Snow White, it sounds as if you are already doing exactly the right thing. I think I understand from your last post that the two of you are in marriage counseling -- or is it just that he agreed to go to a counselor? And you are living your own life while spending quality time with him. You're dating! You're having a courtship, which you did not have before you married. Going from being friends to being lovers is not really the same thing. Let him court you now. You say that he's willing to wait. You need to give yourself time to see if you fall in love with this person.<p>The hardest part will be letting go of the past baggage. Not forgetting it-- that would be foolish. But not wanting to punish him and hold him accountable every day for the stupid and hurtful things he did in the past.<p>One thing that struck me in reading your story is how betrayed you felt because he had sex with your friend after declaring his love for you but before you accepted him as a lover. He demonstrated from the beginning that his emotional connection had nothing to do with sexual gratification-- or at least, that he could feel sexual attraction even if his emotional attraction lay elsewhere. His behavior throughout your marriage confirmed this. Does he acknowledge it now? I don't mean has he apologized for being a rotten person, but has he recognized that this trait is morally wrong and a threat to any stable, loving relationship the two of you might hope to create? And what is he willing to do to change that aspect of himself?<p>My advice is to take your time. Unless you are sure in your heart that you never, ever will want to be with him again, take the time to let love and trust grow. People do change and they can grow up if they want to.<p>Since he's in such a conciliatory frame of mind, ask him to complete the Emotional Needs questionaire, if you haven't done it already, and use that as a springboard to very openly discussing what each of you needs from the other. Tell him what you need and give him the opportunity to provide it for you, and then see how it makes you feel.<p>[ February 10, 2002: Message edited by: Charynne ]</p>

Charynne, you hit the nail on the head! Once I realized that this man could pledge undying love and then be sexually attracted to someone else, the doubts grew. Though we talk about this emotional-sexual duality often, he does not see it that it is so, even though, as you say, he has proven this to be the case often in our marriage. It's this ethical point on which we can't seem to see eye to eye. <p>We were in counseling together for eight months. I thought it was a positive experience, but it only made me more determined to be on my own. I suppose I'm simply spent. And the love, as I said, did one day just die. <p>As for right now, I guess we are courting, in a way. We'll see how it goes. I know it would benefit HIM (since he's the one who really wants the marriage now) if he were to one day turn around and tell me that I was not insane all of those years. If he would acknowledge at least what OTHER WOMEN have admitted about him. That would make me feel like I was being taken seriously, as an adult. Should he seek treatment for SA? Maybe. That would have to be up to him. I have heard a lot of confessions from him, but when he then tells me he is now "fine" and ready to be a good husband... it gives me pause and I don't want to go there. <p>Thanks for your insightful response. I want to show it to him and maybe your words will somehow make more sense than mine have. <p>Snow<p>[ February 10, 2002: Message edited by: Snowwhite ]</p>

It sure sounds like you've already made the conscious decision to move towards a D. It is wonderful to read the changes that your H is showing to you now, but possibly too late. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Yes, our recovery here is going well. Still some ups and downs, but I figure that's par for the course.<p>One of the things I have discovered myself NEEDING to do now, is to make continuous CONSCIOUS DECISIONS to work things out, to do as best I can to let go of the anger towards my H for the hurt I allowed him to bestow on me. And let me tell you, it's DAMN HARD to do!!!<p>Thanks to MB, I also stop to think about whatever unhappiness I feel, and wonder what it is that "I" need to do to make me better (instead of blaming my H's actions - although I do realize that there are times that he has been doing some LBing).<p>It sounds like you have already experienced many years of that. You've made the changes within yourself, and followed through with actions that have bettered yourself (like schooling, and all around confidence in general). Kudos to you! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>One of these days I'll share my story on here. But to be quite honest with you, for one, I'm not yet ready to deal with it 'in my face' again, and two, I'm just too tired at the end of each day (my only computer time tends to be at night - never during the day when the boys are up).<p>I hope you plan on staying on here, no matter what the outcome of your M is. You have had so much experience, and you could help so many on here with your insight.<p>Karen

Karen, I don't know if it's necessary for everyone to deal with it in this "in your face" way. I will be the first to admit that I really, really know how to carry a grudge. I have a hard time letting go of hurts. I will also acknowledge that had my husband just been a sh*t for ten years, minus the infidelity, this would all be much easier to let go of and we would still be living under the same roof. It sounds like you're letting go. Okay, maybe a piece at a time but you're well on your way. This little "project" of mine has really allowed me to take a step back, look at it, examine it and start letting it go. Yes, it may be too late for my M, but I'm at the point where I don't care about that, so long as everyone ends up "healed" in the end. I feel like we've been through a war and now need to re-assimilate!<p>Still, if you ever feel the need to get it all out, I'd love to see it. Esp considering how similar our H's behaviors were. I wish I had had more of your resolve in the begining, and we might still be together, still be two parents under one roof. I admire your strength and commitment. <p>Oh yes, I'm staying here. Lots of healing to be done and lots to be learned here. <p>Off to work!<p>Snow<p>[ February 11, 2002: Message edited by: Snowwhite ]</p>

Dear Snowwhite,<p>We have been leading parallel lives. I am amazed at the details in your story that SO closely mirror my own. <p>I`ll give you some examples.<p>I wasn`t my H`s boss but in his eyes my career was more impressive than his.<p>I also had clues that my H had some trouble with bounderies when we met but stupid me chose to overlook them.<p>My H was VERY convincing that he was a terrific person and was going to make a great H and father.<p>We also got pregnant at the time we married.<p>I did not/do not drive. We live in the country and until very recently I too was stuck far from friends and family. I took driving lessons and passed them but my H insists that I am too nervous to drive. I get upset to easily. He thinks this because the few times that I drove with him he started yelling at me and I lost my concentration. He has told me that if I do ever learn to drive that he will never allow me to take the kids in the car. <p>My H was NEVER home. I also was told go just go out and "get a life" and not to depend on him to spend ANY time with me. I was a stay at home Mom after my son was born so I was only leaving the house and getting out in public for literally ONE HOUR a week to do the groceries and even then my H was ALWAYS mad because one hour of his time was too long, he wanted to get me home so he could go out and run the streets. I was positively miserable. This went on for YEARS.<p>My H also had a ONS, supposedly because he was drunk, (her too) it also was supposedly just about the sex and yes he too did it right before I gave birth and lied about it until I worked up the guts to make a phone call and get confirmation three years after the fact from a third party.<p>There are also MANY red flags that other stuff went on, yes I have a lipstick story too, except it wasn`t on his clothes but a tube of garish slutty deep purple lipstick that I found in our car that my H insists was dropped by his sister or an old maid family friend. Yeah right!!! <p>My H also comes from a dysfunctional family although that fact was well hidden at the time we met and married. My FIL was running around on my MIL for years and finally dumped her for his OW after thirty years of marriage. My H didn`t see that one coming and was thrown for a loop.<p>My H also a an EA woman. She also knew about his ONS, he told her (that makes my blood boil) and she too was "put out' because he slept with ONS woman instead of her. The EA woman was also "top quality" ex stipper, drug addict, alcoholic ect. ONS woman is an ex biker chick. <p>My H is an addict. Other than the ONS episode when he was both drunk and stoned his problem is not with booze, it`s with pot. Alot of his running around was so he could smoke. I do not do drugs nor am I much of a drinker. <p>Snowwhite, my H treated me like dirt for years. he was never home, verbally abusive, not only did he not spend time with me on birthdays or anniversaries I NEVER got one gift or card. NOTHING. My H also gave any extra time that he had to EA woman. There was never any left over for me. He insisted that he loved me, that I was the only one. I would hear this when he would get into bed at night wanting sex. Other than those few mintues when he wanted something from me I did not exist. His words did not make sense to me. How can you love someone and not want to be with them or make them happy in any way shape or form? He almost had me convinced that I was crazy. Those few minutes pre sex he sounded so sincere.<p>It would seem to me that our H`s have popped from the same mold. <p>When the ONS was uncovered I no longer wanted to be married. The ONS was rock bottom for me. I had put up with alot but that was the limit for me. My H desperately wanted to stay married. I didn`t hold out much hope because he had known that I was miserable for years but did nothing to change. This time though he understood that I had had enough. I had my bags packed and was ready to go. <p>I have been on MB for almost a year now and I am going to share with you what I have learned about my H and his problems. My understanding of his problems has come from MB, other articles I have read on the web, AA, and my H finally opening up to me and telling me what has been going on in his head and in his heart.<p>MY H is an addict. He kept it well hidden for years and denied it but it`s in the open now. It looks like your H has a drinking problem too. A marriage cannot be repaired until the addiction is addressed. The addiction is only the tip of the iceberg though. The dependance on the pot caused my H to spend alot of time away from home. He had to hide it. His ugly moods and need to escape from the house were caused by his great need for his next fix. He knew he was sneaking around and that it was wrong and that fact caused him to feel very guilty. That guilt also pushed him further away from me and our children. The more he lied to be able to smoke his pot the easier it became to lie. He started lying about all kinds of stupid inconsquential things. He was hanging out with a very bad crowd who were doing stupid destructive things. He did not have any "normal" friends and so his view of life became skewed. He couldn`t really have normal friends though because he had chosen to be a drug addict so he had to find others of his ilk to share his smoking. He knew all along that what he was doing was wrong but his need for pot was just too overpowering. He felt like he wasn`t good enough. He felt incapable of being a good husband or father. He was scared. The pot relieved his fears even if only temporarily. It was his medicine to cope. My H has some serious self esteem issues.<p>When I became pregnant with our second child, (this was the pregnancy he cheated) he was really frightened. This is also the time we found out about his father`s A. My H reached an time low. He was not there for me at all, attended no doctor`s visits and he was extremely ugly to me throughtout the pregnancy. He was smoking more then than ever before. By that point of our marrige I understood that pot was a big problem but I could do nothing to change things. <p>The pot caused my H to go off the deep end. He thought smoking would make it easier to cope with his new responsabilites but it only made him become what he FEARED he was. Does this make sense? <p>Like I said the pot was only the tip of the iceberg. The REAL problem here is why my H felt the need to escape with pot in the first place. He has a very controlling critical father. He was working for his father for the first several years of our marriage and got a daily dose of put downs. My H has always felt that I was better than him. He thinks that because I come from a family with money, was older than him, had what he thought was a better job than him, had more schooling than him, that I was somehow a better person than he was. He felt beneath me. A very hard thing for a man to swallow, don`t you agree? I think that this is the reason that he was so cold and nasty to me. The pot magnified all of this because I didn`t smoke, another reason that I was better than he was. The ugliness he displayed towards me was his way to bring me down to his level. So was his ONS.<p>So he used pot to feel better than himself. That`s what pot addiction or alcoholism is all about. An attempt to deal with life`s problems and to feel better about yourself. His ONS was about that too, so was his EA. My H used these women as medication, just like he used the pot.<p>My H never wanted to be divorced. He wants to be happy, he just didn`t understand how to go about it. He is starting to understand things now and feels a fellowship with the other AA members. He is starting to understand what has led him so far off the path. Does any of this ring a bell?

