect for my desires and that you are not happy about and do not want it flaunted in your face. She has told me that she doesn't want to take your place as my best friend or primary mate. She loves me and does think of me as her best friend however. She does respect you Lori but she loves me and wants to be with me and I want to be with her. I also respect you. I respect you and love you and like you more than anyone on this earth. I absolutley love our love making. It is indescribably wonderful. But I also love her and like her and respect her and want to be with her and make love to her. I am sorry if that hurts you. I am not trying to hurt you. I don't want to hurt you.
In my opinion he's just trying to make the OW look good....saying she respects you. Neither one of them have respect for themselves....therefor can give respect no nobody else. <p>I am just going to require that you understand and tolerate my love for her if you want me to love you like I now do. As I told you the dynamics of this relationship are all inter-dependant. You haven't love busted yet but please don't. I love you both but you are my primary mate, friend, and lover. My main obligation is to you and I will continue to feel that way if you will continue to be the understanding, loving, and tolerant woman that you have become. I love you
In other words.....please tolerate this A so he can have his cake and eat it too. They are both willing to stay in the position they are in right now.....the OW having him when she can get him and him having the best of both worlds.
With....an underlying threat.....that he will continue to feel love for you as long as you let him continue to do as he pleases.<p>IMHO.....he's using noth you and the OW to get what he wants.<p>This of course will go on like this until you set boundaries. Decide what you will and will not put up with.
Can you really go on living with this man knowing that this is the kind of life that he wants to lead.
Have the wifey at home all understanding while he does what he wants with the OW......it's essentially telling you that this is how he wants it.<p>Your WH has some nerve.

Your patience is astounding. It just sounds like the relationship as gotten very toxic for you. Don't let him think for a moment you remotely believe any of that crap he is spouting is remotely moral. If you are positive that you have not reached your limit, that if of course your call. HOWEVER, make sure you are not sacrificing your own self worth for a second. Draw a clear line for yourself. Plan A is about working on yourself, not being a doormat.

Lorisue,<p>Those words must have really hurt you! I stuck with my WS for 2 years though his infidelities. I have now realized that he never has nor will he ever respect me or our marriage.<p>As long as I allow him to disrespect me and our marriage he will. I've recently made the decision to separate and it's hard because I still love him, but I respect myself and my kids more. I thought I was doing the loving thing by staying in the marriage, but I realize how pitiful I am.<p>As long as you allow your H to act this way he will! <p>I wish you success in your healing and recovery!<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

lorisue,
This is basically a woman's discussion but I will add some support to the comments already made.
1)I would definitly get the book by Dobson already suggested. I just read it and it has a situation very similar to yours in it.
2)I agree with Free2Bme and all the others:You are worth more than that!
Brw [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]

that is the most ridiculous, selfish thing i've ever heard of!! i'm just brand new around here and am wondering if tolerating such disrespect and ignorance from a spouse is NORMAL?? how can there even be a question about whether or not a person should put up with being treated so horribly inconsiderate???<p>i'm sorry if my understanding of the process is unclear...but, what can possibly be the benefit of saving such a relationship or nurturing such behavior??

OK I am not strong enough for plan b yet but where can I find some sample letters to be looking at? I have one in the saa book but would like to read more. I have a hard time standing up to him. I have to be sure that I can stick to my plan if I start it. I am doing amazingly well with plan a. I went from the day before I came home hearing I just don't love you anymore and I don't think I ever did to I love you more than I thought it was possible to love someone so I know that I am getting somewhere. The other woman does not want a full time partner which makes it harder because she is not asking for more than he wants to give, I am. Anyway, I am going to sit tight for awhile. I don't want to give up this quickly. I have only been home for one week.

lorisue,<p>I'm so sorry you're having to go through this - especially while you're pregnant. I've read a lot of stuff here, and I have to agree with many of the others that this is probably the "foggiest" WS talk I have ever heard. <p>Let me ask you a couple of things that will help us help you:
1. How do you know that they've only met once, never slept together, etc?
2. Why did he use the term "love busted"? Is he familiar with MarriageBuilders? Has he/does he come here?<p>Good luck. I'm so sorry you're in this position, but so glad you found MB when you did.<p>AB

He has been painfully honest with me since he came clean. He met her when I left to try and work things out in my head after he told me. They haven't had sex according to Clinton but close enough for me if you get my drift. I am sure that he is being truthful for now anyway. That may change later.
He used the term love busting because I have mentioned saa to him several times. He has promised me that he would read it and has started reading it. He got me a book on polyomery that he wants me to read. I told him I would if he would read mine. He really and truely thinks that this polyomery is what he wants. It means to be able to love more than one person at once and make both relationships work kind of like polygomy but not the marriage part.

