<small>[ February 07, 2005, 09:27 PM: Message edited by: hanora ]</small>

This is one wild story.<p>You are pregnant, and you MUST NOT HAVE SEX OF ANY SORT WITH HIM. Would you risk blindness, or a baby born with Herpes?<p>Read Love Must Be TOugh. Get a life for your self and begin to seperate your lives. I think its absoloutely disgusting that he would even have the balls enough to say this to you. I would be very offended.<p>Dara

This is going to seem like a harsh reply, and I hope it doesn't hurt you.<p>Well I am not alone here in my disbelief about that letter. I know you do not feel strong, but, this man is asking you to just let him have a mistress, or else??? WHAT kind of love is that?<p>I am sorry, but this calls for immediate Plan B to me...he wants you? Let him do the right thing, and dump OW. I would send a CLEAR message that he cannot have both, and if he chooses her, well, really, do you want him anyway? A man with those kind of morals is not a good role model to bring your kids up with.<p>Sorry, but that seems to me to be the most realistic option for me.<p>Love and light,<p>Jacky

I just couldn't believe my eyes, Lourise, that is terrible.
I know this won't do any good, but if my WH ever sent me anything like that I'd answer with some bluffing:<p>Dear WH,
I understand your feelings completely, and seeying the light on poligamism has encouraged me to find a lover of my own, I met this wonderful guy who i love passionately, and who I love to make love to. This doesn't mean I don't love you anymore, I just think our agreement as a couple would work better if both of us get as much attention from peripheral partners as the other.<p>I bet he'd see stars then!<p>(Never mind me though it just really hit me hard in the head!)

Hi Lorisue,<p>You are a strong woman. You need to know that right now you are not dealing with a sane man. <p>Think he would take it if you sprewed the same stuff from your mouth? Hm.... think not. WS' can be very jealous. Now you have and have had a lot on your emotional plate. There are several here that have been in similar situations. <p>You have been given some sane advice and now you need to digest all step back, ponder and bit and rest. <p>Your H is out in la la land thinking that stinkin' ow is some great thing. Of course she will babble all that stuff and if he dumb enough to believe it, there is some fresh lava land in Hawaii he can buy real cheap! Once that babble wears off I suspect that OW will turn into one psyco babble! <p>So be aware, be prepared and be careful!<p>Keep posting and take care of you!<p>Hugz,
L.

this is complete insanity. why would anyone encourage lorisue to stick around and take this crap from her husband??? he's only treating her the way she's allowing him to--and will continue as long as she does so.<p>does common sense not prevail on this board?? what is this place that encourages people to stay in such horrible relationships??<p>i don't find the literature here to be logical. in this day & age a marriage does NOT need to be saved at all costs. especially if the cost is a woman's self-respect and dignity.<p>i've never seen such subtle woman-bashing before OR so many people so willing to follow blindly such ridiculous advice!!! sure, taking a bunch of CRAP from a cheating husband will keep him around and eventually he may REALIZE how much you really love him, but if he doesn't know that already and is willing to belittle you and your feelings---WHY THE HELL WOULD YOU PUT YOURSELF THROUGH SUCH MADNESS???<p>this place sounds like a cult. y'all are breaking my heart with this desparate talk. it's sad to see so many people willing to put themselves on the back burner to accommodate a selfish, inconsiderate, manipulative, ignorant [censored] in the name of 'saving a marriage'. UGH!

Man I really screwed up! I got mad at him yesterday because he would not listen to me and to make a long story short I called her. I was not mean to her just told her how I felt. She had no idea that I was pregnant not that it probably would have made a difference. Anyway they said their goodbyes and H says he is not going to contact her again but I don't believe that. He says he hates me and wished I was dead but he can't afford to leave. I told him last night that he could stay if he was willing to work on the marriage but if he was going to continue with her to leave until he was ready to make a commentment. I know I did things really wrong but I just acted out of anger before I stopped and took a breathe. What do I do now. H left last night and drove around for a while then called me and wanted to know if he could come home for sex even though he hated me. I let him. Probably not a good idea either I don't know! I want to save our marriage so desperatly I don't know what to do. Please let me know anythings I should do.