And Daisy, they're both musicians. <p>I lost track of you a few months back. I'm glad it's because things were on the upswing rather than the other way. <p>WOW! It's like our H's are twins living in separate dimensions. Where do I even start to respond... there's so much. The addiction is I suppose the main thing. With my H, he gave up the drugs easily way back before we got married. But alcohol was another thing altogether. And, looking back at on it now, so was the sex. He used to tell me that he slept around so much (before M) because he hated being alone. He was searching for something, some sort of connection, but he never found it in all of those annonymous women. He admits the he was lonely and craving affection. It's why I think SA is a big problem with him -- what is it after all but another addiction, another way of coping? <p>After we were married, I sensed he simply vanished, even before his mom got sick. I think it's because he felt I was somehow "better" than him too. I had a great job and he had one which he considered "beneath" him. So he floundered for years... Maybe that's why they cling so hard to music. Being a musician, they get that adoration that they feel they deserve but are somehow lacking in RL. How could either one of us, as a mere mortal woman, fulfill all that that enormous ego requires? <p>My H had the guilt also, which perpetuated itself every time he cheated. He claims (and take what you will of this explanation) that he hated every one of them. They were helping to destroy him. That each and every time he was becoming the worst person he could possibly be. He maintains that this was his mode of suicide. <p>In his FOO, his dad was an outrageous womanizer. Left my MIL for weeks on end to spend time with his wh***s in motel rooms and "buddies" places all over south Seattle. My MIL raised him alone, borrowing money and scraping to make ends meet. Dad would come home, be king of the castle for a few weeks and then disappear again after taking whatever money mom had around. He finally left for good when my H was 14. <p>So why, I wonder would my H do nearly the same to his family? He actually thought of himself as a GOOD DAD until recently. He figured that since he was only gone at night and not for weeks on end like his dad was, that he was doing ok and I should be thankful to have him! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>After reading and rereading your post Daisy, I have to wonder if he's just been flying from Seattle to wherever you are and keeping us both in the air! Are we married to the same guy? <p>I have a question. What has your H admitted to? To the ONS or more? It sounds, from your post, like there is more to tell. I am still waiting for that full disclosure, which I think will never come. The person my H is struggling to become is just too overwhelmed by the enormity of what has happened. He can't seem to grasp that he did this. In fact, he keeps telling me that he is not that person, that he was someone else entirely. In other words, removing himself from himself as much as possible. I don't think that this is healthy, either. Maybe in that existential sense, where we are never the same person from day to day. What I want is what Charynne pointed out in her post -- that he acknowledge that from day one his emotional and sexual existence were two separate things. That one had nothing to do with the other and that it was wrong. I don't want to hear that it does not matter because he is not that guy and he's better now. I want full disclosure and I expect him to acknowledge those times that he tried to convince me that I was insane. And yes, I think he owes me at least that much. <p>Here's another question. Knowing your H's personality, do you think that besides the addictions there were control issues at play? I have a sneakiing suspicion that the cheating also made him feel like he was in control of his own life. I could be whoever or whatever I was trying to be, but he was still a magnet for women and could do as he pleased... Just a thought. <p>I'm going to work now but I hope to hear from you and I'll check back tonight. <p>Snow<p>PS About the driving... I resisted for a long time because I knew that if I drove, it would mean that the little help he was giving around the house (grocery shopping, errand running) would all fall to me and then I'd really be stuck with everything. Sure enough, as soon as I got my license, he stopped going to the grocery store or running errands. Any school functions where one parent might be sufficient fell to me. I was mobile so he was free to leave. He hasn't so much as washed the car or had the oil changed since then.<p>[ February 12, 2002: Message edited by: Snowwhite ]</p>