I don't want to you to think we are against you in any way. I think we understand your plan and the idea. We just all see how REALLY REALLY REALLY wrong he is treating you. We have a hard time thinking he is worth your efforts because of he is saying and putting you through. BUT of course none of us have lived in your life and we don't know him, just what you write of him. And he really sounds like a confused creep. (no offense)I suppose it does sound like you are making a little progress. But it really does sound like you should be ready with your plan B. <p>Plan B letters.. a few have been posted from time to time as people finalized them you can do a search for "plan B letter" click on the search link on the top of this page and search in the plan A / Plan B section for "plan B letter" you have a few you can read through.<p>Good luck!
-HI

He used the term love busting because I have mentioned saa to him several times. He has promised me that he would read it and has started reading it. He got me a book on polyomery that he wants me to read. I told him I would if he would read mine. He really and truely thinks that this polyomery is what he wants. It means to be able to love more than one person at once and make both relationships work kind of like polygomy but not the marriage part. <p>I'm sorry to put this bluntly....but do you see what your WH is telling you?
I know that sometimes it's hard to see some things outside of our box when we are involved in a situation like this.<p>Your WH is telling you that he wants to keep things like they are. You at home....him with you when he's not with the OW and you are supposed to be happy about it. He has even gone so far as to threaten you with his love....stating that as long as you put up with this he will keep loving you the way that he does now.
He's taking advantage of you and the feelings that you have for him.
The OW not wanting a full time partner just fits right in. She's not going to make any demands on him....she may not even LB......your WH has the best of both worlds and it sounds like he wants to keep it that way....and he wants you to be happy about it.<p>I'm sorry....but through everything that I have been through....and now being in recovery.....I WOULD NOT put up with this crap. He needs to know that there is only ONE person that he can be with. He knows that you don't want to share him.....but somehow he's gotten the idea that he can convince you to be happy about it.<p>I'm not sure what you WH's idea of a realtionship or marriage is......but he definately needs a few lessons.<p>Are you willing to sit at home and act all happy knowing that he is still continuing this with her and expects you to be happy about it and ok with it?
Are you willing to have your children involved in a situation like this?<p>I think your WH needs a HUGE dose of REALITY.<p>Sorry.....but your H just makes me so mad.

Everybody, WHOA!<p>There is really not much true MB advice being given here. <p>I happen to agree with most responders - the WS here is being pretty disrespectful, manipulative, illogical.... In other words, about as fog bound as they come. <p>It is a typical human response to want to punish someone who is behaving as badly as this. But, punishment will not move in the direction of recovering this marriage.<p>Lorisue,<p>Your self respect should not be an issue here. What your H is doing and saying reflects very badly on him and has nothing to do with you. This crap is all about him, him, him. The longer this goes on the more you will lose love and respect for him. Don't confuse that with self respect.<p>Your actions so far have been admirable. You should be proud of yourself.<p>From your comments I think you understand the MB principles. In order to counteract years of bad stuff you need to do a solid Plan A for quite a while-- a week is nowhere near long enough.<p>Plan A is for you to figure out what kind of person you want to be, and then for you to demonstrate (for yourself) that you can be that person even in the face of adversity. <p>Plan B is also about you. It is when you are done. It is a very individual thing. It's not about teaching your H anything, because at that point, YOU ARE DONE.<p>Many posters here, might be done with your H at this point (if he were theirs). Just remember that they are not you and don't have your lovebank or your personal knowledge (and feelings) of this situation. You really have to look at all the advice you get and make sure it will help you achieve the outcome you want. None of us are professionals, so we are all mostly speaking from our own views and situations.<p>I really didn't want to bash anyone or minimize their advice to you.<p>One final thing. Plan A does not require you to agree with your H's views. Plan A is about controlling the things you can control, which is you, and admitting that WS has to find his own way. <p>This is a tough situation for you. One day at a time stuff. We're pulling for you.<p>Jeffers