Lorisue,<p>Please disregard the KG's poster right above yours. This person is babbling and unfortunately not for your good. Part of what she is saying can be taken as well intended but her true intent is yet to be seen. I am not sure what her reason is for being here but marriage does not seem to be a priority for her at the moment. <p>Now as far as your situation. Ok, you have stated your boundaries. He hates U? Hm.....ok, under any other circumstance when someone tells you that what would you do? <p>Mad s3x?? This dumb line of reasoning has happened before. Don't be such a willing participant. You are not being bad or LBing by refusing such treatment. <p>Now spend time seeing what it would take to be together and separated. Step back and look at all your options. He needs to do the same. <p>What happened is that you are forcing the A to end. This makes him angry. Why? Because he does not or is not ready for that. Yes, contact and more anger between them can continue and that in itself will hurt again. <p>So now you move forward, take care of yourself. This should be a happy time for you not sorrowful. Tell him that. Tell him it is his resposibility to take care of you & the family as your H. Then let him decide how. <p>Avoid talking about the A for now. <p>Hugz,
L.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by kittygirrrl:
<strong>this is complete insanity. why would anyone encourage lorisue to stick around and take this crap from her husband??? he's only treating her the way she's allowing him to--and will continue as long as she does so.<p>does common sense not prevail on this board?? what is this place that encourages people to stay in such horrible relationships??<p>i don't find the literature here to be logical. in this day & age a marriage does NOT need to be saved at all costs. especially if the cost is a woman's self-respect and dignity.<p>i've never seen such subtle woman-bashing before OR so many people so willing to follow blindly such ridiculous advice!!! sure, taking a bunch of CRAP from a cheating husband will keep him around and eventually he may REALIZE how much you really love him, but if he doesn't know that already and is willing to belittle you and your feelings---WHY THE HELL WOULD YOU PUT YOURSELF THROUGH SUCH MADNESS???<p>this place sounds like a cult. y'all are breaking my heart with this desparate talk. it's sad to see so many people willing to put themselves on the back burner to accommodate a selfish, inconsiderate, manipulative, ignorant [censored] in the name of 'saving a marriage'. UGH!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>You know something, when I found out about MB and Dr Harley's suggestions to save marriages, I thought exactly the same way you did. But upon closer examination and further reading, I came to the conclusion that I was wrong and in fact that if I had known about these principles and techniques a long time ago that just maybe I could have had a good marriage and not divorced.<p>If the MB, it's related forum boards, and its members that subscribed to MB's principles, offends you, then I would humbly suggest you temporarily leave and become knowledgeable with all of MB because your ignorant comments do no good to others who are trying their best to give an honest and intelligent effort to salvage their marriages.<p>Joe

Lorisue, <p>Jawdropping story. Unbelievable. Don't know what I can add. <p>Orchid is right, they probably won't stop seeing each other. You should step back, and be ready for anything. <p>Plan A involves some boundaries. You should figure out what those are. Plan B does not mean it is over, it is just a way to protect yourself. I have read other posts where even Steve Harley recommended an "immediate Plan B" before a Plan A. Mad SEX is close to rape in my opinion, been there done that, it is a test to see how much you will put up with. Don't be a doormat. It is hard to find line between doormat and Plan A getting started. Get to MC, or IC if nothing else. <p>This is definitely MLC -- radically change his approach to life being polyamorous!!! EEEEEEK! <p>But you certainly sound calm and focused. Gosh. I am still just shaking my heard. Not experienced enough to give you much advice, but to say take care of you!

<small>[ February 07, 2005, 09:30 PM: Message edited by: hanora ]</small>

Should I tell him he has to move out until he can treat me better? I am going to tell him unless he will go to counceling he can't stay here. If he and I don't get help I don't see how any of this can be fixed and quite honestly I am starting to wonder if this man wants any relationship he is in to work. He has been married before 2 children from that marriage after that he spent his time suducing married women because they were easy prey then we got married. I am just so confused. He can make anything anyone says or does look like they are dumb and they are out to get him. I suppose I am just venting some here but I am so frustrated with this man right now I don't know what to do.

