I just finished reading your post on lorisue's thread and I'd like to ask why you are here? You obviously don't agree with the purpose of this board and you don't seem to have a marriage that you want to save so what's the deal? <p>In this disposable world we live in the sanctity of marriage is still an important issue. I said til death do us part and as far as I can tell, we are both still living and breathing.<p>I for one don't care to hear your suggestions that we toss the marriage because there are problems in it. If you don't agree with the principals here why bother staying? Click that little X in the top right hand corner and go find something else to entertain you.<p>I'll pray for you because you so obviously need it.

I agree, what is going on with someone that can not see the value in giving your all. SH says in SAA that and A is like a drug addiction, would you let your spouse/child/family kill themselves with out trying to do something? Realize that they are not in control of their lives any longer, the addiction is controlling them.

TD--i agree wholeheartedly with honoring your marriage vows. but, if only one person out of two is doing so, it's no longer a productive union. right? i'm all for saving a marriage that has problems, but i'm completely disheartened at how many women are letting themselves be disrespected at the advice of a doctor! people will treat us the way we let them and here is an expert telling heartbroken, desparate women to LET themselves be broken further by the very person that has caused so much pain in their lives. i think it's sad.<p>DS--i agree that an affair is exactly like a drug addiction in that the people involved will do anything to anyone in order to have it continue. but, there is also a program for codependents involved with addicts that will give you the complete opposite advice. al-anon or coda would never tell you to enable an addiction in such a way that also disrespects yourself and allows the addict to cause even more pain in your life. if you're truly going with the theory that an affair is an addiction and the people involved have no power to control themselves, then maybe you should check out www.al-anon.org and find out the advice that is given there is about letting go of the addict and giving up the illusion that you have any power to control them either.<p>i'm here because this is a topic that interests me. i've been involved in many codependent, destructive relationships and am always trying to better myself. i've had wonderful learning experiences in group therapy and individual counselling that have never involved allowing myself to be harmed further. i just find it appalling that empowerment is not valued here and thought i'd offer the knowledge i've gained from similar experiences.<p>i really see 'plan A' as a way to perpetuate destructive behavior and a way to condition yourself to be okay with it. sometimes we have to just realize that the person we are with is not the right person for us if we demand respect and don't get it. it's alright if that person leaves because he doesn't want to give you the treatment you deserve. it's true that you'll keep him around by compromising yourself AND that a person WILL go on to find someone that will allow him to treat her badly if you don't. but, sometimes we have to value ourselves for more than who we are involved with. and, when we do...we will most certainly attract the people that will treat us the way we long to be treated.<p>just my experience.<p>i only hope that the people who are considering this advice will also research other options and not take this as the ONLY answer to surviving relationship problems. there are, IMO, better ways that will allow you to be satisfied with yourself making healthy choices for YOU--whether that involves staying in a dysfunctional relationship or not.<p>i wish you knowledge, empowerment, and self-respect. best wishes to you all [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Just curious, how many of those codependent relationships were As?

Hi KG,<p>I too wondered your reason for posting. I have read your other posts. You have yet to post your story and seem interested in letting the A continue. You say the BS is allowing themselves to be treated disrepectfully. This part is true, however, now allowing, that disrespectful treatment was already happening since the A is already going on. Now these people here for the most part are learning how to deal with it. They are not creating disrespect, they are working to overcome it. If you are a parent, you should understand this. If you are not, then keep reading......<p>If you are here for the reasons you state then there is much to learn. There is a lot to learn here. <p>Since you have been in "many codependent, destructive relationships" then you know the hurt and pain cycle is a difficult one to deal with. <p>Those who come here to MB learn to step back, see the issues, learn their's is not an isolated case, educate themselves on the tools and ideas available, learn to seek out help and most of all help themselves, their families and eventually their mate. This process is not an instant fix. Some recover quicker than others. <p>All who put the right effort here with the proper attitude do recover. How? 1st for themselves, their families and eventually their mates. The type of recovery varies. But recovery is seen and felt and all levels. <p>So before you bash everyone here make sure you know what you are talking about. <p>I do hope you continue to post here but for the right reasons. This board has taken a blows from others who are not respectful of the marriage and family arrangement. Marriages are NOT to be saved at all costs. Neither are they to be thrown away for any reason. Responsibility for a healthy marriage & family is dependant on all family members. <p>So I invite you to post your story. Read up ask questions, utilize the tools such as phone counseling with Steve or Jennifer, then bring your comments here. <p>I do hope your user name is because your love cats. <p>L.<p>[ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: Orchid ]</p>

