Had a date with H on Monday - nothing exciting; we were both very tired and it showed. Not in a LB way, but more of a "I-can't-hold-a-conversation" way. I, personally, was exhausted. We did, at one point, sit on the sofa and chat for a few minutes. I asked him if he remembered a few weeks ago...I asked if he would ever feel comfortable spending the night again and he said "yes, I'm sure I will". He said, that he did remember that, so I asked if he meant it. He said, in a rather enthusiastic way, that he did. Then said, "but I need to have my things with me if I'm going to do that." (meaning a change of clothes, etc...) I smiled and said, "of course". <p>So kind of a good thing, really.<p>But now it gets weird. I think I understand it, but it still hurts.<p>H visited our mutual friends this week. I heard through the grapevine that OW rang a few times and H was *very* uncomfortable on the phone with her. Apparently the conversation was him convincing her that he wasn't ignoring her calls and if she had rung, it would have shown up on his display. She texted him and rang him all night. LB or what? Our friend asked him what he was doing for V-day and H said he was "probably going to OW's". No surprises there, then. Doubt he'll even bother to tell me. Whatever.<p>Today, I rang H and asked if he wanted to do something tonight. I asked with no expectations, but was delighted when he said yes. We made plans to meet up near his place and go for a bite to eat and few drinks. <p>Enter the Car. H *still* hasn't got his car back after he smashed it up in Nov. We both think they are lying to him about the repairs and we can't understand why it's taking so long. It's *really* getting him down. I spoke to some friends in the car insurance field today and they gave me some very good advice on what to do with a lying mechanic. I then talked to H about what they said. He then said he wasn't sure if he was in the mood to go out. Said he was really annoyed with the mechanic and very angry about not getting his car back yet. I said I understood and he said he would think about it. <p>I was going up to shop near his house, anyway, so sent him a text when I got there to tell him that a friend of ours would help him out with the car problem. He sent one back saying he wasn't in the mood to go out. I rang him and asked if he was okay and he was very short and angry. Said he was p*ssed off about the car. Only problem is, when H is angry in general, he tends to take it out on me. I, in turn, take it personally (something I need to work on!). So I asked him if I had done anything to upset him. He snapped back at me that it wasn't me, it was just the car stuff. I didn't rise to the bait, just said that I was only trying to help and be his friend. He said he had to go (translation: I've just yelled at you and don't want to have this conversation anymore) and we hung up. <p>He texted me a few minutes later and said he was sorry for snapping, but why did I think it was something I had said or done. I replied that I understood and was just trying to be a friend and help out and instead I was snapped at. Then said it was cool and thanks for explaining. Then he got defensive and texted saying he only snapped because I asked if it was me who upset him. I replied again, that I understood and if he wants to talk, I am here for him. Told him I loved him. <p>Now, this is EXACTLY what he did at Christmas. He knew he was spending it with OW. He knew it would hurt me. So rather than take the blame, himself, he found reasons to get angry with me. Then turned it all around and said things like "you make me stressed out and uncomfortable". It's a total joke, really. I think he's doing it again. V-day is next week. I've not brought it up and neither has he. But he obviously knows what he's doing and doesn't know how to tell me because he knows I'll be hurt. So rather than accept responsibility for his own Bullsh*t, he blames me and turns me into the bad guy. <p>The good news is, I was as sweet as pie. I think, because I knew what was going on, I was able to Plan A and be understanding. The complete opposite of what the "Old" VE would have done. By not rising to his bait, I haven't given him any ammunition to fire his blows with. <p>So I guess this is just a vent, really. I needed to write it all down and see it and really understand it. But I would also like to know what you all think. Am I right on target here? Also, I think OW is a huge LoveBust Queen. How long before he gets sick of it? <p>Still have the weekend to look forward to. One of our friends is coming to visit and we're all planning on going out together - it will be weird, as we've not done anything as a "group" since D-day. I'm excited and nervous all at the same time. <p>
Anyway, if you've read this far, then thank you!<p>love,
VE

And they say WOMEN have PMS!<p>Seems like he has a cycle going and all you have to do is chart it and you won't have to take it personally. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]

VE, it sounds to me like you did great. I think you probably understand how your H's mind works better than he does himself. You learned from your experience with him at Christmas, and now you know better than to take the bait when he snaps at you. He might still be able to trick himself into believing you had something to do with his decision about how to spend V-day (amazing how WS logic works [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] ). But the important thing is that you'll know for sure that you did nothing to push him away.<p>As for the OW being a huge LB queen, I like to say "give her enough rope, and she'll hang herself." Let her continue to LB at will, and eventually she'll wear out her welcome.<p>VE, have a great time this weekend!<p>BP

VE,
I think you're doing great...and, as far as the OW having enough rope to hang herself...give her a little more...Don't you think he'd love a new shirt for VD? Maybe delivered a day or two early?
Just thinking some devious thoughts!!!
You go, girl!
T