Dear Snowwhite, <p>No I don`t think your H is flying up here to Quebec, but perhaps they were evil twins separated at birth. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I have read other posters stories and I can see that our H`s particular personalities are not all that unusual. I think the problems our H`s have faced are condusive to eventually winding up a WS.<p>The addiction, the passive agressiveness, the wacky family, the conflict avoidance lying, the "marrying up' on the social scale. These men have self esteem issues.<p>My H`s father is VERY controlling, he tells my sons "if you don`t do XYZ, then I`m not going to love you anymore" MY sons are young. I first heard my FIL say this to my oldest son when he was about two. He wanted my son to sit down and be quiet. My FIL`s method of discipline is withholding love. If he has tried to pull this crap with his grandchildren just imagine what he must have done to my H. <p>My FIL runs his own business and is very well respected in our town. Last year at the height of all of our troubles I got my FIL alone and had a talk with him. At first he was afraid that I was going to tell him that my H and I were divorcing. That is not what I was telling him. I had some things to discuss with him and yes I did admit that my H and I were having some trouble but I did not tell him what. I did not tell him about the pot, the ONS or any of the misery of our years of marriage. My FIL is not stupid, he knew things were not good and had told my H over and over that he needed to smarten up, that he was blowing the marriage. I will give this to my FIL, he is a control freak but he has NEVER tired to control me. He is always extremely polite and deferential to me, has always treated me with the utmost respect. I did not like the things he would say to my H or our sons though. I found him critical and nasty with them.<p>I did ask my FIL point blank what happened with his marriage. It was hard for me to do. I really don`t think that it is my business but I was desperately trying to figure out where my H was coming from, what his home life was like as he was being raised, what he learned about marriage from his parents. The A and resulting D was a BIG surprise for everyone, no one saw it coming, especially my H. His parents had married very young, his mother was pregnant when they were married and I wanted to know if my FIL ever loved my MIL or he just married her because she was pregnant. I wanted to know if they were always unhappy and my FIL had just waited for the kids to grow up before he dumped her. <p>This is what he told me. He did love her with his whole heart when they married. They very happy for several years. Then my MIL did something about 7 years before the breakup. My FIL didn`t want to tell me what she did and I didn`t ask. Suffice it to say that my FIL never recovered from it. He begged her to get counselling but she refused. He says that he gave her a time line of two years to get the help. Eventually he found another woman and dumped her. Now of course my mind is running rampant, what did she do? I seriously doubt she cheated. Did she shoplift, kill someone... what? <p>As I think about this I also think about the way my FIL has treated my sons, my H and my SIL. They have to toe the line with him and do EXACTLY as he says or he withdraws love. So maybe what my MIL did was not something horrible, maybe she just got sick and tired of being controlled and told him where to stick it. That`s a possiblity too.<p>My H has learned alot from his Dad. He is very much like him except he has even less confidence than his father. My H did alot of very stupid things in his teenage years because his father was so controlling. He learned the fine arts of sneaking around, lying, over the top stupid stunts and revenge long before he met me. I THOUGHT he had outgrown it.<p>So this is what I am dealing with, a man who has no confidence, uses passive/aggressive tactics, has a problem with addiction and has a skewed view of love. <p>But my H gets it now. He`s joined AA. He sees that the way he has been conducting his life and his marriage has lead him into big trouble. He`s trying to unlearn the tactics he`s relied on to control me in the marriage. He is now starting to believe in himself. He`s taking steps to make our lives better financially. A couple of years ago my father sold us his company luxury car for a song. We got a fantastic deal. My MIL`s comment when she saw it was "that car is TOO NICE for you" What?????? Where did that come from???I stewed over that comment for a longtime. Then I finally understood. My H has been taught that he is a little nobody and should stay a little nobody. He`s had it beaten into his brain since childhood that he will NEVER BE or DO anything worthwhile in his life. All of those miserable years of marriage he was just fufilling the prophecy. <p>The sex with the ONS, the pot, the EA was just his way of trying to feel better about himself. I think alot of men (some women too) turn to these things as medication. Their need to feel better superceeds their protection of us. That`s when they pull out the stupid excuses for their bad behaviour, "I`m henpecked, you`re not pretty enough, you are trying to control ME, blah blah blah...." It`s not easy for a man to take a good hard look at himself and admit that his addictions whether it be sex or pot or alcohol is a result of his feeling "not good enough" My H had to hit rock bottom, almost lose the marriage before he would seek help. Using a Plan A on my H would not have worked, nothing would have made him happier than to have continued on his merry way and have me bend my self out of shape to satisy him and earn his love.<p>It took several months and alot of long soul searching discussions for my H to tell me what was really going on inside his head and heart all those years of our marriage. But he finally did. He played the blame game for a long time, everything was all my fault. He`s not doing that anymore.<p>I was skeptical at first when he starting telling me about his lack of self esteem, I figured it was just another ploy to distance himself from his bad behaviour. Then I went to an AA meeting with him. I listened to some of the members talk about their lives, the things they did and why they did them. It sounded just like what my H had been telling me. <p>The problem that I am dealing with now is that although I can understand why my H did the things he did I am still hurting. I still don`t trust him. I have the reasons behind it all but I don`t have any reassuance that it won`t happen again. Even if he does successfully change it will never erase the fact that he put me through a pure living h*ll. It`s a catch 22, I know that my H is trying to change, I know that how I feel about him and treat him is going to have an effect on his ability to change. I am sure that my opinion of him after all that he has done is not helping his self esteem one bit. We don`t discuss things much anymore. It brings him down. I know MB says you should be honest in you thoughts and feelings but I also know that when I tell my H what I am thinking/feeling then he feels bad about himself. I`m sorry but I can`t just push a button and no longer be hurt and angry and I will NEVER trust him again. <p>When I think of all that we have to work on and all I have to forgive it overwhelms me. If we didn`t have children I would just walk away from this whole mess.