it is not my intention to bash ANYONE!! i'm quite willing to learn--that's what keeps me going. it's also not my point-of-view that marriage should be thrown away for ANY reason. i think if you'll read my posts, you'll see that's not the case. being treated badly by a mate does not only happen in marriage relationships, nor does marriage inherently mean being treated badly, to me. i've only commented on individual cases and the theory of stuffing your own needs in order to manipulate the cheating spouse into thinking you're the best choice. i find it appalling that honesty and respect are advised against in order to gain honesty and respect from someone else.<p>what's WRONG with demanding the right treatment from someone?? the only thing i see as the problem with that is the fear that the person will leave. and, if a person leaves you because you demand respectful treatment, well....<p>i'm only offering a different opinion on such matters. surely your friends and family have offered differing viewpoints on your choice to allow such behavior to continue, if that's the case.<p>i've been involved in one affair with a married man, in which his spouse offered to allow him a lover but didn't want one herself. i found it (and still do) appalling that a woman would allow herself to be treated that way. needless to say, i'm no longer involved in the affair, because the man WAS just as selfish, disrespectful, opportunistic as his wife allowed him to be...and i won't tolerate such behavior from a man.<p>actually, i don't see any reason to adopt the relationship principles here in my own life, because i don't feel the need to save relationships that are so apparently unhealthy in my life. but, that's my choice--i've simply chosen a different path to finding respectful love. <p>i just hope that there's at least one woman here who will at least research the other options available to her about surviving dysfunction. other than that, i can agree to disagree and if you're not too offended by differing opinions, i'd like to continue coming here.

KG, I think you have some good points, but I hear them coming out in anger (just my observation from 2 posts I've read of yours).<p>In my situation I have put up with my WH's crap for 2 years. I tried Plan A many times and he comes around for a bit and then it's back to his crap.<p>It has taken me 2 years to figure out that I have been his doormat and yes he will continue to stay in this unhealthy marriage and treat me the way he does as long as I allow it (I said that to him just the other day).<p>I recently asked him to leave, I'm done with his disrespect of our marital vows and to me. But I feel I've fought the good fight! I feel good looking in the mirror knowing I tried my hardest to save this marriage.<p>Some of us just need a little longer to realize the WS isn't about to change! So I do agree with a lot you're saying - it's just individualized!<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Take a closer look at Plan A and B. Plan A is not at all what you think. If used correctly it is all about becoming better and stronger, and if it doesn't work for your spouse it works for you. Then, if you need to go to plan B - you are prepared. I think people react to the term "plan" thinking it is manipulative - but if you read SAA and the info on this site - it should be clear.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Alberta:
<strong>Take a closer look at Plan A and B. Plan A is not at all what you think. If used correctly it is all about becoming better and stronger, and if it doesn't work for your spouse it works for you. Then, if you need to go to plan B - you are prepared. I think people react to the term "plan" thinking it is manipulative - but if you read SAA and the info on this site - it should be clear.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>And if I might add, even if both plans failed and you divorce, you benefit from the changes you made in yourself.<p>How many times have people carried excess emotional baggage and relationship busting behavior to their next marriage? Is it any wonder that 2nd, 3rd, etc. marriages end up in divorce much quicker?<p>I am a divorced BS but I am learning a lot from this forum and it's members. Hell I've even started a quasi Plan A with my xW not so much with the intention of remarrying her but because I have children by my xW and I still need to deal with her because of them and also because I want to be a better man (emotionally and intelectually) so that when the time comes and I meet a woman to share my life with, I will ready for said relationship.<p>Joe<p>[ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: justanotherjoe ]</p>