Thanks you all! I really need the support - despite knowing what is going on, I still feel like a pile of poo. <p>Tried to ring H a while ago, just to say I love him and hope he's okay. His phone is turned off. VERY strange - especially since OW won't like it one bit! Quite interesting, really. He never turns his phone off - I mean, goodness...OW might ring and we wouldn't want to miss that, would we? (was that sarcastic enough?)So maybe they're arguing? <p>Re: Early VD gifts. I've already got H some lovely prezzies. A very naughty book of short stories, and I found the most amazing silver arrow which is very heavy and about 12" long. The head of the arrow un-screws and you can put a rolled up love note inside of it. It's fab! Going to wrap it all up and deliver it to him with single red rose. <p>But then I've got that little devil on my shoulder saying "he doesn't deserve it, you fool. Don't get him anything".

VE,<p>I like Twyla's idea, but to go a step further and a bit more expensive ... how about an engraved watch? One that's just stellar where he won't be able to resist wearing it in front of OW. (Hee hee)<p>21 point Font Engraving: "Forever Yours, VenusEnvy"

How about this, make some plans for Valentines day yourself... even if its just going to the library and let it cauually slip that you will have to do your getting together on some night other then Thursday cause you have plans then... no mention of VD. <p>I think you are exactly right about the distancing and anger, he has to push you away, because he doesnt want to be confronted with the problem of you haveing any expectations on VD.

Not that I have much to offer, I just wanted to say I agree with Lora. Don't be available for VD. If he calls, let the machine get it and call him back later to let him know you have plans. Turn the tables on him and let him know how it feels. After all VD is a whole week away and a whole week of you keeping your cool and the OW making lots of LB's can be a wonderful thing!!!<p>Keep up the good work, you're truly an inspiration!!

Thanks again, everyone. As it turns out I DO have plans for V-day. I have an old friend coming to visit, and he just happens to be flying in on V-day morning. When he first told me of his flight plans, I had doubts - I thought I should probably leave myself open in case H wanted to do something with me. I quickly came to my senses and figured if he could break my heart at Christmas and New Year, he will do it again on V-day. Why wait around for that?<p>Yes, it hurts. Yes, I've already shed bucket-loads of tears over this. But I will be strong and keep praying and keep my positivity flowing. Apart from that, I'm *really* looking forward to my friend coming to visit. Haven't seen him in 10 years and we used to be the best of friends. It really will be fun and I know I need it right about now. <p>hugs
VE

Interesting how you know your H better than he knows himself and far better than OW will EVER know him... Hang in there! You have two thumbs way up from me...<p>He will get sick of OW's LBing so long as he has PLENTY OF TIME SPENT on the receiving end... Let the ole LB Queen have at it! No rush. I like what carolkh said, when he comes back, you want him back for good, no moving in and moving out and back again wrecking your nerves... Nothing against the strong MBers who could handle all the waffling, whatever it takes, but since you already know OW is LBing, that's a good thing! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>So, keep taking good care of you and keep up with your plans to go out and do stuff either with friends or simply enjoying your own company. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I was just telling another MBer to mail herself some nice cards! Hmmm... no signature necessary, either! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

You could sign the card... "from an admirer..." and leave on your kitchen counter somewhere where he would see it.<p>Well, it's true! We admire your MB efforts and so should YOU! You could say you got it (the idea, shhhh) from a friend--ME!

that is wonderful that you really do have plans. Are you planning on telling him or are you just not going to be around. If you are planning on telling him, are you going to tell him who your plans are with or let him wonder.<p>Seems like a perfect opportunity to put some CAROLKH into effect and let him wonder for a while. Just a thought.

V,<p>I haven't been able to keep up with you and where you're at - however, this sounds like the OW is starting to LB. It's a tough time for you - I know only too well - but keep at it.<p>If the chance arises to spend some time with H on V-Day, I'd do it. Be real sweet and romantic - that'll do the trick nicely [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>take care of YOU,<p>- Freddy

You guys are awsome! I LOVE the card idea!<p>And no, I'm not planning on telling him my V-day plans as it's really none of his business. Besides, if he knows that I will be out doing something he'll probably think I'm not hurt about his plans, which I am. And if he knows that I'm having fun with a friend, his guilt will be minimized. ie: "I can go out with OW because SHE is going out, too...so there!" Yes, I DO know him better than he knows himself. <p>I'm going to leave him alone today. He's definitely going through it at the moment. Heard nothing from him all morning (very unusual) but just got an email saying they went to view the car (which I arranged for him) and then bullet-pointed everything that still needed to be fixed on it. No "hi, how are you?" no "bye, see you soon". Nothing. Just bullet points. [slapping my hand to my forehead]. <p>VE