[OOPP!!! Double post. Sorry for the bold text, I was trying to get fancy and it didn`t work [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ February 13, 2002: Message edited by: Daisy37 ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Snowwhite:
<strong>And Daisy, they're both musicians. <p> Daisy: My H is not a mucician anymore. My BIL is the guitar player. My H did have dreams of rock stardom when we first got together. He played the keyboard and composed his own songs. He was pretty good too. He sold the keyboard a few years ago and no longer talks about being a star.<p>I lost track of you a few months back. I'm glad it's because things were on the upswing rather than the other way. <p>Daisy: I`m on and off because of my job. I`m not on everyday but I do come back regularily.<p>WOW! It's like our H's are twins living in separate dimensions. Where do I even start to respond... there's so much. The addiction is I suppose the main thing. With my H, he gave up the drugs easily way back before we got married. But alcohol was another thing altogether. And, looking back at on it now, so was the sex. He used to tell me that he slept around so much (before M) because he hated being alone. He was searching for something, some sort of connection, but he never found it in all of those annonymous women. He admits the he was lonely and craving affection. It's why I think SA is a big problem with him -- what is it after all but another addiction, another way of coping? <p>Daisy: The sex is just another form of medication/addiction. I will never undersrand why addicts continue their addictive behaviuor when they are the first ones to ADMIT that it solves nothing, makes things worse.<p>After we were married, I sensed he simply vanished, even before his mom got sick. I think it's because he felt I was somehow "better" than him too. I had a great job and he had one which he considered "beneath" him. So he floundered for years... Maybe that's why they cling so hard to music. Being a musician, they get that adoration that they feel they deserve but are somehow lacking in RL. How could either one of us, as a mere mortal woman, fulfill all that that enormous ego requires? <p>Daisy: You can`t fill the void, that`s why the marriages turn into crap. The addict has to figure out how to fill the void THEMSELVES, without medication. The "marrying up" is just another attempt to feel more worthy, I think, but it ends up backfiring. I NEVER thought my H was beneath me, well okay now after all he has done yes but certainly not when I married him. I thought I was lucky he chose ME!!! I didn`t understand the vanishing act either. I sort of do now.<p>My H had the guilt also, which perpetuated itself every time he cheated. He claims (and take what you will of this explanation) that he hated every one of them. They were helping to destroy him. That each and every time he was becoming the worst person he could possibly be. He maintains that this was his mode of suicide. <p>Daisy: I DO believe that your H hated what he was doing and the women he was doing it with. It`s kind of like how my H has described the pot, he needed the pot to feel better and yet he hated the pot because he needed it. He told me that he was SO jealous of people who could just kick back and smoke a little dope for some occasional fun. Towards the end of my H`s pot use and this was BEFORE d-day my H said that when he would smoke he would look at the joint and think " I hate this stuff, why am I doing it? I want to stop but I can`t."<p>In his FOO, his dad was an outrageous womanizer. Left my MIL for weeks on end to spend time with his wh***s in motel rooms and "buddies" places all over south Seattle. My MIL raised him alone, borrowing money and scraping to make ends meet. Dad would come home, be king of the castle for a few weeks and then disappear again after taking whatever money mom had around. He finally left for good when my H was 14. <p>Daisy: So your H doesn`t have good family role models either. He`s just repeating what he has learned. Just like my H. We are all a product of our upbringing.<p>So why, I wonder would my H do nearly the same to his family? He actually thought of himself as a GOOD DAD until recently. He figured that since he was only gone at night and not for weeks on end like his dad was, that he was doing ok and I should be thankful to have him! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Daisy: I don`t get this either. Our H`s are afraid of being good H`s and fathers so instead of making a concerted effort to be what they want to be they GO OUT OF THEIR WAY to to fail. My H likes to compare himself to my first H, "I`m not as bad as him, I didn`t make you go bankrupt and I always had a job" No he didn`t make me go bankrupt and the money always came in but he is actually worse than my first H by my standards because I did not have children with my first H. When my first H screwed up he was only hurting me, my present H has hurt our small defenseless boys with his antics. That`s MUCH worse. I guess it`s a defense mechanism, picking out other people who are just SO MUCH worse. It doesn`t wash with me. <p>After reading and rereading your post Daisy, I have to wonder if he's just been flying from Seattle to wherever you are and keeping us both in the air! Are we married to the same guy? <p>Daisy: Again..Evil twins separated at birth, that`s my theory.<p>I have a question. What has your H admitted to? To the ONS or more? It sounds, from your post, like there is more to tell. I am still waiting for that full disclosure, which I think will never come. The person my H is struggling to become is just too overwhelmed by the enormity of what has happened. He can't seem to grasp that he did this. In fact, he keeps telling me that he is not that person, that he was someone else entirely. In other words, removing himself from himself as much as possible. I don't think that this is healthy, either. Maybe in that existential sense, where we are never the same person from day to day. What I want is what Charynne pointed out in her post -- that he acknowledge that from day one his emotional and sexual existence were two separate things. That one had nothing to do with the other and that it was wrong. I don't want to hear that it does not matter because he is not that guy and he's better now. I want full disclosure and I expect him to acknowledge those times that he tried to convince me that I was insane. And yes, I think he owes me at least that much. <p>Daisy: My H never admitted to ANYTHING. I heard it all from other people/and or caught him at things. Only once was he confronted with indisputable truth did he admit to anything. He piled lies on top of lies FOR YEARS. After every new disclosure I would say to him "okay is that everything? Don`t prolong this, just go ahead and rip the bandaid off ALREADY" He would always insist I knew everything. Then I`d find something else out. Not from him either. The only way I will be convinced that I know everything will be for me to live to be a hundred and have no NEW disclosures. I will wonder till the day I die. I did tell my H that only on my deathbed will I be able to say "okay now I know everything" We live in a small town so if there is anything else it will come out...eventually. A comforting thought. HA!!!<p>
About the emotional/sexual existence, I think that`s a crock unless your H or mine has a split personality. They knew what they were doing was wrong, they knew it in their heart. My H has also told me that the man who did these things was not him. Okay...so who was it then? The guy down the street???? Please!!! Don`t insult my intelligence. It was them, maybe the dark side of them but it was THEM!!! You are who you are and your actions define you. My tells H me that since he only cheated once he`s not a cheater. Really...I then asked him how many people do you have to kill to be a murderer? Classic avoidance. <p>Here's another question. Knowing your H's personality, do you think that besides the addictions there were control issues at play? I have a sneakiing suspicion that the cheating also made him feel like he was in control of his own life. I could be whoever or whatever I was trying to be, but he was still a magnet for women and could do as he pleased... Just a thought. <p>Daisy: Yes I do think my H was controlling me with his actions. He was also punishing me for something. Whenever my H gets very angry with someone gets his pound of flesh. I have seen him do this several times with several different people. What my H does though is figure out something really rotten and hurtful to do to whoever he`s mad at but he does things that are hidden, things he thinks cannot be traced back to him, sometimes even things that the victim doesn`t even know about but are very hurtful nonetheless. I`ll give you some examples.<p>My FIL was very controlling with my H, didn`t trust him and kept my H under his thumb. he didn`t allow my H to go out with friends, friends had to come to his house if they wanted to see him. My FIL smothered my H. So my H to get my FIL back starts smoking pot with neighbourhood boys and then proceeds to commit a series of B and E`s. Evenutally he gets caught. The police take him to see his father. My H tells his father that the reason he committed the robberies was because he was angry at being unable to come and go like most teenagers do. My H never intended to get caught and he did alot of them before he was but he did intend to hurt his father by his actions even though he never wanted his father to find out. <p>My H`s first serious girlfriend cheated on him. My H was so angry that he picked up a hitchhkier one night and had sex with her. He never told his then girlfriend what he did either. He eventually dumped the GF without her knowing about his ONS. He was mad at his GF and got her back without her knowledge. He knew what he did and that was all the satisfaction he needed. <p>These are just a couple of examples, he`s done other stuff too that I won`t go into here to get revenge on people without their knowing about it. This is passive/aggressive behaviour, getting angry about something but not being able to express it in a healthy way. My H gets mad but is unable to confront people so he goes behind their backs. I think that`s what he did with me too, I know during my second pregnancy he was very angry with me, things were bad between us. I was angry with him because he was never home, was getting high as a kite and driving with our three year old in the car and he spent all of his free time chauffering around his bum of a cousin without getting gas money. This cousin had him driving him all over the place daily. We were very strapped for cash, so much so that at one point I developed an infection and was prescribed antibioitcs but didn`t have a dime for the medicine because my H had blown our last five bucks to put gas in the car so he could chauffeur the mooch. I know what I was upset with!!! To this day I don`t know what my high crime was. Yeah I guess that this revenge behind the back could be a form of control.<p>

I'm going to work now but I hope to hear from you and I'll check back tonight. <p>Snow<p>PS About the driving... I resisted for a long time because I knew that if I drove, it would mean that the little help he was giving around the house (grocery shopping, errand running) would all fall to me and then I'd really be stuck with everything. Sure enough, as soon as I got my license, he stopped going to the grocery store or running errands. Any school functions where one parent might be sufficient fell to me. I was mobile so he was free to leave. He hasn't so much as washed the car or had the oil changed since then.<p>Daisy: There are a couple of reasons why I don`t drive, I didn`t drive before I met my H so he`s not the only reason. I have ADD. I didn`t realise it until I was grown. My son is dyslexic and it was while doing research on this that I realised that I was ADD. I have always had trouble with concetration, keeping my focus on things and have always been afraid of driving because of it. I have seen a specialist about it and yes I am definitely ADD but I do not want to start taking ritalin or any other drugs. I don`t like the idea of a chemical messing with my mind. AND my H would make my driving experience very difficult. He does have some basis for being worried about me driving but he should be encouraging me, not putting me down. Alot of people who have ADD drive, it can be done. I just need to get over my fears. My H won`t be of any help.<p>[ February 12, 2002: Message edited by: Snowwhite ]</strong><hr></blockquote><p> [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]