kittygirl ~<p>I hope you keep reading these boards and the articles on this site with an open mind. Plan A and Plan B are not about codependency or about weakness.<p>I'm a recovering co-dependent, and I used both Al-Anon 12 steps AND the princples of Marriage Builders to recover and rebuild myself. <p>I walked away from my marriage and filed for divorce with the advice and assistance of Steve Harley (thru the phone counseling available on this site). I rebuilt my self-esteem WHILE my husband was cheating on me.<p>Plan A is not about enabling disrespect. It's about making a CHOICE to take responsibility for our own lives and actions and to acknowledge our own role in the breakdown of our marriages. It's about learning from our mistakes, and learning new behaviors, to give our marriages the best possible chance of being restored. And if the marriage can't be saved....well, we walk away stronger, and having learned lessons that will serve to help us in future relationships. <p>Plan A is about taking responsibility for your own life and your own behavior. Sure it temporarily may give the WS a "cakeman" situation. It's not our job as spouses to punish or to force consequences. In fact, to do so IS co-dependent.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>what's WRONG with demanding the right treatment from someone?? <hr></blockquote><p>It's wrong because it is a selfish demand. We aren't dealing with right and wrong. We aren't trying to impose morals and values on our spouses.<p>All we can do is be responsible for ourselves, make amends were possible for our own part in the breakdown in the marriage, and then move on with our lives (Plan B).<p>There is a big difference between setting a boundary to protect ourselves from disrespectful behavior (Plan B) and trying to control another person (demanding respect).<p>My husband did come back to my marriage after 2 very long years....after I filed for divorce. <p>He made a choice - he didn't come back because I demanded his respect, he came back because he saw me change into someone he felt that he could rebuild his marriage with.<p>My boundary (Plan B and divorce) protected me from his disrespect. When he made a choice to stop disrespecting me...then I didn't need that boundary anymore.<p>It's a subtle difference, but a crucial one, I think, for healthy marital recovery. <p>I've now got a husband who treats me better than he ever has in our entire marriage. Not because I demanded his respect, but because I *earned* it.<p>I'm not a co-dependent any longer...and I have Al-Anon and Marriage Builders to thank for it.<p>Stick around and you'll see quite a few hard core 12 steppers hanging around here. The MB princples complement my 12 step program. I hope you read long enough to understand that.

KG,<p>Thanks for responding. Read those responses again, you will find that we do not condone disrespect in fact just the opposite. However, if you don't read the entire message, it may appear that way. <p>You have indicated you are the OW. Married OW or Single? Your situation can make a difference on your viewpoint. With children or without? <p>You can learn and understand regardless of your viewpoint but certain other experiences in life can help you understand more. Even your own OW experience will help. <p>Several of us have been here a while. This is not a quick fix by any means nor is it one sided. The point is that in order to fix it and fix it correctly, time patience and love must be allowed to run a through course. So that one will be able to move forward without regret. <p>As I stated before, there will always be progress and recovery. For whom and when will vary. <p>Just a note of caution: This is a marriage builders site. Most of us here are interested in recoverying our marriages. (no big secret right? - LOL). So don't get offended if some of the stuff here is 'anti-OP'. It is meant to be. However, there all viewpoints here given for the 'right reason' in a respectful manner are always welcome. <p>I put this clause in because (not sure whether you are aware or not), MB has been bombarded by several inciteful OWs in particular. These women have taken 'stabs' at several MBers and 'targeted' many new ones who are still in a great deal of pain to inflict their own wayward ideas. That attitude is not necessary nor appreciated here. Of course that is my own opinion but I have been here long enough to see the hurt it has caused. So talk about disrespect. Yep, it came over full blown from directly from the TOW board (even attacked pregnant spouses). Kinda mean don't you think?
Yet the TOW board does have others that are not like that. I am sorry for the way those wayward OWs have even misrepresented the others on the TOW board. <p>So I hope you are not of that sort. If not, then you are welcome to post here. No, I am not the moderator. I am just another poster. <p>L.