lorisue,
I agree with jeffers. We may have been a little too judgemental on your situation too quickly. If you have just started Plan A and are comfortable with it then you should continue until such time as you think it doesn't work for you. I commend you for wanting to make your M work. As a WS and a man also, I will say that reading SAA made a BIG difference for me. It wasn't immeadiate but it struck a cord to think about. You may have to have IC to help YOU get through this until your H can see the light.Your right when you say the OW not wanting anything permanant isn't helping but that doesn't mean that will last.
While suggesting the Dobson book, I feel it parallels MB's very closely.
Even in recovery for my W and I, I pointed out your post to her yesterday and said how terrible it sounded and she said "Isn't that really how you wanted it to be?". That really hurt because I wasn't being "that" selfish "I" thought but the reality may have been the same. The point is if you are willing to try I hope your H reads SAA and something gets his attention.
Hang tough!
Brw
[img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

Thanks. I am going to hang in there for awhile more anyway. I don't feel like my doing plan a will have been any good if I give up this quickly. He has to be able to see how determined I am to make this work and think about that when I move onto plan b. He has already been through a divorce with 2 children from that marriage. He knows what it is like to lose children but he knows that he can live with that so I don't think plan b is a good idea for me. Unless I am truely ready to give up on this M altogether.

Hi Lori,<p>I read your H's e-mail. I'm not utterly speechless but I am pretty dog-gone close. That thunk was my jaw hitting the floor. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Can I offer some sage advice given to me from other marriage builders? It is pretty much along the lines of what Jeffers has said. Be the best you that you can be. <p>Dealing with the A along with the loss of a child, being mom to three very young children and a little blessing on the way takes a great deal of strength. You are a very strong woman Lori. You have to stay strong. You can let this A get you down or you can hold your head high and be the best you can. It's your choice. If you choose Plan A instead of polyamory, you have to take care of yourself first and foremost. You can't take care of your lovely babies if you do not take care of yourself first. Be sure you have time to pamper yourself because you need it more now more than ever. In a few short years, you've had to deal with the devasation of the loss of your precious child and now the devastation of being married to a man who thinks polyamory is the way he wants to live married life.<p>Let me tell you the story of an online friend who lived this polyamorous life that I always disagreed with. Her husband fell in love with someone else, basically living between their two households. It was okay with the aduts involved until the OW wanted her H all to herself. They are now divorced. Her H lives with the OW. He is now married to her. My online friend and her kids are struggling each month. I think she is better off without him but look at how devastating this concept of polyamory is to the core of the family- marriage.<p>Lori, what do you want? Do you want a polyamorous marriage? If you are a believer in the marriage builder concepts, then I'm sure the answer to my question is no. If you know that a polyamorous marriage is NOT what you want, then be honest with your H. Tell him, without LBing, that a faithful marriage is the only one your will have. POJA the issue with him. <p>If you have just started with Plan A and want to continue that path as he still sees her, then go ahead. I've been in Plan A for ten months now and it took about half of that time for my H to stop the behaviors in our marriage that I found so offensive. I'm not saying I did not LB from time to time. What happens in Plan A though is after a while, the OP will start to LB your spouse, withdrawing love units from his love bank while you cruise along in Plan A. Hopefully, the affair will die a quiet death. <p>If you do not have Harley's book Surviving an Affair, I would highly recommend it. You both need to read it. It took a good 3 months for my H to even pick the book up and now he has read it cover to cover. I am also reading another book which is helping me and my family immensely. It's called the Power of a Praying Wife. The author of the book recommends starting with a three word prayer that is easy to start with and easy to remember-"Change me, Lord.". <p>On those nights when I knew my H was late from work because he had been spending time with OW, it took a lot of strength not to lamblast him when he came in the door. Instead, I had to force myself to tell him how glad I was that he was home. That strength came from taking care of myself (that include a lot of self-help, including antidepressants) and that included daily prayer (Change me, Lord)and positive self-talk. I've got four young kids myself. I know how devastating this can be to make it through. Stand by your convictions Lori. Even if your marriage does not work out, you can say you are a woman of integrity. You do not have to stoop to his level of sin in your relationship. You know what is best for yourself and your family. I do not. Yet, I think I have a hunch that polyamory is not what you want in your marital relationship.<p>{{{hugs}}}<p>Bluebird