Snow and Daisy,<p>I started reading this at work during my lunch hour. Probably not a great idea, because it's now 2:30 and I'm just finishing, I have been completely mezmerized by every word.<p>My H as you both probably know is also a musician, and I have heard so many similarities in things that have happened and general behavior that my heart is pounding, and I just can barely keep it toghether.<p>One of the things that struck me- among many was daisy's saying "The addiction, the passive agressiveness, the wacky family, the conflict avoidance lying, the "marrying up' on the social scale. These men have self esteem issues."<p>Well, my husband thank God didn't have the addictions, except to women 'friends' and video games and music, but the rest really applies.<p>If I were to be honest with myself I would have to admit that if it weren't for our children, I wouldn't be here either. I've just been through too much. Part of me feels dead inside, I don't know if I ever can recover from all those years when he was so horribly mean to me. Why did I let him do this to me? I ask myself that sometimes, because certainly I allowed it to go on. I kept thinking as Snow mentioned if you give enough eventually you will get it back. Well, it's happening now finally, but now is too late. I've been so hurt, so horribly painfully scarred inside, and I don't know what to do with it.<p>On the surface and from most people's perspective, we are well into recovery, and no doubt he has sincerely changed, he is so different now, and he is everything I ever hoped someday he would be. But, I have tried to talk about how I used to feel with him, and he has asked me not to now, it hurts him, makes him feel bad that he did those things to me, plus he can't hear it and just listen, he feels like he has to solve it- analyze it- get defensive- explain it. Of course none of that helps at all.<p>I don't think he wants to realize just how bad it is, in whatever case it might be, he can't help me with my feelings. I need to talk about it so badly, and I know you guys will understand, I just need to somehow heal this- I need to talk about it and I don't know what to do with it.<p>In two days it will be the one year anniversary of the day when I finally gave up. I went into the bathroom on the evening of the 15th, after he had left for the third weekend in a row telling me he was going to stay at the drummers for the weekend since it was too much to drive home between gigs. (Found out later that the weekend before SHE had stayed with him there and they slept together- just cuddling he says, I say it doesn't matter alot to me it hurts just as much, but I didn't know it at the time, I thought I was losing my mind, and he happily helped me think so).<p>He had been stone cold, mean, angry, hadn't even opened my Valentine's card I spent so much time lovingly picking out- and I had gotten nothing but an 'I'm sorry' yet again that year for Valentine's- along with a miserable arguement in which it was made clear to me that nothing I did was ever going to be enough.<p>I looked at myself in the mirror as I walked into the bathroom that night after he left, and I still remember it. It was as though I was looking at a perfect stranger. I was in the house coat I had come to live in whenever possible, my hair was a mess, my eyes were dark and dead, my skin was horible, I carried myself like I had no self worth whatsoever. <p>I looked at myself, as if I were looking at someone I just met, and this person looked pathetic. This looked like a person that I normally wouldn't even like, let alone want to be friends with. I was stunned that was me. I just looked in that mirror for a few minutes- frozen. Then something inside me snapped, and I knew that was it. I was done. I wanted me back, and he had to go.<p>I called and he wouldn't come to the phone, I told the drummer to tell him for me that he would only need to return to pick up his stuff, and it would be packed for him, I was done. <p>I spent the rest of that night packing up every little trace of him and with every item I packed I felt like I was claiming back a piece of myself. The weight of the world lifted from my shoulders. I was happy, really happy for ME, for the first time in years. I felt so good. I for the first time in my childrens lives felt free to love them like I wanted to. I spent great time with them, playing, reading, talking, and I punished them in ways I wanted to for the first time ever too (I never agreed with his discipline, but it was forced upon me to either do it or listen to his constant critisisim and know that I was confusing the children by openly disagreeing with him, I had very little choice, except leaving him back then, but to accept his discipline methods. <p>I felt good, ... no I felt liberated.<p>That was Friday, that Sunday night I got my first call from him, late at night. He wanted to come home, told me he had been at her house instead of at the drummers. She was, as far as I knew to this point someone he had been around far too much for my liking, I knew she was after him, I knew he had admitted to me that a year before the he had made out with her once, and had immediately told me that he felt awful about it etc.. but he could never have an affair etc.) Told me he would change- work on things etc, and so on, that he had just slept on her couch. I decided that maybe I could give it another chance. But as I hung up that phone I felt a familiar weight settling back on my shoulders, and the dark circles forming under my eyes.<p>When he got home we sat down at the kitchen table, I told him I needed to know everything, the truth. He sat there and lied to me bald in the face I learned later- much later.<p>On the basis of those lies, which I chose to believe I took him back in with open arms and work like mad to try to save our marriage. For the next week, things were beyond perfect, he was so loving, so open, so repentant, so different. We had the best sex ever during that the next 3 weeks. We made love almost every day for at least four hours, and it was intense. The same man who I had thought was starting to have impotence trouble for the last year- just couldn't stop- couldn't get enough of me. I was in heaven, but I was afraid of things slipping back, I wanted counseling, to read books, to take steps to make things really better, not just great sex, but everything, I wanted real change.<p>The more I tried talking with him, being open, taking him to counselors, the more he withdrew in every way but sexual, and towards the end sexually too. The last week, if I walked into the room he practically ran out of it, or else he played video games to avoid everything, especially me all day. He still does the video game thing alot- I think he is addicted. But then it was a palitable thing- I could feel him running away from me, avoiding me. <p>After everything, and especially having felt so close to him while we made love, I still felt that there must be something I could do to bring him back to me. At the advice of our counselor I stopped pushing the last week, etirely. Only occasionaly made an attempt to talk to him at all if he didn't talk to me first. I backed way off. He started pushing for me to push him. He started terrible arguements, acted very selfishly- became a horrible ogre to be around. <p>We tried to quit smoking one day at his insistance- I knew it was a bad idea, but he demanded it. He was awful. He sat and watched Jaws at that point for like the 20th time in 24 hours, and I couldn't take that movie one more time. I tried to coax him to do ANYTHING but watch that movie again, even watch another movie- he stubbornly refused- I got mad and turned off the tv. He flew into a fit of anger and threw the tv onto the floor, threw things around- stormed past me into the next room. <p>The kids were due to be home from school soon, and he was raging, out of control, horrible, I've seen what happens when he is around the kids when he is like that- it's awful the way he would take out his anger on them, yelling at them, making them sit in the corner for hours sometimes for some stupid thing, paddling their butts so hard it hurt me, I was not about to watch that happen, when he is like that it's like Jekyl and Hyde and Hyde was not going near my kids on that day.<p>I told him that he needed to have a cigarette and calm down. He refused. I went out and bought ciggarettes, he refused. I told him he would either smoke or he would have to leave (I didn't get to finish that sentence- I was trying to explain to him till he calmed down because the kids would be home soon). As soon as he heard me tell him to leave that was it- that was what he was waiting for- he immediately jumped up and started packing. I suddenly realized that was what he had been pushing for- the first good excuse to not feel like a jerk leaving, a reason, any reason would do at that point, and I had just given it to him. He admitted to me much later I was right in this assessment.<p>I went in the bedroom while he was packing, very quietly, and pleaded with him not to do this. I pleaded I cried, I was literally down on my knees begging. He walked away, and he left,and I sat there on the bed and just stared into space and cried until the kids got home and snapped me out of it- I don't know how long it was.<p>I felt like I had just ripped out my intestines before his eyes, bleeding over the floor- and he had barely bothered to pick up his foot as he stepped over me and left me there alone to die.<p>But thank God I had my kids, and my family, and my church, and most importantly my faith. I picked myself up within a few days. I kept busy with the kids, and church, and talking to friends I had lost touch with. I started to feel good. I even ventured out into chat rooms, and started talking to other guys on a few occasions. I met a real nice guy online, never actually met him, and it never got romantic, it could have but I wasn't even near ready for that, and any guy that pushed for conversation in that direction I just stopped talking to. But it was nice to know that I was still desirable. That someone would still find me interesting, and want to talk to me.<p>I prayed on a daily basis, I read the bible- alot. I at first would pray for all hell to come down upon him and punish him for what he had done basically. But after a couple of weeks I had a talk with an elder from the church, and though I had never said anything, he told me that God had a plan, but that I had to stop telling God what to do and let Him do it in his own way and in his own time. It floored me.<p>Well, that day I evaluated it- and I still had even the tinyest bit of hope that somehow I could control the situation, and I let go of it. I let go of him entirely. Told God "your will be done', and I meant it, and I started making decisions about how and when I could divorce him and finally just move on. I grew quite happy really. I was content. I had a better relationship with God, and my children, and my friends and family than I had in all the time were were together, and I started to feel like me again. I had plans, I had optimisim, I had my life ahead of me, and I was certain that I was going to be ok.<p>When he called- which was only maybe once a week, I was kind, I left the door open if he should decide to change, I told him plainly that I was still his wife and he was still my husband, but I wouldn't take it aymore, but I didn't push, and I didn't feel like I had much to say other than to answer his questions. I knew I had no control. Knew it in my heart. I had let him go, I trully had.<p>Well, 3 and a half weeks after he had left I got a call from him late one night after I had gone to bed. He said to me things I had prayed for, almost word for word, and I felt in my heart that a great miracle had occured, that he had finally and trully changed. He told me that he needed to come home NOW- or it would be too late. I told him yes, and I was so happy when I hung up the phone. Finally he had really changed, I could feel it. Finally he would be the husband I had wanted, finally we had a real chance.<p>He got home, and I greated him with open arms. I tried to make love with him, but I could feel her on him still- I couldn't do it. But he held me so sweet, and he was, and has been to this day still open to me emotionally in a way he never was before. He always had up this solid steel wall, and finally, it's gone. <p>Over the course of the next two weeks the truth started to come out though- bit by bit at first- and then all at once. He sat one day behind me on the bed so we couldn't see each others faces one day, and he finaly really told me everything he could remember- all the lies, and betrayal, evey nasty little thing he had done behind my back, it was like getting punched in the stomach, but worse... I think you know what I mean.<p>He has been wonderful. He has been understanding. He has taken my anger, my pain, my tears, my panick attacks, everything, and he is still so remoreseful, and still so very different. The old anger- it's just about gone. I've only seen it briefly and to a mild degree twice I believe, in the entire time he's been home, and it was over quickly, where as before he used to stay mad for days or weeks.<p>It's almost a year now since this ride of recovery started, and he is everything I prayed for.<p>So, why am I still so unhappy so often? Why do I still feel the weight on my shoulders? Why can't I just forgive and forget all the pain that he caused me? Why do I still need to talk about all the things he used to do? Why does it still feel like yesterday? And What do I do with these feelings? Will I ever be able to feel liberated and happy like I did when he was gone again? Will I ever trully be happy with him like I felt happy then?<p>Some days I do, but it's always there- just a scratch under the surface, all the pain and tears and fear, and insecurity.<p>The pain of the affair- that is starting to fade. I can feel like trully we are recovering from that. But the pain from the years of emotional abuse and verbal abuse, and anger. I just don't know how to fix that guys. I just want to cry, but I'm at work. I want to enjoy what I have now, but I still need healing, I need to somehow fix this, and I don't know how while I'm with him, that sounds crazy writing it, but I feel like no matter how perfect he is- I can't forget all the pain, no amount of apology or true repentance makes it feel better deep down, in the inner me, in the places I don't look at often enough, I still hurt so much. And to tell the truth after so many years of letting him control me, I still feel like I am being controlled sometimes. They are just my own habits, but they are ones he forced upon me and I blame him for not being able to break them when I am around him, I know how stupid that sounds, but inside I do feel helpless about some things sometimes around him.<p>It's after 4 o'clock now, I've been writing this for two hours, among other assorted tasks that I've had to pause for. I'll be leaving soon, and I'll put this back under the surface again. I'll go home to my wonderful husband and my kids, and try not to think about it, and try to concentrate on today and the future. <p>It helps some to talk about some of it. If I were to talk about it all you would be reading for 9 years. But I read alot of it in what you wrote, so I know you understand, and that feels good, to tell someone that understands. I guess that is what I really want most right now, understanding, venting, releasing.<p>Of course this time of year doesn't help. May God bring about May in the fastest way possible. And thank you to whoever has the stamina to read this and understand.<p>Best of luck to you Snow. In some ways I envy you.