Okay, everyone. I'm off for my night out with H and our mutual friends. I'm scared to death, but feeling very confident and, if I do say so myself, looking GOOD! I know he's going to be nervous, as well, since this is the first time we will all have been out as a group since D-day. It will be odd, but I'm going into it with a great attitude and no expectations.<p>I'll report back tomorrow and let you know how it went!<p>love,
VE

VE,<p>i agree completely with your thought that he doesn't deserve anything for valentines day!! i'm still appalled at this advice to put up with a disrespecting man and waiting around for him to 'see the light'. find a man that you DON'T have to play games with. how is all this manipulation good for ANY relationship??<p>you're playing him, other woman is playing him, and he's playing both of you. and each of you thinking you have the upper-hand because you're able to play each other. WTF?<p>madness, i tell you. absolute insanity.<p>if you have to play a man and win him out of manipulation--how is that even remotely close to an honest, loving relationship???<p>i've never felt victory out of allowing a man to disrespect me...have u?

Hi kitty,<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>he doesn't deserve anything for valentines day <hr></blockquote><p>It's an MB principle not to make judgements of OTHER people's behaviour. You and some other people here are judging the behaviour of Vs hubby and deciding that he's not worthy of a valentines present. That's judgemental behaviour and could be seen as an LB. During a good Plan A we should avoid LB'ing. Only V can determine if not giving a present would be an LB.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>i'm still appalled at this advice to put up with a disrespecting man and waiting around for him to 'see the light' <hr></blockquote><p>That's another judgement this time against Vs hubby and against V herself. V isn't waiting around. She's recognising her own faults and working on changing her bahviour. She's also committed to her marriage and her husband, that's why she's trying.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>how is all this manipulation good for ANY relationship?? <hr></blockquote><p>MB is about taking responsibility for our own behaviour and our own decisions. It means realising that our behaviour MAY have contributed to the break down of the realtionship BUT it also might not have done. We don't take responsibility for the A - that wasn't our decision. <p>The tools at MB are a set of principles which guide us through A process of rehabilitation. There are many others. Sometime the MB way will work, sometimes it won't. Because uit's an MB principle to continually work on ourselves, by defintion we are better people at the end of the process (if it ever ends that is). What we NEVER try to do is create a result or manipulate an outcome - that's outside the bounds of MB.<p>good luck in your search for happiness and a great relationship.<p>- Freddy<p>[ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: Freddy ]<p>[ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: Freddy ]</p>

Venus, I am telling ya, you are being WAY too accessible to your H. He is getting TOO much emotional nookie from you. I know how you felt, I would leave things "open" just in case too. But you need to STOP that.<p>The advice abt having other plans on V-day is perfect. And since you actually DO have plans, that is even better. Also best not to give details to your H...let him wonder. Maybe someone else can let it slip to your H that your other plans are of the male variety. Just be vague to your H, "meeting with friends; or I have plans with a friend." DO NOT GIVE YOUR H details, like this is just a platonic male friends, etc, etc, there is nothing going on. JUST LET HIM WONDER.<p>Ok, go for it!<p>Carol
PS. H and I are doing so well. He has signed us up for another marriage enrichment type dinner at church...this from the man who wouldn't crack a relationship book and thought counsellor's were the scum of the earth. I am in heaven......(sigh)

Freddy and Carolkh, thank you for your thoughts, wisdom and advice. All read, absorbed and taken on board. <p>Carol, I will be going back and reading through your threads; if I recall correctly, you are the "Success Story Goddess". Divorce-Busting, wasn't it? I've just bought the book and am looking forward to it. Thank you for your honest. <p>I'd like to thank you as well, kitty, for your honesty. Everyone here is entitled to their point of view and I read yours with interest. I've also read some of your other post and can see where you are coming from. Can't say I agree with it, but that is really neither here nor there.<p>Love,
VE

hello venus - I been following your story. I have one question; I agree with Kitty and some others here in some ways. You have been doing a very good plan a - but I can follow along on how it's taken a toll and takes a toll out of you. One week up and one down. That is usually what happens when you use manipulative behavior. Another problem is, that say your WS comes home tomorrow and declares his undying love and dedication to you ... would you trust it or would you feel that it's on shaky ground because the past few months have not been honest to how you really feel and how you've been hurt. That hurt isn't going to go away and unless it's delt with will turn into resentment. That's usually where unresolved hurt goes. I don't know if any of this makes sense but all I want to say is .... if it's not ture to you in the most basic sense ... if it's done to get a response ... IT WILL EVENTUALLY BACKFIRE... one way or another. So maybe one way to stay ture to yourself which is what a REAL plan A is all about is to ask yourself ... why am I doing this ... if your answer if pure say if your answer if because I love him and I want to do this for him EVEN if he loves someone else ... then that's not manipulation it pure love ... but if your answer if because you want behavior A from you to lead to behavior B from him you and anyone else on this board who's doing that is only setting yourself up for failure.