My 2 cents....<p>- Hmmm... he states he loves you so much, and now he hates you so much - clearly fog talk. Ignore it.<p>- All of his e-mail - oh so fog talk. Ignore it.<p>- The whole polygamy thing - fog talk. Ignore it. (Earlier in this mess, my WW had joked about this on more than 1 occasion. She was clearly trying to be funny about it. I wasn't laughing. Just wanted to let you know that you're not alone!)<p>- Yes, mad sex. Interesting concept. Talking about cake eating. He's in selfish mode to the extreme - my WW has been there for a long time. It just goes along with the A. So ignore it.<p>Remember that 100% of what WS say and 50% of their actions are seriously suspect in an active A.<p>So by ignoring these things, it allows you to focus on yourself, focus on your Plan A - which I personally agree is essential for you right now. You've just started this - I've been at it for about 5 months and just starting to see promising signs of the fog breaking up a bit.<p>The tough love thing has a time and place. But you MUST give Plan A some time. This is my prediction: he will say more and more things like you see in this e-mail. It'll get worse for a while. But since you're in Plan A, you're not LB'ing him, or giving him a reason to start hating you. So he'll start to lose his negative energy towards you. Eventually, he'll start saying things like, "I know you're best for me", etc. - but still won't be ready to commit. He'll test the waters of reconciliation on his own schedule. Just keep focused on Plan A and be an observer. It'll be fascinating to see him change.<p>The key is that the A must die its own naturual death. But during that time, I honestly believe the following will help - help you, that is:<p>- Be happy. Again, it's about getting yourself out of pain, and so live life to the fullest you can! (Side-effect might be that WS notices you moving on and makes him a tad worried that his cake eating adventures might just end - that it just might be out of his hands! Trust me - my WW has been a firm believer that she "Wants it all" too - her own words. I know she doesn't want to lose me - she's said that too. So seeing me living independently - I think has been a very good thing!)<p>- Don't let him walk all over you. You don't have to BE a doormat in Plan A, although it certainly feels like it at times. Being strong and independent (but friendly) goes a long way to making you feel better, and he'll notice that as part of your Plan A. <p>- Don't ask him to move out. It's far, far easier to Plan A when living together. He'll see your changes much more easily. I know it's hard to do. Know that Plan A is the hardest thing you'll have to do in your entire life - hey, it only gets easier from here!! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: J.R. ]</p>

Loriesue, good for you. There's nothing like standing up for yourself.<p>You know, Plan A is a fallback position. Go look at what Dr. Harley says about recovering from an affair-- first the affair must stop. Plan A is for those tragic times when the WS refuses to end the affair like a decent, moral person who just had a lapse in judgment.<p>I don't think it violates MB principals for you to ask your husband to calmly discuss with you the top needs that each of you have right now, and decide together whether each of you can attempt to fulfull the other's. If your top need is for counseling, and you can't stand the thought of living with him without it, so be it. If his top need is to have his harem and you can't put up with that, well, thems the breaks.<p>Not everyone can pull off Plan A. In some situations, it isn't practical. I doubt seriously that Dr. Harley would tell you to expose your unborn child to whatever might be brought into your home via your husband having sex with another woman. Is it then a LB to refuse to have sex with him? Is it a LB to insist that he use a condom? Do you see where this is going? Plan A is only for those who are in a situation, and have the emotional capacity, to be calm and loving in the face of mental and emotional abuse. Maybe a pregnant woman with three children under the age of 5 isn't in a position to do this.

Anyway they said their goodbyes and H says he is not going to contact her again but I don't believe that. <p>And you shouldn't believe it. I would not have been surprised if you had refused him sexually, that he would have been calling her instead...<p>He says he hates me and wished I was dead but he can't afford to leave. <p>I say his financial situation is unfortunate but honestly not really your concern. Right now you should be concerned with you, not him.<p>I told him last night that he could stay if he was willing to work on the marriage but if he was going to continue with her to leave until he was ready to make a commentment. <p>Very good! Whether you realize it or not, this was likely one of the more rational things you have done regarding this issue. It was not until I told my wife of my plans for plan b, and forcing her to live such, did she finally change. In the vast majority of cases, plan b is necessary. Plan a simply is the ground work of a successeful plan b.<p>I know I did things really wrong but I just acted out of anger before I stopped and took a breathe. <p>I think you did right. So what if you were a little angry in your contact. *shrug* It was minor. At least now the OW is aware that you are a real person. It was two days after I emailed my FWWs OM that he dumped my FWW. I became "real" to him (I think) and it was no longer such a fantasy that he was doing this to a marriage.<p>What do I do now. <p>My advise, read Love Must Be Tough and follow it to the letter. I will detail why shortly.<p>H left last night and drove around for a while then called me and wanted to know if he could come home for sex even though he hated me. I let him. <p>Absolutely not a good idea, you just basically told him that it was OK if we was still running around -- that you would have sex with him anyway.<p>Additionally, his behavior is so immature it is laughable. He hates but wants to have sex with you???? He is either addicted to sex or he respects you SO little that you would use you just to get his rocks off.<p>You want to know what to do? Regain and demand the respect you deserve. No one will give it to you unless to require such. Your H will never make the choice you want him to -- no contact, respecting you, loving you, appreciating you, etc -- as long as he does not respect you. I think it is quite clear right now that he does not do so.<p>First step: create a lifestyle for yourself, with appropriate boundaries, that does not allow others to disrespect you, or if they do--if they cross that boundary, that they suffer the appropriate consequences of such.<p>I see you as being in a very strong position to move to plan b/tough love. The very difficult part will be to do so positively and to stick with it as long as it may be necessary.<p>Only you can make this decision. From what I have read, I think you would be successful with asking him to leave and to ending any contact with him until he changes his behavior. The guidelines and requirements for recommitment are up to you.<p>Please be aware that do so will likely sending him running to the other woman -- he seems like he would be very afraid to be alone as evidenced by his selfish desire to have sex with someone he professes to hate. My guess is that the OW will find him very suffocating in no time and will send him packing. I doubt, unfortunately, that he will end it himself but he may prove both of us plesantly wrong on that one.<p>I can tell you this, if I was in his shoes, I would certainly never respect a woman that lets my stick my member in her just after I told her I hated her and wished she was dead. I don't state this to hurt you, I state this to help you understand how your "loving acts" actually harm your chances of recovery. If I was a heartless SOB that did that, I would actually laugh at how "sly" I was to be able to manipulate/guilt you into do what I wanted.<p>Don't be his doormat.