NY and Daisy, I've just read through both of your posts... WOW! But it's really, really late and I have to work a double shift tomorrow. You've given me so much to think about here... and I really want to take my time and respond. Probably tomorrow night. <p>We need 3-way calling, a night without the kids and a big box of Kleenex is what this sounds like.<p>Snow

Sounds good to me- make that a night alone so we can really talk- lol. And the JUMBO TUB-O-TISSUE. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>You know after posting that yesterday- last night I really felt significantly better. It helps just to talk about it without someone interupting you with defensive explanations. Thanks.<p>mackley@twcny.rr.com

Ny, I'm just checking in. I'm off tomorrow (Friday) and will address your post. 12 hours on my feet today and I'm beyond exhausted. <p>I'm sooo glad you posted. Believe me, I know the relief that comes from spilling out those not-so-mundane details, those little things that happened so long ago and yet still manage to sting a lot. Glad it helped to get some of it out. See ya in the AM. <p>Snow

Well, I'm at work today, but it just so happens that I am one of two people in today- so I'm pretty much alone- and beyond answering the phones don't have anything on my to do list. So today is a perfect day to talk. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I would like to start spilling a little- but I'm not sure where to begin or just how deep I want to get into it- due to having plans with my husband for a get away weekend this weekend starting after work today- and I don't want to be totally bummed.<p>Well, on thinking about it- actually after last time I posted I felt better- like lot better- so maybe it is good idea.<p>I'm going to start writing in a new post as this could take me awhile.<p>I'm glad you're home today [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Snow,
You know I love you girl, dont have time to read this as H and I are on our way out. Will be back in 2 days. I am printing it out to take and read. I will talk to you sunday. Please feel free to email me and I will give you my number if you want to call.
Me and you are the sarcastic soul mates here, glad to see you back.
chat sun.

Where to start? I mean there is so much I could write a book, and a long one at that.<p>I guess a good place to start is with the background. Where we are now is due so largely to where we were before.<p>My husband and I are from the same small home town in upstate NY, where we live today in fact, our kids are now attending the same schools that both of us did, and both of my parents did, and both sets of my grandparents (on both sides) did and my great grandparents on my mothers side attended as well- before that is beyond me but I'd bet it goes back a long ways, on my mother's side I have a family tree proving my family has been around the Northeast since the Mayflower. His parents are from a little town just north of here where his roots go back just as deeply, in fact if you follow the tree back far enough we have some really distant relations.<p>Anyhow... We lived 5 houses away from each other as children, but railroad tracks ran between the area. On my side of the tracks was literally all family- my parents built their house where my grandparents barn used to be on their farm, and all the other neighbors around were family too on my side of the tracks- so I seldom ventured to his side, wasn't allowed to until I was much older anyhow, and as such we knew of each other, but didn't really see each other alot through high school. Though we do have a few interesting memories of times we were together because of his dating a friend of mine and a friend of mine dating someone in his high school garage band, etc, but we never dated, and I never knew him well enough to know about the abuses and other bad things that happened to him as a child.<p>I was a wild one, always had a boyfriend, out partying, hanging out with the druggies and the smokers, trying to get the attention I didn't get at home from the guys I was with, and he was a good kid, he hung out in the radio room and the music room, so at that time we didn't have much in common anyhow. <p>In my senior year I got pregnant by my boyfriend who was 4 years older than me, and luckily was a good enough student (through sheer luck of the genes because I cerainly didn't apply myself), that I was able to graduate in January of my senior year, have my baby in May, and get married for the first time in July of 1986 at the ripe old age of 17.<p>My first marriage was ok, but trully doomed from the start just due to my immaturity and lack of skill on how to be married. I tried, I really did. I loved my daughter with all my heart, I was a good mom who immediately settled down and into nesting, but inside I was really just a kid myself, in retrospect it was like I was playing house for about 4 years.<p>But I didn't know about protecting my weaknesses, I didn't know about emotional needs, I didn't know alot really, and as I grew up, I grew restless, and I began noticing other guys, fantasizing, mentally putting down my husband all the time. What made it worse: I was jealous when a friend of mine who had gotten married at the same time got divorced, and she was going out dancing and to bars, and having what at the time sounded like the fun I wanted to be having. I felt cheated, like I was missing out, and my lack of attention to my marriage and flirting and fantasizing didn't take long to produce in reality what I could predict now with what I know now that I'm older. I fell out of love with my husband through no real major fault of his, and I left him after having crossed some pretty serious lines of fidelity with someone I met.<p>Well, I spent the next few years partying hard, living alone, since my ex husband was a good father and he had a good job making actually really good money even by my standards now, and he wanted to keep her, and I felt that would be the most stable place for her. I was the bad guy in that marriage in terms of I was the one that destructed it, but I love my kids and want nothing but what is in their best interest, we decided upon his keeping her mutually and before I even left. So... I was free as the end result, though I found out as I grew up that I wasn't missing out on nearly as much as I thought. In fact I hated single life in no time at all. I blamed myself and got very self destructive in my behavior.<p>I hit bottom eventually. True bottom. Ended up in a place where the only person I had left in the world that would talk to me was my grandmother since I had lied to everyone so many times, and I didn't even have God, since my first husband had converted me to his agnostic way of thinking. I had a $90+ a week pot habit, I had ended up in Wyoming with a guy that was breaking probation being there and running from his troubles who started abusing me, and not one soul in the world around I knew, and I found out I was pregnant.<p>I sat on the day I found out for sure and just cried. I was at bottom, I was humbled, I was hopeless, I knew what a mess I had made for myself. And on that day I found God in the beautiful Rocky Mountains. And, I found my new path, and my new strength. I knew that no matter what it took, I was going to crawl if necessary, but I was going to heal my burned bridges and I was going home, and I was going to straighten my life out, a whole new life, and a whole new path.<p>Another ray of light shined into my life soon after- my grandmother called me, and she offered to fly me home and for me to live with her while I straightened out my life. Thank God for my angel Grandmother!!<p>So, I was home. I started reading self help books- alot. I was cold turkey off all the drugs, and didn't even miss them. I started making plans to enroll in college. I called everyone I had ever offended and started the humbling process of true repentance and healing. No excuses, no one to blame but myself, and a truly changed person to the soul.<p>I started reading about marriage and love and self love, I read the bible daily and prayed as well. I became pretty good friends with God in fact. I started trying to find the church that was right for me, and to meet my neighbors. I was happy just have have every little thing that I had in my life, I was happy to feel like I was on the right path, and determined to never turn back.<p>Through a mutual friend my current husband heard I was back in town, and he gave me a call and asked me out. It was so unexpected, and it was so beautiful. When I was with him it felt so good. We both kept having feelings of deja-voo. Like we had been together before, or had dreamed this, or it was just fate. It felt right. At the end of the first week I knew in my heart that this was the man I was supposed to spend the rest of my life with, and I was determined that this time I was going to make it work, I was ready to settle down into forver.<p>I'll start the next thread now this ought to keep you busy a while... BRB.