When I was married I use to get angry with my W because of her irresponsable and immature behavior (running up long distance charges in the hundreds on a monthly basis). You want to know what it got me? nothing and I even managed to push her away to the point where we just stop any effort of communicating. She started a friendship with a man that would listen to her without judging her and soon afterwards the friendship turned into an affair.<p>Now while it is true that she cheated on me by consciously and willingly entering into an A, I created the environment that made it possible for her to do so because she was always afraid that I would blow up in her face. So I too had a hand in the M turning bad.<p>But now that I do not get angry at her (even when I feel like very much doing so) and truly listen, she and I have a better relationship than when we were married.<p>I am convinced that if had known about MB and applied the principles early in my marriage that just maybe I would have had a better marriage and avoided the uglyness that caused it to break up.<p>Joe

<p>[ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: Charynne ]</p>

Kitty didn't say she IS an OW, she said she WAS. I certainly hope, Kitty, that you learned more from that experience than just that one guy was selfish, etc. No self-respecting person should get involved with anyone who is married-- that seems much more self-destructive than taking some crap in an effort to save and rebuild a marriage.<p>Also, you may have only read the threads from women who are in Plan A, but there are any number of men posting on these boards who are going throught the same emotional roller coaster trying to salvage their marriages in the wake of their wife's affair. Plan A is not a female thing by any stretch of the imagination.<p>Finally, Plan A isn't for everyone. It is an alternative suggested by Dr. Harley for people who chose to use it. I have yet to see anyone on this board denigrate anyone who decided that he or she simply could not live with an unrepentant cheating spouse.<p>For the record, I am BS who insisted my husband break it off with the OW the night I found out about the affair. He did. If he had not, I think I would have left. But lucky for me, I'll never have to know what I would have done.

thank u all for being respectful of my point-of-view. really. i always appreciate interactions with open-minded people. i apologize if any of my posts sounded angry--but, it's because i was!! i am an xOW and i have learned NOT to get involved in that brand of destructive behavior anymore. but, my belief that people will treat you the way you allow them to treat you and my need to stay out of dysfunctional relationships is older than my OW status--it's not a result of it. (in other words, i have no motives for justifying my own wrong behavior by pointing out other people's faults--that's just ignorant.)<p>i do want to say, though, that i don't believe that demanding respect and setting boundaries are separate, unrelated behaviors. it may be selfish to expect people to give me the same treatment that i give them, but--so far--i haven't met anyone that's organizing protests on my behalf. so, when a man decides to see how far he can push my boundaries (i.e., disrespect me), then i have to stand firm and let him know what i expect from him (i.e., demand equal treatment). if he's unwilling, then i have to force myself to move on without him. i just think life is tooooooo short to waste my time trying to change someone else.<p>i totally support working on yourself in a relationship and growing as a result. maybe the posts i've read are not the norm. but, my heart went out to lorisue and the pain she's in. i was SO upset when i was reading so many people encouraging her to 'stick it out' and even commending her for doing 'a good job' when she's suffering silently at the hand of a man she loves so much.<p>it all makes me want to cry for anyone who thinks that putting up with such horrible treatment is better than looking for someone that would treat u right from the start, or even than being alone...<p>btw, i've been engaged & left at the altar, had serious relationships & been cheated on, had serious relationships and NOT been cheated on, been involved with a married man, had sexual relationships without emotional attachments--now, i'm just a single, celibate mommy of elementary-age kids hoping to someday meet mr. righteous.<p>again, i appreciate all of you and your struggles. i'm sorry for flying off the handle, but it upsets me to see people being treated badly. i HAD to say SOMETHING...