One of the arguments my WW used after the affair to justify it, even 4 months post-A and no contact: You were always my number one and i never stopped loving you
I said to her: allright but for me at the moment, nr 2 stand in my way for my love for you, sorry I'm still crying and hurt and angry
Sometimes i wonder if they will ever get out of the fog

this is all about the GUY being wrong all the time. One wonders what the WOMAN was doing all this time? There is NO EXCUSE for adultry. But its funny what type of behavior women will allot themselves. THAT CHEATING MAN didnt cheat with HIMSELF did he? there was a WOMAN on the other side of "that" wasnt it?

Sherrod, <p>What????? "this is all about the GUY being wrong all the time. One wonders what the WOMAN was doing all this time? There is NO EXCUSE for adultery. But its funny what type of behavior women will allot themselves. THAT CHEATING MAN didn’t cheat with HIMSELF did he? There was a WOMAN on the other side of "that" wasn’t it?"<p>What on earth is this tirade about? This is not “about the GUY being wrong all the time.” Are you suggesting that if a woman were to do what her husband is doing, than people would side with her? You don’t know this crowd very well. The conversation here concentrates on Lorisue’s husband because he is her only concern. The OW is peripheral and means nothing to her. <p>Let’s face it, we all know that the OW is doing something very wrong. But she is not our topic.<p>Sounds like you have some real anger issues with women. This will not serve you well in repairing your own marriage or moving on as a healthy individual.<p>[ May 13, 2002: Message edited by: zorweb ]</p>

Oh sweetie (I hope you don't find that condescending) I feel for you. You have so many little ones and a baby on the way, like me. You are very strong to continue Plan A. Just know that if you ever get to the point where it is compromising your unborn baby or your children it is OK to say "I am strong, but I can't handle this." I have to make that call every day and only you can do it.<p>Also, I only read page one of these posts but just because he has shared certain things with you and been "painfully honest" doesn't mean that is the whole truth. WSs often tell partial truths, even painful ones, in stages or as a means of distracting you, making you think you know it all. You may not. I would insist on protection if you have sex even though you are pregnant.

Lorisue,<p>There is nothing in MB that says you should roll over, be a door mat and let your H walk all over you. <p>Your first priority is to protect yourself, your children and your unborn child. Having sex with an adulterous spouse puts you and your unborn child at risk.<p>A person can Plan A wonderfully and yet set some basic boundaries. Plan A is meant to be done for a SHORT time while the BS negotiates with the WS to end the affair and agree to work on the marriage. Most people cannot do a good plan A for more then two weeks with an on going affair. <p>Nowhere in MB does it say that you should tolerate an open, on going affair. Nor does it say that you should tolerate being emotionally abused. <p>I also agree that there is something really wrong with the ‘angry sex’. Amongst all of the varied advice/input you have received here there are some good ones about setting boundaries in Plan A. And if you cannot protect yourself in Plan A, then go to Plan B. <p>Yours is a situation that I think really would benefit from input from the Harley’s. While many WS do try to continue an affair after d-day there is something fundamentally different here. It’ s your H’s attempt to openly set up what looks a lot like a harem, and then actually threatening you if you don’t go along with it. <p>I believe that the Harley’s would help you sort through this.