I was quite large with child when we started dating, and he was just getting out (6 months after) of his first marriage, to a manic depressant who had left him for another guy. Worse than that, it happened after they lost their only child. They lived in Utah during their marriage, which is where she was from, and he was up here for his brothers funeral (who dies of AIDS), while his wife and daugter were still back in Utah. His wife was outside saying goodby to her Dad with their beautiful little one year old daughter when the phone rang, and she went in the house to answer it. Her father went to leave, and ended up backing over her, not knowing she was still outside, he thought it was a bike, and went forward over her again.<p>That poor beautiful baby was in critical condition, but managed to hang on util he made it back to Utah before she passed away. Just thinking about it makes me cry. <p>Well, his wife being an undiagnosed manic depressant at that time of course flipped out, and ended up leaving him. After years of a roller coaster marriage with her with highs that were bliss, and lows that included the throwing of kitchen appliances and worse, and the loss of a child and a brother, years of physical abuse by his father as a hild, and sexual abuse by several other people as a child as well, my husband was quite a mess inside during that time, but I had no clue as to the depth of it. In true survival mode he was behind a 20 foot thick solid steel wall emotionally at that time. I knew only bits and pieces of it though. I was fairly naive- I grew up in a house with parents that were conflict avoiders and intamacy avoiders, but definitely not abusers in the physical sense just emotionally neglectful would be the worst I could clasify them, but were very protetive of me and shielded me from alot of what the world is like. Sure, I knew about some things, alot of the problems that come from promiscuity and drugs for example, but I had just no clue wat it was like to be sexually abused, or married to a manic depressant, or lose a child, I really didn't know enough of the details about it to be alarmed enough to read into it either. He kept it all very neatly packed away from the surface during our courtship. <p>He was wonderful, he was caring and appreciative of me, he thought I was too good to believe. He was a security guard at that time, not in a band, but I didn't care what he did. We would go driving down to the park and just talk for hours about everything, religion, the Rockies, high school, everything, anything, we never had a shortage of things to say, and the chemistry between us was strong, and the sex was passionate, and I couldn't imagine he could ever be anything but just as wonderful and caring and sensitive to my every need as he was then, and of course I recriprocated with all my heart and soul and effort to make him happy too.<p>The first thing that should've been a red flag to me was just before my daughter was born. We were still just dating at that time. I hadn't been planning on keeping her, I was lookig into adoption so that I could have a chance to go to school and sort my life out, and so she would have a chance to have the family I didn't feel I could provide her. As in love with my H as I was we weren't at that time talking about marriage, and I wasn't interested in pushing it, I wanted to take our time. I was actualy pretty content just in me, and though I loved him, I didn't need him, does that make sense? It was the first time I ever loved someone trully, not because I looking for them to make me happy but because I wanted to make them happy , but I was happy already with me.<p>Anyhow, just before my daughter was born, I decided I couldn't do it. I was going to keep her. It would be hard, but I would accept the public assistance that could help me to still be able to go to school and provide for her it was what I wanted to do. After I told him he started getting more moody and withdrawn. I saw his angry side for the first time. He can get angry for days. It perplexed me, made me go into "what did I do" mode. I was so determined to make this work, I started trying to figure out what I had done wrong and tried very hard to be understanding and pour on the love to try to fix it. He ended up telling me he wanted to date other people, he needed some space- it was too early for him etc... So I let him go.<p>I missed him, I still loved him, I wasn't interested in dating anyone else, but my life went on. I had my daughter, and devoted myself to her and straightening out my life for her. I was ok.<p>A couple of months after she was born I got a call out of the blue from Brian. He missed me, and he was finding out that the other girls he was dating didn't do it for him, he wanted to see me again.<p>Well, it didn't take long to get right back to were we were. Happy and in love and inseperable, and one day quite unexpectedly when we had finished making love he asked me to marry him, and I said yes. We were both a little hesitant to go running to the altar right away, but we soon did find an apartment together and started living together.<p>It's time for lunch- going to go take a smoke break- I'll be back with the next chapter soon.

So- we're living together now. Things are great at first- we both had decent enough jobs, we were very happy, at least I was and it seemed he was too. I made the mistake back then of assuming back then that he felt the same as I did I guess in retrospect. I thought we both were in this forever, ready for it and wanting it. We were engaged after all, and we were so in love, or at least I was, and it was easy to assume from things he said and did he was too.<p>Well, when my new baby was just 4 months old, and we had been living together for just a short time, I found out I was preganant again. I cried, I wasn't ready for this so soon, but when I told him we both collectively agreed that that was ok, we would make it. But he became more withdrawn. He talked alot about his ex wife then and I kept finding out more and more. Like she had tried to have another baby after their daughter died and ended up having a miscarriage and a still born son. He seemed depressed, very, and I tried to be understanding but had just no idea what to do really.<p>Well, we decided to get married and make it official with a new one coming into the scene soon. When I was 4 months pregnant we got married in a quiet ceremony with just immediate family the day after Christmas in 1992. I was 24, he was 25, and when I said I do, I meant forever- no questions, no backing down, no one else, for better or for worse type of forever.<p>Things started changing after we got married. He was alot moodier for one thing, started getting angry alot more and for alot longer. Seemed convinced that I was going to lose the baby, that I would leave him, that nothing would ever work out. I felt like I had enough love and faith and optimisim in life for both of us, and we would get through this.<p>We worked opposite shifts since we had a young one and only one car and day care costs so much. One night around midnight it was time to go get him from work. It was dark out back and the outside light wasn't working, and it was winter time. The sidewalk was clear, but at the edge of the house at the gutter drain there was black ice I didn't see. I fell, fast and hard on my back, desperately using whatever maneuver room and time I had before I hit to make sure the young baby in my arms wasn't going to hit, I couldn't catch myself at all.<p>I started bleeding, and the doctors said the placenta had torn away some, and there was a blood clot forming. I kept going back to the doctors regular over the next few weeks- I was referred to high risk specialists, and one day they told me that the bleeding hadn't stopped and the blood clot was 14 cm large. They had never seen a pregnancy with that large of a blood clot survive, and they were 100% sure I was going to miscarry, and even offered me an abortion before I did even through I was over 4 months along, I think really 5 months along by now. I asked, and they told me that she was ok, right now, and I decided that I wasn't going to do it- I was going to give her a chance to survive, I was just so sure that my husband needed this baby to live in order to have any faith in the world, and I would find a way to make that happen for all of our sakes whatever it took.<p>My husband is Mormon, converted out in Utah but not very active, never has been. But at that time I was taking lessons from missionaries, I was very interested in the church, and I asked the elders to give me a blessing. They did, and I swear I'm not exagerating in any way, I have medical records to prove this. When they gave me the blessing I knew, just knew with complete faith it was going to be ok, I was at peace. Two days later I had an appointment with the doctors for an exam and an ultrasound, and they told me what I already knew quite astoundedly. Not only had the bleeding stopped, but the blood clot had shrunk to only 11 or 12 cm, I forget exactly, but it shrunk. They had never seen this before. And I said, I know, and I smiled, and I knew I was right.<p>
Got stuff to do- will be back.

Well, after that to make a long story kinda shorter let me tell you it wasn't easy, I had strict orders to follow. Strict bed rest except going to the bathroom and going to the doctors I was to do NOTHING, no sex, no housework, no taking care of the baby, nothing. It was boring as hell for me, but I did it. My Aunt took the baby so that my husband could work, and my house turned into a pig stye, but I did it. I was in and out of the hospital many times to stop premature labor, starting at 20 weeks along which was the earliest they could do anything about it, but I wasn't surprised or shaken, I still knew it would be ok and even told the doctors that when they got on my case because when I was in the hospital I was pretty stubborn about using a bed pan.<p>My H though, he didn't take it all so well. He was getting mean in fact. He did no housework except what absolutely had to to find a clean plate to nuke food on and have a uniform for work. He was resentful about having to wait on me when I needed a drink or food. He was verbably abusive, angry all the time, withdrawn. <p>Then one day the pressure to have sex started. He screamed and yelled and ranted and raved for days at a time, called me fridgid, told me I had hang ups, all kinds of terrible awful painful things. I was so hurt. So confused. So devastated. I felt to betrayed and destroyed. I was doing this to save his baby, why couldn't he see that and appreciate it, and just love me? I cried all the time when I was at home. <p>It got so there was no food in our house, we were barely making it financially. He wouldn't do anything to help, it was all my fault and he had to work. <p>I tried to call social services, pantries, but I couldn't go down, and they wouldn't come to me, and my husband wouldn't do it, and I was too proud to tell my family. I barely ate. Whatever food we had I let him eat and I would pick at a little and acted like I wasn't feeling well, he was working, he needed it more than I did. At 6 months almost 7 they weighed me and I was only 1 pound heavier than I was at the start of the pregnancy, even though I was as big as a house with child. They gave me a prescription for ensure, and I was so thankful to have it because medicaid paid for it. It's pretty pathetic thinking back on it, but I didn't complain and I never told anyone just how bad it was for us. I was so glad my daughter went to live with my Aunt by this time, so she was ok.<p>The pressure to have sex continued. Slamming doors, no help, angry outbursts that scarred the bejeezes out of me that lasted seemingly forever. I was glad when I was in the hospital, because I had a clean room and three meals a day, though I was lonely and bored, he only would come in for a half an hour a day if I was lucky while I was in there and then he was gone and I was usualy alone.<p>I started to worry, because of all the pressure to have sex, and he would sometimes tell me about girls at work, and I knew he was being flirtatious. But I had so much else worry about, I tried not to think about it. He swore to me at that time that after what his first wife had done to him that he could never have an affair- the idea repulsed him, and even though he was miserable that he was faithful, and I believed him. As far as I know to this day he still swears he was faithful to me, and I believe it, but that was one of many horrendous times to come. And of of many times that he was nicer to perfect strangers, and friendlier with the girls at work than he was to me. I felt like a burden, baggage, unloved, unwanted, deserted, damaged goods. <p>I want to cry. I think it's time for a cigarette. Be back.

Ok, well a cigarette and a little mediatation in the ladies room, and a cup of coffee and I'm ok now.<p>Anyhow-the pregancy from hell was eventually over- she was 7 weeks early and born via an emergency cessarean, but she was perfect. Tiny as a peanut- 5 pounds 2 ounces, she had fully developed lungs, and only had mild jaundice and to wait to be old enough to suck (3 and a half weeks) before she could go home. No problems whatsoever- in fact she is hardly ever even sick with a cold even to this day, and within a year she was almost as tall as her sibling a year and 6 days older than her. But I knew she would be. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] (Thank you dear Lord).<p>Well, I went home before she did of course, and because I had a c-section I wasn't supposed to have sex for 6 weeks. Well, my husband wasn't waiting that long no way, no how, and I ended up conceding to him after about 3 weeks recovery, it hurt like he**, I thought my guts were going to rip out, but he didn't seem to care. How awful is that?<p>Well of course I wasn't in much mood for a replay right away. So it continued. The verbal assaults, the angry outburts that would last for days. He was relieved some when Jackie came home, it started to be that there were more good days too in between. One day I would wake up and it would be the old him, he was happy and caring and helpful, and I just accepted it and was grateful, then out of the blue one day Mr Hyde would be back. It was awful.<p>I felt like I had given up on my first marriage too easily, and like I needed to try harder to make him happier, to do what it was he needed so things would be ok, that this would pass, give it time. I tried to keep enough love and optimisim for the future for both of us, and I tried very hard to make him happy on most days. I didn't complain to anyone about my marriage, I didn't seek outside friends, I didn't even look at another man, I tried to get him to open up to me, I tried to open up to him. I banged my head on that solid steel wall of his so many times I think I must've gotten brain damage, and he never felt it behind that wall of course. Mostly I just was so happy on the days he was happy, and so depressed when he wasn't.<p>This went on for the majority of our marriage- right up to the affair. Some days were good some were very bad, but to the outside world we were in marital heaven, and sometimes I felt like I just wasn't going to make it. Divorce wasn't an option in my mind, it never crossed my mind. All I could think of was how to make him happy. How to get him to open up to me. How I could possibly do everything he wanted of me. <p>He wanted me to keep the house, do the shopping, pay the bills, work, take care of the kids, make sure he had whatever he wanted, bake- I used to make all of our bread from scratch every day to save us money. I started a job as a full time nurses aide 8 weeks after my youngest was born, he got a job at the same facility shortly after because it paid well. We worked opposite shifts to save on babysitting costs. I would get up and drive him in (with two kids in tow) at 6'oclock in the morning, go home fed, bathe, and dress the kids, make bottles etc for the day, make bread, do the housework and laundry and any running around that had to be done, and at 2'oclock go pick him up- drive him home, and drive like a bat out of he** to work. I worked until 11, got home about midenight usually, and was strung out from the day to say the least. Normally he was watching tv, the kids were in bed with clean diapers, but the same clothes that I had dressed them in that morning on, so I would change them, the house was a mess again, he didn't throw out one thing or pick up after himself in any way unless on the rare occassion I blew and made him, and.... of course you guessed it... he wanted sex. <p> [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>The next morning I got up and did it all again.<p>Not extrememly surprisingly about a year and a half later I injured my back very badly at work lifting a patient, and was told by my doctor he didn't want me to ever return to nursing.<p>I spent weeks in agony, true agony, crying because it hurt so much and the drugs only helped when they knocked me out. Again I was on bedrest. But again he was the same. No help. Resentful if he had to get me a glass of water or check the kids. <p>Well, I didn't have to worry about losing a baby so I did alot more than I should've in the name of keeping peace and taking care of my kids and not living in a pig stye, as much as I physically could. Of course I didn't heal well, I still have problems with my back to this day after lots of therapy and two nerve blocks.<p>Then the pressure started to get a job. The angry outbursts were all about my getting a job, I didn't want to work, I was lazy, I was putting too much pressure on him, he wanted nothing else in the world but for me to go to work. He would have me in tears for days, sometimes weeks. I got out and tried to put out applications, with my restrictions from my doctor and an active comp case, and no further eduacation and no real marketable skill but nursing, NO ONE would hire me, not even McDonalds. I was so depressed. I was getting some money from comp, but that got less and less the more time that passed, I got unemployment for a while too, but of course that didn't last long. I had to go on Prozac, and that helped but I had lost my direction, I lost my focus, I didn't know what I wanted to do, I had always planned on getting my nursing degree and now I couldn't- and with everything at home, I just felt worthless.<p>Eventually I just resigned myself to being a homemaker- I kept the house and the kids and the bills and the shopping. I had to ask for help with the bigger projects, alot of stuff bothered my back terrible, and it was usually akin to pulling teeth. But after a while it just became a habit that eventualy he would get very mad, but he would help me out some after I complained and nagged and cried enough. I never liked it, but I never considered divorce.<p>He started getting very friendly with girls at work. There was one after another. He never did anything physical with them he still says today, but he definitely had some very inappropriate friendships going on. He was very flirtatious. He talked to them about his troubles and what bothered him, all the things I wanted to know so desperately. He was kind to them, the old guy I used to know. A spark in his eyes, and a lousy wife at home that didn't fulfill him sexually and didn't want to work. One girl got too close for comfort for him, wanted him too much started giving him gifts and making it obvious she wanted more and he backed off from her and went to the next. I trusted him, I really believed him when he told me he never could, because I knew after my first experience I never could. Difference was I knew i was capable and I protected my weaknesses, and I saw he wasn't, I was worried, occasionally let him know I was jealous, but in the end I decided to trust him, what else could I do? (Well, I can think of plenty now, but then I couldn't).<p>Time for a break, I'll be back.